How to play Dwarves?

[sjanimal]

Elves.  I've played a few elves in my time.  I'd like to think I'm good at them.  You play kinda like a human, but more paranoid, tribal and larcenous.  It's more complicated than that, but I'd like to think I can slip into the elven mindset when called to.

Halfevles.  I can do halfelves.  Loners by nurture...seeking to find someplace where they fit in -- the kind of people that get along better with animals than people.  I think I can play a passable halfelf.

Humans.  Well hopefully I can play a human okay.  I am human, right? (we hope)

But dwarves...I just don't get dwarves.  I want to.  I've tried to figure them out.  When I look to other people, they seem to play their dwarves as really gruff and dour.  I'm not convinced this is fantastic role playing.  To me it seems like they're just trying to be Gimli from the Lord of the Rings.  No, I'm not calling it bad role playing.  Play yer character like you want to.

But it still leaves me with the question -- how do you play a dwarf?  I'm curious if there are any experienced players that can share their thoughts about dwarves with me.  

Also, how do you write an objective?  Like what is a good versus a bad objective?  Don't quote the Docs to me.  I've read the Docs.  I want to know, how do you think of a good objective for a dwarf?

Thanks for your help in advance!

[Cuusardo]

Have you talked to any of the Helpers?  Chances are they can give you some great advice.

[Agent_137]

Damn, I just realized I haven't made a dwarf PC yet. I'll have to get on that. Maybe not my next PC, but the one after.

I have this odd love-hate relationship with my current char. He's fun, but there's a bunch of other concepts I want to play . . .I think he came at the wrong time for me. Poor guy. Maybe I'll store him.

Oh, right, dwarves, how to play a dwarf. Hm....Focus . . .

I don't think dwarves have to be dour and anal. I've meet cheery dwarves and I thought they were done especially well. I think, personality and focus will intermingle and feed off each other. But I think the personality is really the base. It not only affects what focus is chosen, but also how the dwarf goes about attaining that focus. So write up your personality, then pick a focus that personality would pick.

Or, chose a focus you want, and think about what kind of personalities would have that focus. Then pick one of those and flesh it out more.

[jhunter]

It's all about focus. -Everything- needs to be considered in how it affects your focus. Personality is always up to the player of course.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

You're gonna laugh at me, but I think the reason dwarf PCs seem so gruff and dour has more to do with the general lack of female dwarf PCs than it does with Gimli.   At least that's my theory based on the grand experience of having known and interacted with 2 whole dwarf PCs in three or four years on Arm.

The happy, socially well-adjusted dwarf never talked about sex, finding wimminfolk, settling down, or tried to hit on non-dwarven women.

The grumpy, sour dwarf was all the time trying to get someone, anyone to sex him up.  Rarely ever worked for him.  He stayed pissed off, it seems.

I've been toying with the idea of having my next PC be dwarven, so I'm glad you started this thread.  Sorry I don't have anything to add to it, but I'll be watching it eagerly.

[Dan]

I try not to just pull a focus out of a hat, if you will.

What is the drawfs guild, subguild, and backgroud going to be? Try to write down the characters life changing events and possibly a timeline of set and already accomplished goals, then you can make a focus to jump into the game with. Works for me. Also, I try to more or less ignore people unless there is some way they will help me with my focus.

Also, it is possible to stray from your focus for a time, only to the point where straying from your focus doesn't damage its progression towards completion. Like getting drunk every now and then, so long as it doesn't hurt the focus, dwarves aren't little machines.

[Rhyden]

Alright, sjanimal, I've played a fair number of dwarves in my experience, I think I'm pretty good at it...

During my time playing a dwarf (this could be utterly wrong), I usualy try to make them really stubborn and rude, of course this can alter with the type of dwarf you're playing...it makes sense...these are wee guys who look slightly 'off' compared to most of the other humanoids in civilization (height + hairless) and probably get teased and mocked by the taller people all the time. For whatever reason, they have a right to be pissed off for some reason.

When I have dwarves, they tend to like ale, a lot. They usually keep their obsidian stored up, erm, when I try to be rude...it just means if somebody tells me 'hello', I may reply with a 'feck off, long-shanks', if they're in a bad mood. It could be an: 'If yer not buyin' me an ale, ye can feck off' if they're in a good mood (once again, this varies with your dwarf).

(I mainly try to base my dwarves off LOTR and Trollslayer, for those who've read these books)

Whatever dwarf you play...try to act as a bit pissed off, even for the simple reason that most custom things in Zalanthas are made for the taller species. Try to be rude (to a certain extent) and be...dwarvish!

:!: Whatever your dwarf, try to play them with your own way!

-Rhyden

[Dan]

That was a joke, right?

[Fnord]

Everything you think, say, or do is "checked" by your focus. To keep it simple,  basically everything a dwarf experiences should be considered a help, hindrance, or irrelevant towards their focus. Elaborate as you wish beyond that, but those are the basics as I see them.

With that in mind my next dwarf's focus will be to become the first dwarven Borsail noble. He mul you long time. :twisted:

Edit... oh yeah. Age. Dwarves live a long ass tme. They are likely to pursue their focus more slowly and surely than say an ambitious human.

[Agent_137]

I couldn't disagree with Rhyden more. Let's not cookie-cutter the typical fantasy bitter dwarf with a beard who swings an axe or a hammer and drinks a lot of ale. Thanks.

Do what Dan said. Put some thought into a real personality. Dwarves can be happy and kind. Dwarves can be social. Dwarves can be silent Dwarves can be lots of things. Their personalities vary as much as any other race, except they've got the whole focus thing going for them.

[SRB]

The focus itself is what has kept me from trying out a dwarf thus far in my time here.

Perhaps soon I will try one, to get the feel for it. They seem like a blast.  

[Xygax]

Yeah, I think it's a good idea to let go of Tolkien concepts when playing Arm.  Our dwarves are not necessarily gruff and unfriendly alcoholics.

In fact, a dwarf is as likely to be uncharacteristically NICE as he is to be gruff, if he think you're capable of helping him achieve his goals.  The Tolkien style dwarf may lead you to a very one-dimensional life which may not be very interesting, also.

- X

[Canadian Beaver]

I've only had one dwarf, but he was a blast. Dwarves are great because they always have their focus to work on. Other types of chars can tend to get boring after awhile and stale. Anyways, as others have said before, I think the only thing to really consider when playing a dwarf is their focus. Having friends and allies can greatly help a focus, or possibly hinder it. Every dwarf is different due to their varying focus.

[Bogre]

If dwarves are being gruff towards you, I think it's cause you are of no matter to them cause you don't affect their achievement of their focus.

[Rhyden]

Whatever, I like my dwarves gruff and tough...no pansy crap...but I suppose I still need to read that book that Arm's based on...what was it again? Oh well.

I agree with the 'focus' bit though, focus really gives your dwarven character something to thrive for, which is what we do with all our characters, am I right? But with dwarves, its a more powerful goal than with other races.

[Agent_137]

Whatever, I like my dwarves gruff and tough...no pansy crap...but I suppose I still need to read that book that Arm's based on...what was it again? Oh well.

I agree with the 'focus' bit though, focus really gives your dwarven character something to thrive for, which is what we do with all our characters, am I right? But with dwarves, its a more powerful goal than with other races.

Dark sun, and don't even sweat that. Free yourselves from outside concepts, study the docs, and go from there. A gruff dwarf now and then is good, but if all your dwarves are gruff . . . wouldn't that get old?

[Cold_Dark_Aurora]

Out of curiosity, is it okay to create a basic focus that (the player knows) would never be attained?

For example, say I want to make a dwarf character whose out for revenge against another person for doing him/her some grand injustice in the past, all of which is explained in the char's history.  Thing is, the person the dwarf is hunting does not technically exist in the game (or atleast not played by a PC)?

That's just one example.

Or should I aim for smaller goals, and build up to them?  Like.. a dwarf who wants to bring down that one big kill in a hunt, or something.

[Agent_137]

In my opinion, that's totally up to you and your dwarf's personality. Granted, any large focus will need to be broken down into steps, so if you take a large focus you'll likely need lots of smaller foci just to mange it. But there's no limit to the size or scope, big or small.

Keep in mind two things though:
New focuses -are- related to the previous in in some way shape or fashion. Your focus can't be "Find the best rug, ever." And then move on to "Breeding bahamets" after you find that rug. Unless you feel that breeding bahamets would allow you to have the perfect guard dog for your ultimate apartment. Having the ultimate apartment would be your focus, in this case.

Also keep in mind that having a virtual enemy can be fun, but you also can ask another player to hop into that role later on to make it more fun.

The only trouble with a virtual enemy would be roleplaying it well.  I wouldn't do it personally, too difficult to make my reactions and his reactions realistic. I keep VNPC interactions on a short term basis only. But if you got some great ideas for it, go for it.

[Tlaloc]

Out of curiosity, is it okay to create a basic focus that (the player knows) would never be attained?

For example, say I want to make a dwarf character whose out for revenge against another person for doing him/her some grand injustice in the past, all of which is explained in the char's history. Thing is, the person the dwarf is hunting does not technically exist in the game (or atleast not played by a PC)?

This is completely fine, I think. However, if such a Focus is created, I suggest you email the Mud with the specifics. That way, if anyone feels like it, it CAN become a reality, and something easily fulfillable.

Incidentally, most Foci should be difficult, if not almost impossible, to achieve. Such is the nature of the Focus.

[Canadian Beaver]

Incidentally, most Foci should be difficult, if not almost impossible, to achieve. Such is the nature of the Focus.

Hmm, somewhat agreed. My one dwarf's focus was attainable, although, requiring a lot of work and a lot of connections. I've often though of setting a fairly easy focus at first though as well, so when you attain it, you can look at where your char is in his life and set a more realistic focus for them to work towards. Such as a family, career change, or who knows what.

Sometimes a simple focus is good to start out with. Gives you something to build up your char before moving on to something more heavy.

[Canadian Beaver]

Incidentally, most Foci should be difficult, if not almost impossible, to achieve. Such is the nature of the Focus.

Hmm, somewhat agreed. My one dwarf's focus was attainable, although, requiring a lot of work and a lot of connections. I've often though of setting a fairly easy focus at first though as well, so when you attain it, you can look at where your char is in his life and set a more realistic focus for them to work towards. Such as a family, career change, or who knows what.

Sometimes a simple focus is good to start out with. Gives you something to build up your char before moving on to something more heavy.

[Cowboy]

The other character trait that I found useful with the dwarf character is that they are "fearless."   They do what others shrink from, they always take point,  they are the first one into the that nasty, dark place.  Agreed, the fearlessness is a product of focus but it should be a a strong part of each dwarf.  Many dwaves are killed becasue of it...but if you think of the dwarf characters you liked or remember,  fearless was probably a good part of who and what they were.

[Comrade Canadia]

Well, in order to figure out the dwarven personality, -I'd- like to figure out a bit more.  Could somebody answer these questions for me?

1.  Why does your average dwarf have trouble with sirihish, even though there is no actual dwarven society to speak of?  

2.  Why IS there no dwarven culture?  How can an entire race exist without any noticeable society of its own?  

There aren't dwarven sections to towns, dwarven villages, dwarven tribes, or anything like that.  They, as far as I can tell, exist entirely in human society... and yet still can't speak sirihish properly.  Are they idiotic?  Or is there a secret dwarven culture that they all come from I haven't been told about?  And I mean... one that ALL dwarves come from.

3.  How far do we go from Tolkein's dwarves?  

I mean, the only that differentiates Zalanthanian dwarves from Middle Earth dwarves is the lack of beard, lack of distinct society, and lack of mining.  Aside from that, uh, they're pretty much exactly the same.  Imms have always said they're -not- Tolkein dwarves, but I think we need something more drastic to differentiate them.  A focus, even if not something Tolkein's dwarves have is... in character for them, if you follow me.  

4.  Do they even belong in Zalanthas?  I actually would argue no.  

Dwarves in Dark Sun to me always felt like last minute additions.  Dark Sun was all about taking fantasy cliches and twisting them... the dwarves barely even got a twist!  Elves and halflings sure as hell some serious changes, and orcs were completely changed into gith!  Muls and half-giants were welcome additions.  Dwarves?  Knocked off the beard and gave 'em a focus.  They receive no society, no noticeable personality, and... well, they're just tacked on.  

5.  If I'm not the only one who views these as problems, how do we solve them?

I say that we need to either remove the race from the game entirely, or actually give them a freaking society.  They can live entirely in human cities, but perhaps give them sections of town - have trades which dwarves dominate - and give them all sirihish at max for the love of god.  I don't even know why mirukkim exists.  How the hell does a language remain alive when its only speakers don't even have a real society to preserve it?  

ANYWAYS, there's my rant.  I've never liked armag dwarves because they have always felt like someone just wanted a dwarf in their fantasy world, but didn't bother to explain why they were there.

-Dave

[jhunter]

There might just be dwarven societies in the game somewhere, that's all I'm going to say on that.

I do think that there should be more of a presense of dwarves having their own culture and more places that are run/owned by dwarves.

It just seems odd that these stubbornly driven beings...don't really have shit in the scheme of things.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There might just be dwarven societies in the game somewhere, that's all I'm going to say on that.

I do think that there should be more of a presense of dwarves having their own culture and more places that are run/owned by dwarves.

It just seems odd that these stubbornly driven beings...don't really have shit in the scheme of things.

Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, since I'm not taking the time to look it up thoroughly), dwarves went through a long period where most of the race was enslaved.  Stubborness and drive can sometimes be enough to succeed, but in many cases, it also takes a touch of imagination and a spark of genius, which dwarves as a race tend to lack.

[moab]

Dwarves aren't fearless by nature.
They are fearless when it comes to things that are related to their focus - and then again, doing something that will likely kill you before your complete your focus is very bad - so rather than just doing something stupid (because of some lack of fear) they would think it out:

How does this benefit me reaching my focus?
Is the benefit worth enough for me to fail or is there another path?

I think dwarves should come off as stuborn and grumpy very often.  Why?  Because dwarves are, by their nature - working toward their focus - and if you are sidetracking them, then they are they are going to be short-tempered and ugly.  You're getting in the way.  Assist or get on with yourself.

Too often, I think, dwarves are played far more social than they likely would be.  Sure, they have to mind their day-to-day survival, but is joe-dwarf with a focus of "creating a set of bone chainmail" going to get there by hanging out with his pals in the bar or by using his free time productively.

Maybe that's the key:
Is it productive?  If yes, the dwarf is happy.  If no, the dwarf is stressed in some way.  This may well lead to grumpy, surly dwarves.

As far as lack of dwarven culture, I think that's a product of PC rp.  There have been dwarven groups in the past.  And think about it - if you are serious about your focus - who can you expect to understand you better than people with a similar focus?

[jhunter]

Stubborness and drive can sometimes be enough to succeed, but in many cases, it also takes a touch of imagination and a spark of genius, which dwarves as a race tend to lack.

Drive to get something done is the most important factor to getting -anything- done in my opinion. With the drive...you -will- find a way, no matter how hard it is for you. Just my opinion of it.

[Rhyden]

Could somebody give me a reference to the author of these 'Dark Sun' novel(s)? I'd really like to read them and I've seen the name everywhere. If anybody could do that, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

[Agent_137]

Could somebody give me a reference to the author of these 'Dark Sun' novel(s)? I'd really like to read them and I've seen the name everywhere. If anybody could do that, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

I think there are multiple authors. Go to the fantasy section of your local bookstore.

I haven't read them, myself. Nor do I intend to unless I'm desperate for a book to read. So don't think you need to read them to play this game. But . . . if you've got time to kill, go for it! If you like the world this game is set in, i'm sure you'll enjoy the books.

[Xygax]

They seem to be a lateral-step (neither up nor down) from cheesey romance novels, though no doubt there are a few gems in the steaming pile, if you're willing to sift.

If you want to read a good book with good Zalanthan atmosphere (if not necessarily politics or mechanics) try Dune.  We also have a recommended reading list (which is tied in with our Amazon program, if you'll excuse the shameless plug, just in time for the Holidays) here.

[sjanimal]

Comrade Canadia,

Dude, I asked the first half of the question, and you completed my sentence.

That is exactly the kind of shit that I want to know.  My belief is that no one has written it yet.  I think that a couple of enterprising people could get some shit together and submit it to the MUD.  Let me know what you think.


-sjanimal

[Sanura]

I'll post a few comments on this, though certain points are best left vague because we staff members thrive on secrecy and obfuscation. *ahem*

Dwarven societies very well might have once existed, but as has been already said, they went through a long period of enslavement and persecution. Given that they were neither as populous as the humans, or as mobile and clever as the elves, they were pretty much easy, if stubborn, prey. Without giving too many real-life examples, try to imagine a group which has had its culture forcefully ripped from it. That is not to say dwarves might not have some idea of their heritage, etc...It simply means that so far as organized groups go, dwarven "clans" and the like would be an -extreme- rarity.

That said, it's entirely possible that there might be small "communities" of dwarves in the major city-states. No, they don't go out and whistle while they work, but in a somewhat hostile environment where they are -irrevocably- second-class citizens, it would make sense that some of them might group together just as many immigrant groups did in the United States. I do think most communities would be kept fairly small, though, partly because I suspect the Powers that Be wouldn't be too keen on large groups of highly-focused, repressed fanatics congegrating together.

Yes, you heard me. Fanatics. Dwarven minds are, by most reckonings, pretty alien. It goes well beyond "stubborn". The focus is their reason for living. The concepts of compromise or negotiation in regards to their ultimate goal are, for dwarves, utterly unthinkable. That's not to say they spend every second of every day pursuing the focus, but it IS always on their minds somewhere, and a little bit of it is likely in everything they do.
This is why I envision dwarven societies being somewhat...odd, since a great deal of social interaction (at least as we're familiar with it) revolves around...well, compromise and negotiation.

Reading this discussion, I actually find myself more and more interested by some of the ideas present, so I'd love to see it continue. Perhaps the documentation can be clarified a little.

(note: This is the standard disclaimer. All statements made here are the sole property of Sanura and do not reflect on the Official Staff Opinion in any way, shape, or form. 2% sales tax applicable in California. Forbidden in Nilaz and void where prohibited.)

[Comrade Canadia]

Awesome, we're already going on something here.  I think what the dwarven race is missing is well, that sense of being a survivor against the odds.  Think of peoples who exist (voluntarily or involuntarily) amongst a culture that is not their own, or was not their own originally.  African Americans in the US, or Jewish people, well, everywhere save Israel.  

I see tons of potential for dwarves to become cool here after that post, but what needs to happen are some serious moves towards FORCING certain racial aspects on dwarves which I don't see played.  Their... obsessive single-mindedness would also probably give dwarves a few very, very odd customs which would add a certain spice to the race.  STuff humans just wouldn't understand.

Anyways, other ideas on how to make armag dwarves cool, and not like a Gimli clone who's missing his beard?  I'll have more on this when I'm not so damn tired

-Dave

[Fnord]

Get your Dark Sun on.

Then go peep all the pics I posted from BROM over in the Visualizing Zalanthas thread. He did the covers to many of these novels.

Edit: Bah Amazon sucks bawls. Can't link to an index... one sec. There we go, fixed. Thought they could fuck with me?! Enjoy.

[sjanimal]

Sanura,

Thank you so much.  You've given me -lots- of insight on how I might better play a dwarf.  That's exactly the sort of shit that I was hoping for.

Just for fun, I made up a few dwarven customs that some dwarven tribes might follow:


Ritual of the Decision - This is a party that a dwarf throws after he has decided on a new focus.  In the ancient times, it is rumored that only dwarves attended these.  In modern times, a dwarf will invite all of his close friends, dwarven, human or otherwise. Generally, a dwarf's employer will be expected to attend this, even if the dwarf is a slave.   The dwarf will prepare a simple meal for his friends, and share with them the best wine that he can afford, sometimes a bottle that has been laid when he chose his last focus.  Laying a bottle of wine can be part of the ritual.  The dwarf might usually not speak of what his decision is at this time.  In either case, his friends should be happy for him at this momentous event in his life.

Feast of the 83rd Ascending - Legend has it that thousands of years ago, a dwarven army took to arms against a more powerful foe on the 83rd Ascending.  At the end of the day, the dwarven army held the field.  Regardless of wether this story is true or not, Dwarves often gather together on the eve of the 83rd and have a little too much wine.  Other cultural significance of the date has been lost to the ages.

Head shearing - If someone pretends to be too chumy with a dwarf, a dwarf may pantomine the motion of shaving their head towards the offending party.  In this way, a dwarf signifies that he rejects body hair in the same way that the offesnive person has rejected having a good focus in life, or has rejected good manners.    A dwarf might offer this gesture in particular to someone who as asked them their focus.


Let me know what you guys think!!      

[wizturbo]

Sanura,

Thank you so much.  You've given me -lots- of insight on how I might better play a dwarf.  That's exactly the sort of shit that I was hoping for.

Just for fun, I made up a few dwarven customs that some dwarven tribes might follow:


Ritual of the Decision - This is a party that a dwarf throws after he has decided on a new focus.  In the ancient times, it is rumored that only dwarves attended these.  In modern times, a dwarf will invite all of his close friends, dwarven, human or otherwise. Generally, a dwarf's employer will be expected to attend this, even if the dwarf is a slave.   The dwarf will prepare a simple meal for his friends, and share with them the best wine that he can afford, sometimes a bottle that has been laid when he chose his last focus.  Laying a bottle of wine can be part of the ritual.  The dwarf might usually not speak of what his decision is at this time.  In either case, his friends should be happy for him at this momentous event in his life.

Feast of the 83rd Ascending - Legend has it that thousands of years ago, a dwarven army took to arms against a more powerful foe on the 83rd Ascending.  At the end of the day, the dwarven army held the field.  Regardless of wether this story is true or not, Dwarves often gather together on the eve of the 83rd and have a little too much wine.  Other cultural significance of the date has been lost to the ages.

Head shearing - If someone pretends to be too chumy with a dwarf, a dwarf may pantomine the motion of shaving their head towards the offending party.  In this way, a dwarf signifies that he rejects body hair in the same way that the offesnive person has rejected having a good focus in life, or has rejected good manners.    A dwarf might offer this gesture in particular to someone who as asked them their focus.


Let me know what you guys think!!      

No offense intended man....but those don't seem very dwarven to me.

Parties seem particularly pointless to me, when considering dwarven psychology, unless the party happens to further their focus.  Why would they waste valuable time and money (wine is incredibly expensive) towards something that isn't their focus.  Also I think the dwarven focus isn't something they're really proud and celebratory of, its just a fact of life for them.  Existance without a focus would be unthinkable, so its no great accomplishment to have one.  Now...a big party for a dwarf COMPLETING their great goal might be possible...if only to stave off the enormous depression that is likely to follow upon completing their focus.  It'd be bittersweet for a dwarf to complete their lifelong goal, because now they no longer have a purpose in life, and have to find something else.

As for the historical celebration of some dwarven armies victory....sorry, i don't think any rumors would exist for thousands of years.  There is no written word, and oral tradition would decay considerably over that period of time.  Plus...your fascination with dwarves drinking wine seems a bit odd...wine is for nobles and rich merchants.  Perhaps you could design a "Dwarf" drink and submit it to the imms, perhaps make a dwarf character with the goal of making the perfect drink and then having that drink eventually brought into the game.
\
The shearing of the head gesture towards a non-dwarven party seems interesting, but I'd like to see a bit more development in its reasoning.

Thats just my feeling about it.

[jhunter]

Dwarves aren't fearless by nature.
They are fearless when it comes to things that are related to their focus - and then again, doing something that will likely kill you before your complete your focus is very bad - so rather than just doing something stupid (because of some lack of fear) they would think it out:

How does this benefit me reaching my focus?
Is the benefit worth enough for me to fail or is there another path?

A dwarf always thinks about their focus. That is what makes them fearless - not because they necessarily has a will of steel (although many do), and not because of some genetic immunity to fear - but simply because they do not stop thinking about their focus long enough to be afraid. If a horde of raiders surround an unarmed dwarf, the dwarf will still be thinking about how they can free the slaves (or whatever the focus is), and so this supersedes any sort of anxiety, fear, panic, or other emotions relating to anything other than the focus.

[Angela Christine]

Plus...your fascination with dwarves drinking wine seems a bit odd...wine is for nobles and rich merchants.  

That is true in the south, but not in the north.  (This might be another instance of North American values creeping in).  In Tuluk there are places where wine is about the same price as ale, and is  consumed by the general public.  I miss the tavern in the vineyard, it was like an outlet mall for bottles of wine at discount prices, but even without public access to the vineyard I think wine is still a common drink in Tuluk.  I've seen a lot of fruit growing around Tuluk, but no grain.  Then again there is grass, so maybe there is grain, it just can't be gathered by PCs.  Um, anyway.


AC

[sjanimal]

Wizturbo,

Those aren't the best ideas anyone could come up with.  Those aren't even the best ideas that I could come up with.  They are, however, the best ideas I could come up with in -five- minutes.    

Just as some of us have weighed in on the subject by saying "Dwarves that are played like Tolkein Fantasy dwarves contribute little to the game" or "Dwarves who are always played as dour and gruff contribute little to the game,"  To this I would like to add that "Dwarves who are played as single minded robots contribute little to the game.

I'm not arguing with you.  I think it was right to shoot down my ideas.  My ideas weren't particularly good, but I'd be intetersted to see you come up with some better ones.  Actually, I challenge you to do just this.

Keep a few things in mind...

-Dwarves will need a culture to seem like fully integrated parts of a game world.  Culture often makes little sense.  For example, what gave Aztec cultures the idea that wearing human skin would give them powers, or that killing people would please their gods?  Doesn't make much sense, huh?  But they did it, all the same.  I think Dwarven culture should make as much sense as any
-Although if you or I were to meet a dwarf in real life, to us that person might seem really focused.  But if you put a bunch of dwarves together, amongst themselves one would seem like the lazy dwarf.  One would seem like the silly dwarf.  In other words, how would dwarves view a dwarf who works ONLY six hours of the 9 hour game day?  Humans work five hours, and might think the dwarf is hard working, but other dwarves that work 7 hours would think him very lazy.  It's like my Korean friends who think I'm laid back and friendly.  Compared to them, I am.  They are more formal and serious than I am.  But compared to a lot of people in my culture, I am considered formal and serious.  
- Maybe a lot of dwarven cultural traits would be descended from adapted slave traditions?  

anyways, I like your posts and am interested to see what you come up with.

yours,
-sjanimal

PS, feel free to bounce any ideas off me.

[sjanimal]

sidenote:  I had dwarves drinking wine to get away from the stereotype that dwarves drink whiskey.  Lots of people play dwarves like they're really short Scotsmen, minus the kilts.

sidenote:  I had dwarves drinking wine to get away from the stereotype that dwarves drink whiskey.  Lots of people play dwarves like they're really short Scotsmen, minus the kilts.

If a dwarf wants to get drunk, its probably going to try and get there the best way possible. Dwarves I had would go broke or get full before getting drunk off wine. Flame,whisky. or other potent things would probably make more sense for their metabolism. Drinking wine, If the other dwarves weren't too busy with their focus they'd give you a swirly in the Byn latrines.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

sidenote:  I had dwarves drinking wine to get away from the stereotype that dwarves drink whiskey.  Lots of people play dwarves like they're really short Scotsmen, minus the kilts.

Ha! Scotsmen pirates.   Aye, laddie!  That is it, man, I am going to make a dwarf with a vintner focus.  Make him some kind of rabid afficianado of fine wines.  

I love that. . and it helps lead into my question.

For those of us daydreaming of a new PC because of this thread, but need some good help with picking an appropriate focus, can we get some ideas?   Even if you just want to (staff?) list some bad or rejected focuses.  I'm beginning to think the dwarven mentality, especially the focus thing, might fit my playing style even better than humans.

[jhunter]

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/focussuggestions.html


There you go, there's over a hundred suggestions there.

In fact, this entire section is pretty sweet and helpful.


http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/dwarf.html

[Yokunama]

Whatever dwarf you play...try to act as a bit pissed off, even for the simple reason that most custom things in Zalanthas are made for the taller species. Try to be rude (to a certain extent) and be...dwarvish!

I do not think that is actually correct. From what I've read about the Dwarves, they are extreamly stubborn (Sticking to the same goal until the one they have is accomplished).

From the looks of it, they would get angry whenever someone or something gets in the way of the goal they have set. Stubborn does not mean they are angry... just means that they are not willing to give up even if it kills them.

As for the insults from the other races, I've read that they are somewhat strong, and you shouldn't be worried about them calling you names unless you are a short-tempered dwarf. Knowing that you can easily bash the others to the ground with half of your might, due to your lack of hight is something some dwarves would be proud of XD.

[Xygax]

Rhyden:  It definitely seems like you're having trouble letting go of the Tolkien-dwarf.

Zalanthan dwarfs are not inherently grumpy or rude, and they don't necessarily have a Napoleon complex.

As someone else on this thread, stubborn is different that antisocial.

[Savak]

The "trouble" really isn't that people are playing the wrong kind of dwarf, it's that they don't seem to try to play a "dwarf" at all.  We've had a couple of all too brief phases where that wasn't quite the case, usually when one powerful-enough dwarf was tromping around and playing one particular style or other so people tried copying it for a while.

Still, I've seen precious few at all (and fewer still leading-types -- none actually come to mind, though a well-played "dwarf" also being appropriately treated by society would have a difficult time attaining and maintaining a powerful -public- leadership position) have managed to successfully stick to the fairly simple docs which DO exist.  Stubborn, with a driving focus, and difficult interaction with other races (either because they don't get along with other races, or other races don't get along with them).  Maybe that's because people forget the fact that most dwarves are still enslaved, and nearly all of them at one time -were- slaves...so the character comes out as a stout, ugly human with attitude, rather than a believable "dwarf."

I don't think the way to go is to try to describe a dwarven tribal culture, because there just aren't any dwarven tribes (of particular knowledge in the Known World) -- thus most PC's won't have a tribal background -- and if there were, they would by nature be UNIQUE tribes, and thus be of no real help in defining dwarves IN GENERAL.

Instead, continue thinking about how a dwarf, with those simple inherent characteristics, might be further molded by the racist, misunderstanding, and whimsical (unfocused) society they live in.  And how society should be treating them in turn.  There ARE a lot of ways to go with playing an individual dwarf, but the basic tenets should still be followed.

-Savak

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Here's a question, then:  

Say I recycle for my focus something along the lines of "Preside as Patriarch over a dwarven trading Clan."   (Yeah, I know it was done before - and it looked fun even then.)  Am I automatically missing the point of playing a slave-race mentality by even thinking of rising to some sort of leadership role?   I know you didn't say that dwarves can't be leaders, but if one -did- end up in an influential role would that be seen as playing a short, bald human with muscles?

I've thought about playing muls before, and the main thing that has stopped me was I have a hard enough time getting into the subservient/servant mindset just because I'm so obnoxiously cocky in real life.  The slave mentality seems to be just hard to pull off.

[Seeker]

I have some difficulty reconciling the concept on an enslaved race who's dominant pschological feature is an all-consuming focus that cannot be imposed or altered from outside.

Any dwarves have focuses.  All dwarves cannot be detered from their overpowering internal drive to acheive their focus.  Dwaves fear neither death or pain in the acheiving of their focus.  

It seems to me that about 90% of all dwarves are going to be absolutely useless under slavery.  If a dwarf's focus is to see the silt sea, no amount of punishment is going to make him work productivily in your salt mine for the rest of his days.

I have a difficult time explaining this away without somehow damaging the built-in, well-defined concept of the dwarven "indominatable will."  I suspect, like everything else on Zalanthas, we are not being told the entire story here.


Seeker

[Xamminy]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough.  It has been done.  That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

[Seeker]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough. It has been done. That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

That is a simple, excellent answer.


Seeker

[wizturbo]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough. It has been done. That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

That is a simple, excellent answer.


Seeker

I agree...wow that's an awesome answer.  I never considered how they enslaved dwarves.

[jhunter]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough. It has been done. That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

So at one point there was a whole crapload of dwarves working as slaves in the mines right?

How in the hell do you convince that many dwarves that working in a mine will help them accomplish their focus? Especially when you don't know for certain what it is. And how do you keep them from talking amongst each other and figuring out between them that it's all bullshit?

I can see how one person might bend a single dwarf's focus to their will.

But how do you do it to so many, in the same place, for so long? Go around and do some one-on-one with each of your hundreds of slaves? Keep them from ever communicating with each other as they work in a mine?

The only feasible possibility I can see for this is the use of flat out mind control.

[wizturbo]

A focus can be bent to the will of someone crafty enough. It has been done. That is how a dwarf is enslaved.

The only feasible possibility I can see for this is the use of flat out mind control.

Yup.  Both psionic and non-psionic versions could apply.  

You get some good slave "breakers" who have experience working with dwarves and they could probably break a dozen or two slaves a year by finding their focus and working things a way that convinces the dwarf that the ONLY way to possibly forfill that focus is by mining obsidian in the mine.

[Savak]

On the other hand, a focus itself can enslave a dwarf in working towards its end.

Initially, the bulk of the dwarves were probably enslaved by force, but that really isn't the point at all.  A dwarf can still work as a slave, perhaps because it believes it cannot complete its focus if it stops -- they may "have" to finish in order to move on to the important thing (their focus).  But that really isn't the point, either.

A dwarf doesn't act like a human by virtue of the role they are in.  It's how they play that role.  There's oodles of positions or jobs a dwarf could hold -- how they are played determines whether they are "acting" like a short ugly bald human with muscles, or like a dwarf.

[Yokunama]

I agree with the 'focus' bit though, focus really gives your dwarven character something to thrive for, which is what we do with all our characters, am I right? But with dwarves, its a more powerful goal than with other races.

A goal is a goal no matter who sets it.

The goal means something more to dwarves, because of their "stubborn nature". Futhermore, this goal is not just something dwarves can just give up on at any given time. This goal is their life and they will not stop at nothing even if it means dieing trying to reach this goal.

~winks~  :wink: Don't let the newbies become more familar with the theme than you.

[moab]

Dwaves fear neither death or pain in the acheiving of their focus.  
Seeker

I think this is wrong.  I believe a dwarf actually fears death prior to achieving his focus.  I believe the docs read - hrm - lemme look it up.....

Actually, it seems as if Seeker is correct on this point.  I thought I had read (and maybe this simply came from a Dark Sun book that if a dwarf dies before achieving his focus he becomes some sort of undead thing.

Is this the case or not?

[Xamminy]

In the Dark Sun novels, a dwarf that abandons his focus will become undead upon death.

[Agent_137]

So basically, to enslave a dwarf by force, you say:
If you don't work for me, I'll kill you, and then you will never fulfill your focus.

To enslave one by words, you say:
The best way to achieve your focus is by working for me! *Insert bullshit reasoning here.*


Am I on the right track here?[/u]

[Lazloth]

Before you embark on a life of dwarven enslavement, you should probably brush up on the premise of a focus.  Some stuff is archived here and there.  Foremost, the notion of a focus is a concept known only to the dwarf in question (and some would argue not even to him/her.)

I think a lot of dwarves wind up with the "serve for life" focus, especially those cultivated into slavery.

[John]

nearly all of them at one time -were- slaves...

So people should include being enslaved in their background a lot more with only a small percent never having been enslaved?

[Rhyden]

Hey, nobody disrespects LOTR! Not that you did or anything, I was just getting that point across, oh yah, and Star Wars, don't be disrespecting those and we'll be on friendly grounds, now, where was I? Oh yes, Xygax...

I don't always play your stupid average Tolkien-invented, hard-liquered, ruff-tuff, scottish dwarf -all- the time, just most. In fact, I'll make a dwarf so pansy he'd hide from a gimpka if that was their personality. I'm simply stating that the Tolkien-version of the dwarf is probably the most easy to role-play in Armageddon, and yes, it gets boring after a while.

*If there's a better slightly stereotypical version of a dwarf in Zalanthas, I'll discover it IC, but I find that some stick to the Tolkien-dwarf and some just have no real personality at all. Of course there is the exception of the truly different dwarf tripping over his feet and munching on a kank-honey lollipop, singing to himself a marry tune about elves and whatnot.  :wink:

But if it would help matters at all, I'll try to get my mind off LOTR and more onto Darksun. This doesn't mean I'm going to completely copy darksun dwarves, it'll just give me a few new ideas, help evoke some of my own. But for those of you who generally play the Tolkien-dwarf out there, keep playing them!!! They add so much color to the game, especially in a really quiet, polite tavern, if you know what I mean  :twisted:

[Rhyden]

-By my dwarven beard this thread is getting long.

You're all probably going to hate me now, aren't you?

[Dracul]

nearly all of them at one time -were- slaves...

So people should include being enslaved in their background a lot more with only a small percent never having been enslaved?

I beleive Thats meant historically.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Dwarves are folk who live for a reason. This reason is, as your driving force is to you but doubly so, essential and all-encompassing to a dwarf. A dwarf most certianly fears death and pain, when it is not related to achieving their focus. Even when it is related, there is likely a better way to acheive their focus than by stupidly and brazenly defying any and all barriers and opposition.

A dwarf, while perhaps not quick of mind in the manner that a human is, is nontheless wiser than just about every race, for a dwarf will analyze and reanalyze every facat of his focus, every avenue that he can see, and he will choose the one that makes the most sense to him.  Rare, then, the dwarf with a willy-nilly attitude to anything.

This means that some dwarves will have a quick, short, and to the point manner about it, while other dwarves will take their time to uneeringly acheive their focus without conceivable possibility of failure. No dwarf is alike, and their manner of reaching their focus is not the same.

In many regards, dwarves are just like humans, when it comes to their personality and the way this affects them. There are cowardly dwarves just as there are cowardly humans, and brazen, bold dwarves just as there are human counterparts. There are friendly dwarves, surly dwarves, feindish dwarves, and certianly noble dwarves. There are dwarves who have had a relatively normal life, some who have had catastrophy strike them and theirs, and dwarves who have lived in and out of slavery.

All of those factors impact both what the dwarf's focus is, and how the dwarf will go about acheiving the focus. This means that while a dwarf must have a focus and must spend their lives trying to (in their own view, at least) achieve their focus, all other aspects of a dwarf are up for grabs, free for customization and personification.

Obviously, a dwarf can not spend 100% of his breathing life in active pursuit of his goal. This means, then, that a dwarf can enjoy the pub, can enjoy sexual relations, and can function briefly in a capacity which does not actively further his goal, such as raising children, maintianing a mercenary job or perhaps serving as a guide on some grand excursion. Even a dwarven body needs rest, and it during these times that one will see a dwarf at play.

But even during these times, when the dwarf figuratively stands and scans the horizon of his focus' landscape, he is furthering his focus. The mind still roves towards the goal, even if only in the farthest recesses of the brain, for the goal, the focus is not just an idea, an idealogy, a dream, or a facination. It is an instinct. It is as much a natural function for the dwarf as breathing is, and perhaps even more so.

Though dwarves can be one-dimensional, this is as unlikely as it is for a human to be so, for dwarves are persons with reactions and feelings just as other living creatures. The difference, then, lies in the fact that, where all creatures of intellect war with theirselves concerning what is important utmostly in their life, dwarves do not. They know.

A dwarf has no definition for failure personally, for a dwarf will only fail if he dies. He understands how the less motivated beings of the world can fail, but he can not comprehend the meaning of personal failure. If one road is closed for them, they will find another. And if all are closed and none can be found, then they will make another for themselves. It is in this regard that a dwarf is utterly fearless, for when the way must be dug, when it must be reopenned, only death itself (and perhaps, in some cases, not even then) will halt their progress. This single attribute is something that no other being under the sun can lay claim to.

You see, a dwarf knows what matters the most.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

So a dwarf can be played like a normal human, except that the focus is a decisive/main factor influencing the behavior of a dwarf?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So a dwarf can be played like a normal human, except that the focus is a decisive/main factor influencing the behavior of a dwarf?

No. See, this is the major misconception. The focus is not a decisive or main factor influencing a dwarf. It is the dwarf. The factor is what the dwarf is, or rather, the dwarf is what his focus is. hey govern each other, can not function without each other ... look at it as though it is a parasitic lifeform. They feed off one another.

So a dwarf can not be played correctly as a human, because their minds are utterly alien to that of a human. When I drew the relationship, it was in this: Dwarves have feelings and emotions, just like a human. They are not stolid walls of never-ending abrasion and non-emotionalism. The point is to create a dwarf that is not single dimensional, but rather facated, as they should be.

The focus will drive, urge, slave the dwarf, but the dwarf will go as he will. There is no focus without the dwarf, and there is no dwarf without the focus. This single thing makes it impossible for a dwarf to be correctly played as a human.

It is perhaps wise to say that the mind of a dwarf is so hard to role-play correctly that very few will ever get it utterly correct, myself included. It burdens the player with an unbelievable amount of responsibility and a somewhat skewed experience of fun.

To those who are successful, even if only in a passerbyer's view, kudos.

[Anonymous]

So a dwarf can be played like a normal human, except that the focus is a decisive/main factor influencing the behavior of a dwarf?

Now, let's evaluate the answer to this particular question:

So a dwarf can not be played correctly as a human, because their minds are utterly alien to that of a human. When I drew the relationship, it was in this: Dwarves have feelings and emotions, just like a human. They are not stolid walls of never-ending abrasion and non-emotionalism. The point is to create a dwarf that is not single dimensional, but rather facated, as they should be.

Huh.... okay....

The focus will drive, urge, slave the dwarf, but the dwarf will go as he will. There is no focus without the dwarf, and there is no dwarf without the focus. This single thing makes it impossible for a dwarf to be correctly played as a human.

Interesting...

It is perhaps wise to say that the mind of a dwarf is so hard to role-play correctly that very few will ever get it utterly correct, myself included.

Oh!

Let's try to organize all of that: a dwarf has emotions (like a human), but the focus serves as the driving force in his/her entire life. You failed to mention what aspects of the dwarf it influences (all of them?). Does it influence emotions (it influences decisions, we know that)? Why I am pointing this out is - (no offense to Deadly Z) because you didn't answer the question, you merely made a few states that simply corroborate it on some levels. I think the reason why you cannot play (or others for that matter) a dwarf properly is because you do not know -how-.... you know they should have a focus, but you do not understand how to function with it, how to interpret events in terms of it, and how to develops the personality with respect to it. That is why dwarves are usually bland or Tolkien-types.

You're all probably going to hate me now, aren't you?

For a while now.

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[Delirium]

I thought 7D's post was nicely written, actually, and it gave me courage to perhaps try the dwarven mindset with a future character. I was always very intimidated by it, much moreso than the elven mindset.

I've seen two very well played dwarves, lots of mediocre dwarves and plenty more bad ones. It doesn't strike me as an easy thing to pull off.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm incapable of comprehending complex ideas.

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[Rhyden]

Hey, Anonymous, Salam dirr or whatever the hell you are, it seems you don't like me. Well, frankly, I'm not too keen with you either. It seems whatever I write in this GDB, you have to argue, or accuse, or simply insult. Stop, now. This is a general discussion board. People can have opinions. People don't need personal critics on their backs in this board. So stop, now. You're starting to look like a 2 year old child. Sorry if this is off-topic, but I'm not gonna start a completely new post about this sillyness.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Dirr,

While I think that perhaps you are trying to pick the whole thing apart, I'll humor you, because I may actually not have answered the question, and since that is what I was trying to do, it is important that all folk who read this (normal and pinko alike :lol: ) understand it.

Question:So a dwarf can be played like a normal human, except that the focus is a decisive/main factor influencing the behavior of a dwarf?

Answer No. The reason that a dwarf can not be played like a normal human is because a dwarf's focus is not a decisive or main factor in their life. A focus is the dwarf. The dwarf is a living focus.

The amount of sleep the dwarf will normally require will depend upon their foci. The types of food consumed may be governed by the same. The topics the dwarf is likely to bring up while conversing will likely concern the foci. The clothes the dwarf wears, the tattooes he will get, the dwarf he will mate with, the way he will rear his children .... every single facat of a dwarf's life is dictated by the focus the dwarf has.

There is absolutely nothing that the dwarf does that goes against his focus. There may be things that do not actively help his focus, but you can be sure that while that dwarf releases the tension of life through sexual encounters, he will be thinking about his focus, even if he is not completely aware that he is. While he drinks and chats about the upcoming arena fight, cogs in his head will spin concerning his focus and how better to perfect his accomplishment of it. The focus exists in every single thing.

To give blatant examples of a dwarf commoner ---

Kro is a 21 year old dwarf.  Young, brash, his focus has developed into a yearning of knowledge. Though there are many facats to such a foci, he particullarly leans towards knowledge of elven heritage. So, Kro has a foci to develop his knowledge of evlen history.

Kro must eat to live in the harsh enviro of Allanak, so he takes a job as a field worker. Every day but Nekrete, he trudges out with the other field workers, many of whom are slaves, and labor beneath the hot sun for most of the day, cultivating roots and grubs and wheat and so forth. While Kro works, he talks to folks about life, generally keeping it light and airy and subtle so that the slave drivers and field masters do not punish him for talking too much.

He may make a comment such as, "That arena match last night was brutal, a violent display of swordsmanship, aye, mate? Why, I sure thought that mul would rip the head from that half-breed, but damned fine footwork from that one, no? Must be that elven blood in him, ya think? I mean, I've hearda longnecks out running packs of gith. You think they bred for that or something?"

You see, in the above example, Kro, while laboring in the fields for sid and talking about an arena match, completely managed to mold the chatter into something regarding his foci, and it is highly likely that he did not even realize it.

Let us have another.

Kro has met a dwarven female named Brianna. He feels so strongly about her that he decides that he is going to mate with her, maybe for a long time. Apparently, Brianna feels the same way about Kro. Brianna has had a foci since her days as a plump youth to breed warriors. Obviously, that means that she will be selecting fathers whom she believes will make good stock.  At the same time, she takes a job as a mercenary, because she thinks that is she is a capable warrior, it will be in her blood to pass on to her offspring.

Brianna, however, feels no need to love these stock. The love she has in her heart is reserved for Kro, because Kro is such an intelligent dwarf, or seems to be. He is gentle mannered and will not get in her way, and she has no reason to get in his way. He understands that she will mate with other dwarves, and he does not care too much because it is likely that he will be off somewhere anyway, foraging for knowledge in abscure and likely complicated fashions.

So, Kro loves Brianna and wishs to mate with her because she does not hinder him in any way, in fact is supportive of his forays into the world for knowledge, and she is skilled in bed. Brianna loves Kro because he does not hinder her in her pursuit of a warrior child, possesses knowledge that may benefit her in the long run, and is mild mannered enough that her occasional short outbursts will not be taken as they would be by a more formidable dwarven male. On top of these rational, there is the simple emotion of attraction and lust and simple love, which is a combination of all that attracts one to another in the first place.

A final one ....

Kro, eager to be on his way for knowledge, leaves his mate and her newborn child with a heartfelt goodbye and journeys into the wilderness, hopefully for Luir's Outpost, where it is said that one can serve with elves personally. On the way, an elven raider attacks him. Now Kro, who is no real fighter, nonetheless is decent with a big stick and soon the lanky longleg is on the ground, fearful for his life. Kro, who glances at the sky and sees a sandstorm coming, knows that he should get on his way and find safe shelter.

Nope, this chance is too good to pass up, and so without further thought, he cracks the elf a tight one in the head, laying the longneck out cold. When the elf awakes, he is fettered with solidly tied ropes of grass, laying in a tent surrounded by the howling sandstorm. The dwarf Kro offers the elf food and water, but we know elves, eh? No doing. Kro shrugs and gets down to the real reasoning for his kidnapping of the elf. Stories. Lots and lots of stories, what the elf knows about his race, what the elf eats from day to day, how the elf has sex, how the elf runs so fast. If the elf doesn't answer, it's a hard left to the nose and the question gets asked again. This goes on for several days before the storm finally lets up. Kro is extremely thirsty now, but he keeps pouring his dwindling supply of liquid down the elf's throat so that he can still speak and tell his stories.

It's time to part, so Kro knocks the poor elf out again and leaves him in the sands, then packs the tent and heads on towards Luir's Outpost. So eager had he been to gain knowledge from the elf that he had no water left, and he nearly dies before he reachs those black walls of the Outpost...


I hope this answer and the sequel of examples have assisted you in further understanding what it is to be a dwarf. I'll post with my view on other issues raised as I can.

[Maybe42or54]

Wow. Who's up for playing a dwarf with me?

[Anonymous]

That is a very comprehensive answer -and- fulfilling one, at that. Likewise, I think it is a good representation of what a dwarf should be on Zalanthas - the example, especially, includes a variety of aspects of behavior, which are all equally important in character creation and development.

Sa'alam,

Dirr

PS: At some point in time - this thread could be useful in the archives.

[Nine_lives]

Maybe I've missed some piece of literature I should have read over, but would a dwarf openly discuss his/her focus, or is it something entirely personal that they tend not to share with others?

I am aware that personality and the question of whether the sharing of one's focus would be beneficial to the focus itself must be taken into account, but what I'm really looking for is whether it is some kind of taboo or simply not a piece of information the dwarven race feel necessary to inform other individuals about.

Thanks  

[Marauder Moe]

Dwarves wouldn't really meet someone and say "Hi, I'm Grog and my focus is to get a metal sword."

Its not an issue of being private or not, its that dwarves don't have a word for it.  The term 'focus' is completely OOC.

Now, sure, plenty of dwarves would talk about their foci because they think about it all the time, just not with the word 'focus'.  Of course, if discussing one's focus would endanger it (such as a sorceror dwarf wanting to topple Tek's tower) then certainly it would be kept a secret.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There's a couple things that should be clarified.

Kro is a 21 year old dwarf. Young, brash, his focus has developed into a yearning of knowledge. Though there are many facats to such a foci, he particullarly leans towards knowledge of elven heritage. So, Kro has a foci to develop his knowledge of evlen history.

First off, a 21 year old dwarf is the developmental equivalent of a 14 year old human.

Second, that's not a particularly good example of a dwarf.

We're all here just to have fun, so you should create a focus that you, as a player, would enjoy going through in the game. That said, your focus should be grounded in the history and personality of your character. Since a focus is not an alien presence that comes upon a dwarf, but rather a natural feeling that is inseparable from them, the nature of their focus should arise from what comes naturally to them. For most dwarves, their life has been hard and their needs rudimentary - and their focus should reflect this. A focus of providing food for an ailing relative, escaping slavery from a cruel master, serving a kind master with absolute trust, gaining revenge on a man who killed your brother - these things are all taken from the day to day life of the dwarf, and thus, are appropriate.

Read that carefully, because few people seem to really understand it.  A dwarf doesn't develop their focus in spite of their environment, they develop their focus in response to their environment.  It doesn't make a great deal of sense for a 21 year old dwarven peasant to have a focus to gain knowledge of elven history.  What does a young dwarf care about elves?  They're basically like humans in her eyes, except even taller and skinnier!  Furthermore, she's heard that they're just one big group of untrustworthy merchants, so when possible she avoids buying from them.  No, her main concern is continuing the family line.  Wouldn't it be a shame if when she died in one-hundred years, her bloodline died with her?  She needs to find a suitable mate who will produce children of acceptable quality, find a way to provide for them, and then have as many as she possibly can, since half of them are likely to die before they reach the age of five.  Then she has to make sure the ones that reach adulthood find mates as she did!

If a dwarf was brought up in wealth and comfort (I'll leave how this might happen to your imagination) then she might indeed settle upon a scholarly focus, such as chronicling elven history.

I think a mistake that too many people make is coming up with a focus that's quite simply, improbable.  Exploring the known world.  Compelling the Dragon to return to Zalanthas.  Joining a desert elf tribe.  And yes, becoming the greatest warrior d00d (Think about this one for a moment.  If your dwarf isn't a gladiator, then exactly what circumstances would cause him to pursue such an unlikely focus?).  I'll admit it, I've pursued at least one of these foci in the past.  But recently, I've come to the understanding that if I want a crazy focus, then I should make it clear in my background that my character is a madman.

And as a sidenote, I'd like to challenge the notion that the term focus is an OOC concept.  It doesn't seem to indicate that anywhere in the documentation.

[Marauder Moe]

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/focus.html

A dwarf likely does not refer to their focus in terms of "this is my focus." To them, it is entirely natural; the focus is what it means to be alive.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That doesn't indicate to me that the focus is an OOC term.  Rather, it makes me think it was a term invented by humans.  Human slavers, most likely.

[Marauder Moe]

Perhaps.  I suppose only the staff can settle it for sure, though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think that I said that the focus was a good one. I, in fact, only made up this character to have a test subject to use for examples related to other than combat, which is what just about everyone gives their dwarf in terms of a focus, particullarly newbies. A focus can be as mundane or as exotic as you want it.

Additionally, I do not think that exotic foci should make a dwarf a madman, since dwarves are already mad in the sense that they even have these binding, boundless foci. No one knows persicely how a dwarf chooses their foci anyway, not even the dwarf. To them it is not a focus, it is an instinct just like eating and shitting. It has been, is, and will be. It is more of an "I've decided to do -insert blank here- and that's just what I'll do," with no erring from the course.

If dwarves did not pick exotic foci at times, then all dwarves would be commoners or hunters or such equally mundane creatures, and we know they are not always this. So, frankly, I encourage one to pick an exotic foci, or, at least, a foci not relating to mundane, common tasks.

To me, PCs are a step above your typical peer in most cases, save for the PC in a noble family or a merchant family, and as such, PCs are rightly sanctioned to indulge in oddities not commonly undertaken by their NPC peers.

On a last note, while the docs do say that often foci are related to day-to-day tasks and concerns, they also say that a focus should be very difficult, if not impossible, to acheive. In the last few days, in fact, staff themselves have posted such implications. In said light, I lean towards the impossible, kill-a-dwarf, improbable-odds foci as opposed to the daily life focus, since, as the docs say again, we are all here to have fun and your focus should be fun to play.

And with ALL of that siad, if you like a mundane foci, then certianly do one. Variety is what makes this game great.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A focus is, by definition, never easy.  Just because it's mundane, doesn't make it easy.  Let's take an example from the documentation.  Caring for an ailing relative.  Sounds pretty simple, doesn't it?  From a coded stand-point, all you need to do is get a job, decide how much it costs to take care of the relative (a VNPC) and somehow make that many coins disappear every month, right?  Right?!  No, no, no...

An example of a dwarf commoner...

Grunden's mother is sick, and has been ever since he was very young.  He knows that she will never recover, and so his focus is to care for her until she passes away.

Unfortunately for Grunden, her treatment is expensive.  There isn't any way he can afford the physician's medicine when all he earns 50 sid a week as a laborer.  So in order to get more coins, he gets a job with House Kurac smuggling spice into Allanak.  Every day he leaves the gates, and returns with a cartful of obsidian with an illegal bundle secured within.  The guards haven't caught on so far.

If it was that simple, Grunden would be a far luckier creature than he is.  Unfortunately, his mother's focus is to avenge the death of her daughter, who had been ordered whipped to death after she offended a wealthy merchant.  Grunden realizes that if she attempts to complete this focus on her own, her already tenuous grip on life could be extinguished.  If she dies, he will fail in his focus.  Knowing full well that persuading her to give up her focus is the very definition of futility, he's instead travelled the only path possible:  acting as her pawn.  At first he assisted her as much as she would allow, since she insisted on taking a personal hand in the matter.  As her health grew worse, she gradually decided that acting through subordinates was the only way to succeed in her focus, and she allowed Grunden to be her agent.  He has to manage these affairs in complete exactance with her specifications, because she insists that he carry out the revenge in the exact manner that she has envisioned it.

During his free time one night, Grunden had a conversation with a human, who told him of the mystical healing powers of ground tembo-tooth.  Grunden decides that in order to properly care for his mother, he'll need to give her a dose monthly.  He doesn't have the time, resources, or ability to hunt the tembo himself, and although that's his first impulse, he decides to delegate the task to another.  Unfortunately, even with the Kurac side-job, he doesn't have nearly enough money to do this.  And his mother's demands are growing increasingly, and he's quickly running out of money to fuel her obsession.  He decides that it's time to up the ante.  He approaches a blue-robed templar and reveals his job with Kurac, promising to act as an informant in exchange for money.  Though it solves his financial crisis for the time being, it creates an entirely new monster for poor Grunden...

*****

I think we agree that a dwarf's focus should be difficult.  The only discrepancy was how we envision a difficult focus.  I think that every focus is difficult, and every focus has the potential to be very interesting.  It doesn't matter if the focus is creating a merchant house, or baking a loaf of bread.  So in conclusion, I think that a focus is by its very nature, interesting and difficult.  You don't need to go out of your way to make it that way, because if you're playing your character correctly, than your character will make sure that it's difficult and interesting.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

S'fair. Witness the debate on dwarves on the Venomz and Slade Show, this week, on Zalanthas Extra.

[sjanimal]

Time for me to weigh in on this one.

It seems to me that the focus is similar to compulsive behavior in humans.

As such, it seems that a few dwarves will be aware that they have this compulsive behavior, while most people who suffer from compulsive behavior will never even be aware of the problem.

Also, I doubt that most non-dwarves would be aware of this tendency, since xenophobia and prejudices dominate Zalanthan mindsets rather than the facts.  Most people might be aware that dwarves can be really stubborn at times about seemingly silly things.

Even if a dwarf were aware of their focus, it seems doubtful they would want to talk about it with people they didn't trust, seeing as this would give other people a useful way to manipulate the dwarf, and most Zalanthans seem fairly paranoid.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think those are apt conclusions, sjanimal. You're on the right track.