Newbie Invasion

[Calion]

Well, I personally think it's better that you find out in game yourself.

Hunter, in any other case I would agree with you. But not this one.

Picture the situation: A rank newbie (possibly new to MUDs in general) enters the game. He has absolutely no idea what he's doing, except that he's read most of the files on the "Introductory information" page, has created a character, has printed out the Walkthrough and is holding it in his hand as he trepidatiously makes his first steps into the wonderful world of Armageddon. The point of a walkthrough is to give a complete newbie something to do for the first half hour of playing, and give him the sense that he has some remote idea of what he is doing. I don't really care what the walkthrough says, whether it is buying equipment or killing a rat. But the instructions should be detailed enough so that the player doesn't have to learn more about the game just to be able to use the walkthrough!

I tried to use the walkthrough. I failed. By the time I knew my way around well enough to use the walkthrough, I had learned enough that I didn't need it. The bit about PROMPT was the only part I used.

2) Asking other pcs where to find such places gives you an opportunity to get involved with others from the start and can actually provide some entertaining roleplay.

This seems weird to me. Supposedly my character has lived here his whole life, yet he has to ask someone to find out where to get some water? ICly, this is bound to look strange and possibly arouse suspicion. Seems probable that I would be accused as a spy from a warring city-state.

Armageddon doesn't have a newbie channel. It doesn't have a gossip channel. OOC is discouraged. The only ways for a new player to figure things out are through good documentation or being lucky enough to find another player to take him under his wing (which is what happened to me).

I tried to get on ARM several years ago. I loved roleplaying, and was a huge Dark Sun fan. A perfect candidate, it would seem, for an Armageddon player. But after I entered the world, I had almost no idea what I was doing, there was no one else around, and I wandered around for a while getting completely lost until I gave up and quit. I don't want this to happen to other promising newbies.

Sorry for the rant.

Calion

[Jherlen]

As another person who's just started about a week ago, I guess I'll chip in some too.

I agree with a lot of Calion's comments, really. About the docs: They've been -great- for me to read and look up as a reference, and were very very helpful in making my background. I managed to find my way to the Bazaar and buy new clothes on my own as the walkthrough suggested. Beyond that, though, I was sort of lost for my first few hours.

My suggestion would be to enhance "help map" just slightly. Maybe put the locations of somewhere besides the bars to find food and drink (since I read in another thread that eating bar food isn't the best idea -- why is that, by the way?)

One thing about being told where to find stuff by docs... It's pretty reasonable to think a resident of Allanak would know where to get food and water. But I don't think every resident of the city would know everything about it. Allanak is a big place, after all. My character's boss has been giving me assignments to go run around and find out what things are and where I can find them in Allanak, which is a great way to RP *and* get me knowing more about the city, IC and OOC.

- ALSO, another thing with help map - it doesn't even show the Bard's Barrel on it! I'm kinda surprised by that, given the level of activity that that place seems to see.

- I definitely like Calion's idea. Maybe for easier typing though it could just be shortened to one character, like a +, as in...

emote sings a silly song as ~kid fall+ into the gumball machine.
Target sees: The short oompa-loompa sings a silly song as you fall into the gumball machine.
Others see: The short oompa-loompa sings a silly song as the fat kid falls into the gumball machine.

Same thing, just now we dont have to type 3 characters. I'm lazy.

- Echoes for our own look actions would be immensely helpful, too.

Despite the harshness of the game world and the emphasis on no OOC communication in game, I've been finding the staff, the docs, and the players very helpful. You guys are doing an awesome job.

[jhunter]

This seems weird to me. Supposedly my character has lived here his whole life, yet he has to ask someone to find out where to get some water? ICly, this is bound to look strange and possibly arouse suspicion. Seems probable that I would be accused as a spy from a warring city-state.

You can ask these sorts of questions in a way that would make a bit more sense ICly.

Rather than asking: "Where can I get some water?" Which sounds odd if your supposed to have lived there. How about:
"Where do you think you can get the best deal on water?" Sounds alot better icly and will get your OOC need met most likely.

There's more than one way to do things. Anyway, I don't mind that you disagree with me, it's just my opinion of things as I've seen and experienced  them. I personally explored, asked around and figured things out myself. I've seen several newbies in game do the same thing and it provided some entertainment for those involved. So you can go find out from a walkthrough with no interaction with others...or you can be creative and figure out ways to go about it ICly and create much more enjoyment.

Everyone is different, some people like to be handed everything, some like to figure it out.

In alot of cases, it's not the destination that's the fun part...it's the journey getting there.


I'm just trying to open you up to the idea that you may be missing out on something by not putting forth more effort into figuring it out IC rather than getting the information OOCly.

Anyway, however you go about it....welcome and good luck!

[Anonymous]

Caliton


I would agree with you that it seems odd that a person that lived in a place all his/her life would not know where to get water. But.. Asking that is also a newbie flag (as most spies already know).  Also by asking in game you will be amazed at how much people will offer to help you get started.. Just don't leave the city with them.

Yeah it's kind of IC weird, but.. maybe you hit your head or.. just can't seem to remember the right shop. Or you are from the south side of town and don't really come up into the main city drag all too much.  There are lots of excuses you can use to smooth out the IC wrinkles.  

There are things that are just taken as the way things are when anyone starts a new PC.

You will have to work around the learning curve, so even if your PC was a hunter for years, you will have to work around the fact that he can't use a bow for shit in some IC way. It's just how it is.

Aside from that, I agree that when you pick your first city your walk through should give you the basics for survival. Where to quit, where to get water, clothing/armor and food in either city. I don't think we are giving up any Huge IC secretes with those ones. The rest should be left up for exploring and for asking IC.

Also the Byn is not the only place to get hired to learn the robes of the game. It's a good place, but other houses can be just  as fun. I would say pick a house that you a -lot- of players around in your play time and try to get hired there.

One more point is there is an OOC chat area. The IRC Channel, the link can be found in the OOC forum along with the IRC room guild lines.  We don't discuss IC info there but you can talk to other players and we do sometimes have very Generic discussions about the game. That said, we are also all pretty policing on what is discussed in the IRC room.

Also please make use of the helpers list. These people are always available to answer questions and offer advice. But that Mansa kid is crazy...

Anyway.. that was a great response that you gave, it was the exact kind of answer I was looking for. I'd like to see more of that from the other newbies. No we are not a Newbie friendly mud, but that doesn't mean we couldn't get better at it.

I hope you stick with it.. You will find out that the world and the players will keep surprising you again and again. We don't call it Crackageddon for nothing.

[Calion]

You can ask these sorts of questions in a way that would make a bit more sense ICly.

Rather than asking: "Where can I get some water?" Which sounds odd if your supposed to have lived there. How about:
"Where do you think you can get the best deal on water?" Sounds alot better icly and will get your OOC need met most likely.

Really good ideas. But something that is not going to occur to most newbies. This is the sort of thing that should go into the initial documentation. I would just like to see a clearer path, starting from the main webpage, to get new players on a confident footing.

I agree it's lots better to figure things out yourself than to be spoonfed. And people certainly don't have to use the walkthrough. But for those people who do want it, I think a step-by-step intro would be a good way not to scare off newbies.

The Gods might be able to help answer this: How many new players get on once or twice and are never heard from again?

Calion

[Bestatte]

Room descriptions are pretty good at getting you to the right spot. The map shows you exactly where the merchant's quarter is, and within the merchant's quarter is exactly what you'd expect to find: merchants. People who will buy and sell things. There's a grocer outside that quarter, but there is also an NPC who will sell food right in the market there.

As for water, I am certain I've read in the docs somewhere that it's available on the way to the merchant's quarter from the Gaj. The room descriptions will let you know when you're close.

Most of what you seek regarding "where do I find..." are easily available by reading the room descriptions. It's kinda hard to get lost in Allanak. The rooms tell you where you are, and where Tek's spire is in relation to where you are. If you remember that Tek's spire is more or less southeasterly, you should have no problem finding your way around, based solely on that and nothing else.

As for commands, there is a new mechanics page, but unfortunately it's buried within a doc within a doc. Here's the URL:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/mechanics.html

It would seem you should be able to link to it from the "general" section of the main site, but that isn't the case. You have to go to the "general" section, and then to the "ooc" section, and THEN you'll find the link. Hardly intuitive, which is a shame since that was the whole point of the mechanics page.  But it should be a help to you in any case. Oh and don't try reading it with Netscape v7.x. For some reason it's coming up as a blank white page. Works fine on Internet Explorer and Foxfire though.

Good luck, and make use of the Helpers. They love this stuff

[John]

There is an emote emulator, but the link appears to be broken for me (is that the case for anyone else?).

Yes this is the case (unfortunately). I'll try to get it fixed.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The Gods might be able to help answer this: How many new players get on once or twice and are never heard from again?

I'm not a god.  Hell, I'm not even a staff member.  But I would expect the answer to that question to be a lot.  A whole hell of a lot.

You see, the hardships that newbies inevitably come across has nothing to do with the inadequacy of the website.  Perhaps it can be improved, I wouldn't know.  I never had any problems with it, so I imagine it has little to do with the website itself and more to do with perception.

But anyway, the reason that we retain so few newbies, and will continue to do so, is because of the game.  We can make the website prettier, we can make it even easier to use than it already is, we can have more helpful features than we already have, and it still won't change that.  The learning curve is steep, and it's easy to die if you don't know what you're doing.  In the end, you either stay, or you don't.  If you do stay, then it's something to be proud of.  That's all there is to it.

[sarahjc]

Dammit, I am the kank a few posts back.. Again..  

I am always the kank.

Anyway, that's my 2 ceramic.

Calion

Great newbie experience feedback, Calion, thanks for posting.

[Seeker]

(perhaps a mentor would have been of some use here?)



:waggles some fingers in a subtle wave to ~sarahjc slyly.

[Xygax]

(perhaps a mentor would have been of some use here?)

I think a mentor system would be a turn-off for a lot of people who just wanna do their thing and get started.  That's not to say we shouldn't have one; as it will be a boon to the people that are inclined to use that sort of thing.  But I absolutely don't think we should rely on it or make it manditory in any way.

I think a better approach is for us to take considered feedback like Calion's, and do something with it.    (and I agree with Ness, it's been very useful)

-- X

[sarahjc]

I don't think a mentor should be mandatory either. The idea was to give an -offer- for a mentor at first character creation.

Something that says "We know you are new, we have assigned this person to help you. You are not obligated to use them, but if you want to, please inform us so that we can let the person know and contact them by these means."

I agree that being forced to take a mentor would be a turn off for a lot of people when they make their PC. But I don't think a non-intrusive personal offer is bad. I'd bet that after playing for 15 minutes, at least half would wish they had someone to talk to that can help them, then go back and request the offered service.

The idea was to let the new player know that they can get help without feeling like a bother to the imm's. By offering a singular person or a couple it makes it a bit easier to get questions answered in a timely fashion by knowledgeable resources without having to brave the boards. It is also takes out the fear of  "Stranger Danger" by making the introduction to the already shell shocked new person to their Helper/Mentor instead of them having to pick from a list of strange people they do not know, thats if they even know about the helper list.

On top of that I think you'll see a bit more player retention with this type of system. Even if it helps to keep just a few new people, isn't that worth a try?

[Bestatte]

Would need to be coded in some how..similar things I've seen in other games maybe.

Helpers would be given "Mentor" status in the game. This would allow them to toggle on or off their status (so if they're deep into some heavy duty RP they don't have to feel pushed into running off to help someone).

Newbie enters the Hall of Kings - could be the first -or- second character for that account. They pick the town, and are transported to a "limbo" room in that town, before entering the character-spawn location. Mentor gets an auto-send from the system saying "Newbie has entered the Allanak Limbo. Would you like to help?" They could "wish system yes" or "wish system no" and if it's yes, Newbie would get the blurb saying that so-and-so has offered assistance. System asks newbie if they want it, and a yes or no would prompt the mentor.

The whole process from the Newbie picking the town to the Mentor showing up would be a matter of seconds.

[Calion]

I would agree with you that it seems odd that a person that lived in a place all his/her life would not know where to get water. But.. Asking that is also a newbie flag (as most spies already know).  Also by asking in game you will be amazed at how much people will offer to help you get started.. Just don't leave the city with them.

Actually, that's another thing. The initial documentation makes it very very clear that Zalanthas is an unfriendly place, and every other person you meet is likely to want to kill you.

Fine, great, wonderful. Armageddon is a harsh, gritty, realistic world and that's why I love it. But that attitude does not encourage newbies to go up to the first person they see and say "Hi, how's it going, hey I need some help here!"

I did find out, much to my surprise, that many players were quite friendly. But it took me a while to realize that saying the wrong thing wasn't going to get me instantly killed (usually).

I don't know how to fix this. Perhaps a note in the newbie docs along the lines of what you said above?

Calion

[Calion]

The idea was to let the new player know that they can get help without feeling like a bother to the imm's. By offering a singular person or a couple it makes it a bit easier to get questions answered in a timely fashion by knowledgeable resources without having to brave the boards. It is also takes out the fear of  "Stranger Danger" by making the introduction to the already shell shocked new person to their Helper/Mentor instead of them having to pick from a list of strange people they do not know, thats if they even know about the helper list.

On top of that I think you'll see a bit more player retention with this type of system. Even if it helps to keep just a few new people, isn't that worth a try?

I like this. something to serve the purpose of a Newbie channel. Of course, an actual Newbie channel (perhaps one-way, like Wish--that is, you ask a question, you get an answer, but you don't hear others' questions and answers) connecting you to whatever Helpers are in-game would be the easiest way to solve this, but not necessarily the best.

Calion

[sarahjc]

Bessy,

I wasn't even really thinking of that codewise in game, more of just another note added to the approval email. Not that I am against that, but I am not sure how much imms are concerned with control over the game there.. If there would be a helper channel of  communication. Much like how the Imm channel works. That would be cool. It would also cut down on a lot of the OOC breaks in character for questions newbies ask and need explained in game and would also cutting down on the lost/I don't belong feeling a bit.

You could have your helper account and your ordinary account with the option to log in or out of the helper account as you choose.

You could make a helper command

When the Newbie has a question they could type:

Helper Bestatte  Can you please tell me how I can talk –to- a specific person?

And either get back something like

Your helper is unavailable type Helper all to see about an alternate guide.

OR

Bestatte has received your message.

This line of OOC communication would also be helpful is a helper clearly spots a struggling newbie.

Again, this cuts down on breach of character and disruption of Rp.



Calion,

No we do not post a newbie friendly sign. And that is because if we did, all newbies would be prancing out the city gates with that nice elf they just met that doesn't speak sirihish so good.

Nah, I'm kidding. But the world itself, the code and all the learning curves associated with it make the game anti-newbie. Also the fact that our players tend to take the Rp aspect of the game very seriously and we don't really like our Rp disrupted all the time.  Our OOC channel is used very sparingly, mostly to help out a struggling player, set up play times and question code issues.  You will almost never see jokes and conversations going on past more than a line or two in our OOC channel. It's frowned upon.

It's not that we are not friendly to Newbies, we're great ... But how the –game- itself is structured that makes it not so newbie friendly.. But you should never be afraid to ask questions IC and OOC.

[sarahjc]

The idea was to let the new player know that they can get help without feeling like a bother to the imm's. By offering a singular person or a couple it makes it a bit easier to get questions answered in a timely fashion by knowledgeable resources without having to brave the boards. It is also takes out the fear of  "Stranger Danger" by making the introduction to the already shell shocked new person to their Helper/Mentor instead of them having to pick from a list of strange people they do not know, thats if they even know about the helper list.

On top of that I think you'll see a bit more player retention with this type of system. Even if it helps to keep just a few new people, isn't that worth a try?

I like this. something to serve the purpose of a Newbie channel. Of course, an actual Newbie channel (perhaps one-way, like Wish--that is, you ask a question, you get an answer, but you don't hear others' questions and answers) connecting you to whatever Helpers are in-game would be the easiest way to solve this, but not necessarily the best.

Calion

And I like you.  

Actually I touched upon this with the past post.. I like Bessy's idea quite a bit.  We could at least start something with out of game communication. But the in game closed channel communication would at least provide some Imm supervision.

[Delirium]

Gamewide channels = bad.

It's a slippery, slippery slope. Please, please, please no OOC channels IG save the OOC command itself.

[Bestatte]

Just keep in mind Calion (et al) I'm not a helper. I'm just a busybody nosey old fart who happens to have a soft spot when the mood strikes.

[Calion]

Gamewide channels = bad.

It's a slippery, slippery slope. Please, please, please no OOC channels IG save the OOC command itself.

Yes. But I'm not talking about a gamewide channel. I'm talking about something that works exactly like Wish--except it goes to Helpers instead.

[Delirium]

I still think it's very important to keep a firm distinction between helpers and staff. A helper is still a player, and thus they are there to roleplay when they're logged into the game. I would hate to see helpers become mini-staff members, having to deal with a barrage of OOC information scrolling across their client screen when they're trying to roleplay.

If they want to be available to help, they'll log on to their helper AIM/MSN/ICQ account or what-have-you. Much simpler and no extra coding necessary. That way, the OOC is kept separate from the game itself - and it's also easier for a helper to be a lot more verbose and link-happy in a chat prog than in the game itself.

[sarahjc]

I think that ICQ, AIM and all those work just fine but a few points on counter:

1. They are not policed and there is no way to monitor what people doing/saying in those channels. You are right Deliruim, helpers are not Imms. And sometimes they can be wrong.

2. I think a helper channel would be a great way to cut down the OOC usage and take more advantage of the helpers in the game as an untapped resource for new player assistance. Cutting down on Imm workload. I'm not saying that they should be allowed to pop in to the room that the other person is in.. But it would be similar to using the way, minus loosing HP.  Person to person without effecting the other players in either person's room.

3. Give it a time limit. New players should only be allowed the helper command for the first 6 weeks maybe?

4. Also the helper has control over what they want to do. Just feel like playing tonight and not being bothered?? Don't log in to your helper account, bored and there is nothing going on at the moment. Log back in it.

[Bestatte]

I kinda see it the same way as sarah. Right now, we have the OOC command. While I haven't seen it abused or over-used, I have seen it disrupt RP in a crowded room of PCs fairly often. Most of the time, it's someone trying to help a new player, and the new player responding. In a room filled with PCs, I can only imagine that there must be at least one or two helpers there, sitting idle at their stools and waiting for their PC's boss, or the guy they're spying on, or the magicker they're waiting to kill. During that time, I can also imagine how awesome it would be if they were able to communicate *as a helper* to the new player, without disrupting the RP of everyone else.

Out-of-game help can only go so far in helping people. Sometimes you really do need to take someone by the hand and go with them, observe what they're doing so you can give them tips and hints on improvement or explain why whatever they're trying to do isn't working.

Also as sarah points out, out-of-game help isn't monitored. In-game help isn't always monitored, but the staff is able to monitor as needed or available. Again as sarah mentions, helpers aren't staff, but when a helper is wrong out-of-game, there's no one to make sure they correct the misinformation. In game, there is. I think that if something like this was do-able from a coding perspective, and obviously at the convenience of any interested IMM, it would be a great addition to the game in regards to player-retention among the newbie population.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I came from a game where there were channels.  One of them was a helper channel.  As a player, I have no desire to see any in game channels, including a helper channel.  Yes, in-game channels have a certain utility.  They're also a massive detriment to your roleplaying experience.  Not just a big detraction.  Monolithic.

Let's also not forget the lovely possibility of embarassing mischannels.  Seriously, Delirium's slippery slope argument is valid.  It will start as a good idea, and end up as cancer.