How to play Dwarves?

[moab]

Dwarves aren't fearless by nature.
They are fearless when it comes to things that are related to their focus - and then again, doing something that will likely kill you before your complete your focus is very bad - so rather than just doing something stupid (because of some lack of fear) they would think it out:

How does this benefit me reaching my focus?
Is the benefit worth enough for me to fail or is there another path?

I think dwarves should come off as stuborn and grumpy very often.  Why?  Because dwarves are, by their nature - working toward their focus - and if you are sidetracking them, then they are they are going to be short-tempered and ugly.  You're getting in the way.  Assist or get on with yourself.

Too often, I think, dwarves are played far more social than they likely would be.  Sure, they have to mind their day-to-day survival, but is joe-dwarf with a focus of "creating a set of bone chainmail" going to get there by hanging out with his pals in the bar or by using his free time productively.

Maybe that's the key:
Is it productive?  If yes, the dwarf is happy.  If no, the dwarf is stressed in some way.  This may well lead to grumpy, surly dwarves.

As far as lack of dwarven culture, I think that's a product of PC rp.  There have been dwarven groups in the past.  And think about it - if you are serious about your focus - who can you expect to understand you better than people with a similar focus?

[jhunter]

Stubborness and drive can sometimes be enough to succeed, but in many cases, it also takes a touch of imagination and a spark of genius, which dwarves as a race tend to lack.

Drive to get something done is the most important factor to getting -anything- done in my opinion. With the drive...you -will- find a way, no matter how hard it is for you. Just my opinion of it.

[Rhyden]

Could somebody give me a reference to the author of these 'Dark Sun' novel(s)? I'd really like to read them and I've seen the name everywhere. If anybody could do that, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

[Agent_137]

Could somebody give me a reference to the author of these 'Dark Sun' novel(s)? I'd really like to read them and I've seen the name everywhere. If anybody could do that, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

I think there are multiple authors. Go to the fantasy section of your local bookstore.

I haven't read them, myself. Nor do I intend to unless I'm desperate for a book to read. So don't think you need to read them to play this game. But . . . if you've got time to kill, go for it! If you like the world this game is set in, i'm sure you'll enjoy the books.

[Xygax]

They seem to be a lateral-step (neither up nor down) from cheesey romance novels, though no doubt there are a few gems in the steaming pile, if you're willing to sift.

If you want to read a good book with good Zalanthan atmosphere (if not necessarily politics or mechanics) try Dune.  We also have a recommended reading list (which is tied in with our Amazon program, if you'll excuse the shameless plug, just in time for the Holidays) here.

[sjanimal]

Comrade Canadia,

Dude, I asked the first half of the question, and you completed my sentence.

That is exactly the kind of shit that I want to know.  My belief is that no one has written it yet.  I think that a couple of enterprising people could get some shit together and submit it to the MUD.  Let me know what you think.


-sjanimal

[Sanura]

I'll post a few comments on this, though certain points are best left vague because we staff members thrive on secrecy and obfuscation. *ahem*

Dwarven societies very well might have once existed, but as has been already said, they went through a long period of enslavement and persecution. Given that they were neither as populous as the humans, or as mobile and clever as the elves, they were pretty much easy, if stubborn, prey. Without giving too many real-life examples, try to imagine a group which has had its culture forcefully ripped from it. That is not to say dwarves might not have some idea of their heritage, etc...It simply means that so far as organized groups go, dwarven "clans" and the like would be an -extreme- rarity.

That said, it's entirely possible that there might be small "communities" of dwarves in the major city-states. No, they don't go out and whistle while they work, but in a somewhat hostile environment where they are -irrevocably- second-class citizens, it would make sense that some of them might group together just as many immigrant groups did in the United States. I do think most communities would be kept fairly small, though, partly because I suspect the Powers that Be wouldn't be too keen on large groups of highly-focused, repressed fanatics congegrating together.

Yes, you heard me. Fanatics. Dwarven minds are, by most reckonings, pretty alien. It goes well beyond "stubborn". The focus is their reason for living. The concepts of compromise or negotiation in regards to their ultimate goal are, for dwarves, utterly unthinkable. That's not to say they spend every second of every day pursuing the focus, but it IS always on their minds somewhere, and a little bit of it is likely in everything they do.
This is why I envision dwarven societies being somewhat...odd, since a great deal of social interaction (at least as we're familiar with it) revolves around...well, compromise and negotiation.

Reading this discussion, I actually find myself more and more interested by some of the ideas present, so I'd love to see it continue. Perhaps the documentation can be clarified a little.

(note: This is the standard disclaimer. All statements made here are the sole property of Sanura and do not reflect on the Official Staff Opinion in any way, shape, or form. 2% sales tax applicable in California. Forbidden in Nilaz and void where prohibited.)

[Comrade Canadia]

Awesome, we're already going on something here.  I think what the dwarven race is missing is well, that sense of being a survivor against the odds.  Think of peoples who exist (voluntarily or involuntarily) amongst a culture that is not their own, or was not their own originally.  African Americans in the US, or Jewish people, well, everywhere save Israel.  

I see tons of potential for dwarves to become cool here after that post, but what needs to happen are some serious moves towards FORCING certain racial aspects on dwarves which I don't see played.  Their... obsessive single-mindedness would also probably give dwarves a few very, very odd customs which would add a certain spice to the race.  STuff humans just wouldn't understand.

Anyways, other ideas on how to make armag dwarves cool, and not like a Gimli clone who's missing his beard?  I'll have more on this when I'm not so damn tired

-Dave

[Fnord]

Get your Dark Sun on.

Then go peep all the pics I posted from BROM over in the Visualizing Zalanthas thread. He did the covers to many of these novels.

Edit: Bah Amazon sucks bawls. Can't link to an index... one sec. There we go, fixed. Thought they could fuck with me?! Enjoy.

[sjanimal]

Sanura,

Thank you so much.  You've given me -lots- of insight on how I might better play a dwarf.  That's exactly the sort of shit that I was hoping for.

Just for fun, I made up a few dwarven customs that some dwarven tribes might follow:


Ritual of the Decision - This is a party that a dwarf throws after he has decided on a new focus.  In the ancient times, it is rumored that only dwarves attended these.  In modern times, a dwarf will invite all of his close friends, dwarven, human or otherwise. Generally, a dwarf's employer will be expected to attend this, even if the dwarf is a slave.   The dwarf will prepare a simple meal for his friends, and share with them the best wine that he can afford, sometimes a bottle that has been laid when he chose his last focus.  Laying a bottle of wine can be part of the ritual.  The dwarf might usually not speak of what his decision is at this time.  In either case, his friends should be happy for him at this momentous event in his life.

Feast of the 83rd Ascending - Legend has it that thousands of years ago, a dwarven army took to arms against a more powerful foe on the 83rd Ascending.  At the end of the day, the dwarven army held the field.  Regardless of wether this story is true or not, Dwarves often gather together on the eve of the 83rd and have a little too much wine.  Other cultural significance of the date has been lost to the ages.

Head shearing - If someone pretends to be too chumy with a dwarf, a dwarf may pantomine the motion of shaving their head towards the offending party.  In this way, a dwarf signifies that he rejects body hair in the same way that the offesnive person has rejected having a good focus in life, or has rejected good manners.    A dwarf might offer this gesture in particular to someone who as asked them their focus.


Let me know what you guys think!!      

[wizturbo]

Sanura,

Thank you so much.  You've given me -lots- of insight on how I might better play a dwarf.  That's exactly the sort of shit that I was hoping for.

Just for fun, I made up a few dwarven customs that some dwarven tribes might follow:


Ritual of the Decision - This is a party that a dwarf throws after he has decided on a new focus.  In the ancient times, it is rumored that only dwarves attended these.  In modern times, a dwarf will invite all of his close friends, dwarven, human or otherwise. Generally, a dwarf's employer will be expected to attend this, even if the dwarf is a slave.   The dwarf will prepare a simple meal for his friends, and share with them the best wine that he can afford, sometimes a bottle that has been laid when he chose his last focus.  Laying a bottle of wine can be part of the ritual.  The dwarf might usually not speak of what his decision is at this time.  In either case, his friends should be happy for him at this momentous event in his life.

Feast of the 83rd Ascending - Legend has it that thousands of years ago, a dwarven army took to arms against a more powerful foe on the 83rd Ascending.  At the end of the day, the dwarven army held the field.  Regardless of wether this story is true or not, Dwarves often gather together on the eve of the 83rd and have a little too much wine.  Other cultural significance of the date has been lost to the ages.

Head shearing - If someone pretends to be too chumy with a dwarf, a dwarf may pantomine the motion of shaving their head towards the offending party.  In this way, a dwarf signifies that he rejects body hair in the same way that the offesnive person has rejected having a good focus in life, or has rejected good manners.    A dwarf might offer this gesture in particular to someone who as asked them their focus.


Let me know what you guys think!!      

No offense intended man....but those don't seem very dwarven to me.

Parties seem particularly pointless to me, when considering dwarven psychology, unless the party happens to further their focus.  Why would they waste valuable time and money (wine is incredibly expensive) towards something that isn't their focus.  Also I think the dwarven focus isn't something they're really proud and celebratory of, its just a fact of life for them.  Existance without a focus would be unthinkable, so its no great accomplishment to have one.  Now...a big party for a dwarf COMPLETING their great goal might be possible...if only to stave off the enormous depression that is likely to follow upon completing their focus.  It'd be bittersweet for a dwarf to complete their lifelong goal, because now they no longer have a purpose in life, and have to find something else.

As for the historical celebration of some dwarven armies victory....sorry, i don't think any rumors would exist for thousands of years.  There is no written word, and oral tradition would decay considerably over that period of time.  Plus...your fascination with dwarves drinking wine seems a bit odd...wine is for nobles and rich merchants.  Perhaps you could design a "Dwarf" drink and submit it to the imms, perhaps make a dwarf character with the goal of making the perfect drink and then having that drink eventually brought into the game.
\
The shearing of the head gesture towards a non-dwarven party seems interesting, but I'd like to see a bit more development in its reasoning.

Thats just my feeling about it.

[jhunter]

Dwarves aren't fearless by nature.
They are fearless when it comes to things that are related to their focus - and then again, doing something that will likely kill you before your complete your focus is very bad - so rather than just doing something stupid (because of some lack of fear) they would think it out:

How does this benefit me reaching my focus?
Is the benefit worth enough for me to fail or is there another path?

A dwarf always thinks about their focus. That is what makes them fearless - not because they necessarily has a will of steel (although many do), and not because of some genetic immunity to fear - but simply because they do not stop thinking about their focus long enough to be afraid. If a horde of raiders surround an unarmed dwarf, the dwarf will still be thinking about how they can free the slaves (or whatever the focus is), and so this supersedes any sort of anxiety, fear, panic, or other emotions relating to anything other than the focus.

[Angela Christine]

Plus...your fascination with dwarves drinking wine seems a bit odd...wine is for nobles and rich merchants.  

That is true in the south, but not in the north.  (This might be another instance of North American values creeping in).  In Tuluk there are places where wine is about the same price as ale, and is  consumed by the general public.  I miss the tavern in the vineyard, it was like an outlet mall for bottles of wine at discount prices, but even without public access to the vineyard I think wine is still a common drink in Tuluk.  I've seen a lot of fruit growing around Tuluk, but no grain.  Then again there is grass, so maybe there is grain, it just can't be gathered by PCs.  Um, anyway.


AC

[sjanimal]

Wizturbo,

Those aren't the best ideas anyone could come up with.  Those aren't even the best ideas that I could come up with.  They are, however, the best ideas I could come up with in -five- minutes.    

Just as some of us have weighed in on the subject by saying "Dwarves that are played like Tolkein Fantasy dwarves contribute little to the game" or "Dwarves who are always played as dour and gruff contribute little to the game,"  To this I would like to add that "Dwarves who are played as single minded robots contribute little to the game.

I'm not arguing with you.  I think it was right to shoot down my ideas.  My ideas weren't particularly good, but I'd be intetersted to see you come up with some better ones.  Actually, I challenge you to do just this.

Keep a few things in mind...

-Dwarves will need a culture to seem like fully integrated parts of a game world.  Culture often makes little sense.  For example, what gave Aztec cultures the idea that wearing human skin would give them powers, or that killing people would please their gods?  Doesn't make much sense, huh?  But they did it, all the same.  I think Dwarven culture should make as much sense as any
-Although if you or I were to meet a dwarf in real life, to us that person might seem really focused.  But if you put a bunch of dwarves together, amongst themselves one would seem like the lazy dwarf.  One would seem like the silly dwarf.  In other words, how would dwarves view a dwarf who works ONLY six hours of the 9 hour game day?  Humans work five hours, and might think the dwarf is hard working, but other dwarves that work 7 hours would think him very lazy.  It's like my Korean friends who think I'm laid back and friendly.  Compared to them, I am.  They are more formal and serious than I am.  But compared to a lot of people in my culture, I am considered formal and serious.  
- Maybe a lot of dwarven cultural traits would be descended from adapted slave traditions?  

anyways, I like your posts and am interested to see what you come up with.

yours,
-sjanimal

PS, feel free to bounce any ideas off me.

[sjanimal]

sidenote:  I had dwarves drinking wine to get away from the stereotype that dwarves drink whiskey.  Lots of people play dwarves like they're really short Scotsmen, minus the kilts.

sidenote:  I had dwarves drinking wine to get away from the stereotype that dwarves drink whiskey.  Lots of people play dwarves like they're really short Scotsmen, minus the kilts.

If a dwarf wants to get drunk, its probably going to try and get there the best way possible. Dwarves I had would go broke or get full before getting drunk off wine. Flame,whisky. or other potent things would probably make more sense for their metabolism. Drinking wine, If the other dwarves weren't too busy with their focus they'd give you a swirly in the Byn latrines.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

sidenote:  I had dwarves drinking wine to get away from the stereotype that dwarves drink whiskey.  Lots of people play dwarves like they're really short Scotsmen, minus the kilts.

Ha! Scotsmen pirates.   Aye, laddie!  That is it, man, I am going to make a dwarf with a vintner focus.  Make him some kind of rabid afficianado of fine wines.  

I love that. . and it helps lead into my question.

For those of us daydreaming of a new PC because of this thread, but need some good help with picking an appropriate focus, can we get some ideas?   Even if you just want to (staff?) list some bad or rejected focuses.  I'm beginning to think the dwarven mentality, especially the focus thing, might fit my playing style even better than humans.

[jhunter]

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/focussuggestions.html


There you go, there's over a hundred suggestions there.

In fact, this entire section is pretty sweet and helpful.


http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/dwarf.html

[Yokunama]

Whatever dwarf you play...try to act as a bit pissed off, even for the simple reason that most custom things in Zalanthas are made for the taller species. Try to be rude (to a certain extent) and be...dwarvish!

I do not think that is actually correct. From what I've read about the Dwarves, they are extreamly stubborn (Sticking to the same goal until the one they have is accomplished).

From the looks of it, they would get angry whenever someone or something gets in the way of the goal they have set. Stubborn does not mean they are angry... just means that they are not willing to give up even if it kills them.

As for the insults from the other races, I've read that they are somewhat strong, and you shouldn't be worried about them calling you names unless you are a short-tempered dwarf. Knowing that you can easily bash the others to the ground with half of your might, due to your lack of hight is something some dwarves would be proud of XD.

[Xygax]

Rhyden:  It definitely seems like you're having trouble letting go of the Tolkien-dwarf.

Zalanthan dwarfs are not inherently grumpy or rude, and they don't necessarily have a Napoleon complex.

As someone else on this thread, stubborn is different that antisocial.

[Savak]

The "trouble" really isn't that people are playing the wrong kind of dwarf, it's that they don't seem to try to play a "dwarf" at all.  We've had a couple of all too brief phases where that wasn't quite the case, usually when one powerful-enough dwarf was tromping around and playing one particular style or other so people tried copying it for a while.

Still, I've seen precious few at all (and fewer still leading-types -- none actually come to mind, though a well-played "dwarf" also being appropriately treated by society would have a difficult time attaining and maintaining a powerful -public- leadership position) have managed to successfully stick to the fairly simple docs which DO exist.  Stubborn, with a driving focus, and difficult interaction with other races (either because they don't get along with other races, or other races don't get along with them).  Maybe that's because people forget the fact that most dwarves are still enslaved, and nearly all of them at one time -were- slaves...so the character comes out as a stout, ugly human with attitude, rather than a believable "dwarf."

I don't think the way to go is to try to describe a dwarven tribal culture, because there just aren't any dwarven tribes (of particular knowledge in the Known World) -- thus most PC's won't have a tribal background -- and if there were, they would by nature be UNIQUE tribes, and thus be of no real help in defining dwarves IN GENERAL.

Instead, continue thinking about how a dwarf, with those simple inherent characteristics, might be further molded by the racist, misunderstanding, and whimsical (unfocused) society they live in.  And how society should be treating them in turn.  There ARE a lot of ways to go with playing an individual dwarf, but the basic tenets should still be followed.

-Savak

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Here's a question, then:  

Say I recycle for my focus something along the lines of "Preside as Patriarch over a dwarven trading Clan."   (Yeah, I know it was done before - and it looked fun even then.)  Am I automatically missing the point of playing a slave-race mentality by even thinking of rising to some sort of leadership role?   I know you didn't say that dwarves can't be leaders, but if one -did- end up in an influential role would that be seen as playing a short, bald human with muscles?

I've thought about playing muls before, and the main thing that has stopped me was I have a hard enough time getting into the subservient/servant mindset just because I'm so obnoxiously cocky in real life.  The slave mentality seems to be just hard to pull off.

[Seeker]

I have some difficulty reconciling the concept on an enslaved race who's dominant pschological feature is an all-consuming focus that cannot be imposed or altered from outside.

Any dwarves have focuses.  All dwarves cannot be detered from their overpowering internal drive to acheive their focus.  Dwaves fear neither death or pain in the acheiving of their focus.  

It seems to me that about 90% of all dwarves are going to be absolutely useless under slavery.  If a dwarf's focus is to see the silt sea, no amount of punishment is going to make him work productivily in your salt mine for the rest of his days.

I have a difficult time explaining this away without somehow damaging the built-in, well-defined concept of the dwarven "indominatable will."  I suspect, like everything else on Zalanthas, we are not being told the entire story here.


Seeker

[Xamminy]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough.  It has been done.  That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

[Seeker]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough. It has been done. That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

That is a simple, excellent answer.


Seeker