The Noble Skill Set

[jhunter]

Most people that play martial nobles spar. This is bad.

I'd have to disagree with this. I sincerely hope this isn't a staff position on this.

[Ayashah]

IC -

Some nobles will and are expected to be savy in weapon skills. House documents support this fact. Unless said documents are wiped and changed, it is IC for them to train.

Some nobles would look severely down on any that are savy in weapon skills. House documents support this fact. Unless said documents are wiped and changed, it is IC for them to think those that lower themselves to handling a weapon are below them.

OOC -

Nobles are very limiting, and at times, boring roles that are kept more in the dark at times than commoners. Things nobles should 'pick up' from their Houses to run their day to day duties are sometimes kept from them with the 'you are a low noble and dont need to know'. Granted, maybe they dont need to know but rumors, false or true, should circulate in from servants for an idea on 'how' the Seniors feel on something so that they have a feel for how they do their duties.

Those taking these roles know they are limiting and accept that with the role. Now, asking a player to play a limiting role AND expecting them to be on often to keep the PCs in their House occupied and enjoying their rp time with the House, then giving them absolutely no outlet to whittle away the long hours when none of their PCs are on will only lead to less players wanting to bother with the roles. I have heard many players complain on these very things and say they are pretty happy when their PCs die so they can go have fun. This is not always the case but some do feel that way.

There is a player behind that role that wants to enjoy the role just as much as the player behind the cook in the clan. To limit the role to "you must play a flop because you are too good to do anything but lay about and order others to wipe your crack" will, in my thoughts, limit the amount of players that will want to play nobles. Its sort of like the independents. Why should they join a clan is an attitude some have. They can make more in a RL week, not have restrictions, etc.

Some might say "nobles are there to help the imms facilitate rp within the clan and have taken on that responsibility". Agreed, they have. But they arent machines either. You see it all the time:

New noble, on a ton. Had the noble awhile, log times start to be short or sporadic. Longer the noble is in game, the less seen about. Post goes on the GDB for openings in said House for new nobles.

I guess I am rambling now. Its early and my coffee hasnt kicked in. Basically, take what few pleasure the players of the nobles have to fill in time when they arent plotting and are basically idling to be available to the other players in the House and you make the role very unappealing to fill.

Just my 2 sids and not meant to be presented as the opinion in whole on the mud or even in part.

[Gaare]

Most people that play martial nobles spar. This is bad.

I agree that quote.

Why would a noble spar? To protect himself in danger? or winning aganist duels aganist the men under his command? Or to become a leader in an assult?

There are nobles who live to fight and lead armies in both Cities. They are called Templar.

I do not think an ordinary noble has something to do with fighting, therefore I believe there shouldn't be even a piece of fighting skills in a noble's list.

A second point I'd like to mention (I hope not too IC). There are many guilds in game that have almost no combat skills in their list. That seems a bit unrealistic to me since I am sure an adult D-elf would have a weapon skill even in low degree because they have to live in wilderness, had to protect themselves in some decree. On the other hand there is no weapon skill in their list. I believe there are merchanic reasons why they do not have.

IMO that's same for a usual noble, they should not have any combat skills in their list. That could be unrealistic a bit, but with this way they suit game mechanics better.

[wizturbo]

I'd REALLY like a Highlord or above statement on this.  What Xamminy is saying seems contradictory to a lot of things i've seen in game, and I'd like to know whether or not I should unlearn those things.


With that said...

Poisons are not all together uncureable.  Having an extremely loyal house physician on hand, or, if your house doesn't mind hiring magicker (Oash and Tor both hire magickers) then it wouldn't be completely out of the question to have a master healer Vivadu on hand, one that has been thoroughly tested to be absolutely certain of their loyalty.  Also, the Templarate has the capabilities of curing poisons, so if poisoned a noble could call for a Templar to come to the rescue, while the house physician does what they can to slow the poison.  

I could easily see Senior nobles never sparring.  They're too important to risk it.  But a junior noble is OFTEN not so closely guarded.  I don't see all Junior nobles having servants with them to taste every piece of food or drink brought to them to test for poison.  I don't see people brought to them for a meetings thoroughly searched for weapondry before hand.  MANY precautions when dealing with junior nobles are not taken, so I really don't see why sparring is a "No No".  Sparring with some common no-body of course would be absolutely unheard of, but sparring with a life sworn swordmaster that has faithfully served the House for decades doesn't seem unlikely to me.  Or, sparring with extremely loyal slaves doesn't seem unheard of either.  The very small risk of dying from a poisoned sparring weapon in my opinion, is worth taking, in comparison to the enormous danger of being unable to defend themselves from any common fellow with a dagger that manages to penetrate their guards.  

Again, I'd -really- like a Highlord or above's opinion on this so I can properly adjust my roleplay when applicable in the future.

[A One Time Martial Noble]

Why would a noble spar? To protect himself in danger? or winning aganist duels aganist the men under his command? Or to become a leader in an assult?

There are nobles who live to fight and lead armies in both Cities. They are called Templar.

-To protect himself from danger: Check. If you're a noble of a military House and someone gets past your guards, it would probably be a big downplay of the House's reputation to see you fall to a filthy, murdering commoner. But on the other hand, you're the militant noble, powerful, and any commoner who would get past your guards has just made a mistake in coming face to face with a 'true' warrior.

-Winning against duels against the men under his command? Never. A noble would never duel a common man unless it was specifically in his defense. In fact, the noble would be laughed at for lowering himself to be the aggressor in crossing swords with a commoner if he struck first, no matter whether it was his own men or not. But there is one House out there who DOES practice the use of challenging for a duel against another noblilty if they feel they have been GREATLY wronged.

-To become a leader in an assault. Check. While a noble would never put himself on the front line in a battle when there is common blood to fight it out first, many a times, the nobility of a militant House WILL accompany their men, or their City's Templarate on a mission outside.  What good will he do out there if personally attacked? No good if he isn't prepared... Very good if he's trained as a MILITANT person should.

-About Templars: Yes, they do lead armies, they lead the respective militia of each side, not the military units of a militant House. That's what the  militant nobles of the militant Houses do.

I don't buy into the idea that a militant noble is Van Dammeing his martial skills, just looking good at it and never truly training to be effective in it. I've also been playing the game for a few years, and never in my time have I known it as a bad thing for martial nobles to be combat effective, especially not in my time as one, or I'd have comments on my account about it I'm sure.

[ashyom]

Although I'm not a HL, I can reinforce what Xamminy said, which was correct.  Nobles that do spar are an exception to the rule.  They're rare, and seen as an oddity amongst the nobility - even amongst the Tors and their northern counterpart (whose name fails to come to my fingers).  

The trend of sparring/fighting Nobles started when some players used a couple Noble PCs (who were supposed to be unusual) as their role model and imitated that behavior.

Yes, most or all nobles ideally would've received some self-defense instructions in their youths as a part of protective measure.  However, a majority of them would not pursue an actual, life-long martial combat study.

Remember - PC Nobles represent just a fraction of the actual number of nobility in-game.  So what you've seen of PC nobles in the past isn't necessarily an accurate representation of what nobles are/should be like.
Hope this helps a little.
-Ashyom

[Krath]

Although I'm not a HL, I can reinforce what Xamminy said, which was correct.  Nobles that do spar are an exception to the rule.  They're rare, and seen as an oddity amongst the nobility - even amongst the Tors and their northern counterpart (whose name fails to come to my fingers).

House Lyksae

[Jacques]

[derailment]There really isn't a true northern equivalent for House Tor. Most people associate House Lyksae with that role, since they're a military house that helps out the militia.  However, remember that just 4 generations or so ago, House Lyksae did not exist. They were (if my fading memory serves) formed after the liberation of Tuluk. Last I checked, Lyksae was also not open to PCs.[/derailment]

Something nobody commented on from mansa's very detailed and generally well-thought-out post:

Nobles with the BACKSTAB skill? No way. Never. I just can't see it. I could imagine virtually ANYTHING, including them all being sorcerors and having vast Jell-o orgies in the sewers of Allanak (OK, so I've got an odd imagination), before I could imagine a noble trained in this skill.

[Fnord]

Unfortunately this thread has derailed, but oh well, I'll chime in.

I agree that nobles sparring other nobles would be rare, and nobles sparring commoners almost unheard of.

However, the Tor Academy has facilities for friendly matches between Allanak's upper shelf. -Some- nobles would take a fancy to knowing their shit with a weapon. A tactically minded noble (like a Tor) would know how many ways one can be seperated from their guards, and that their last defense is themself. A military instructor also couldn't teach shit from purely book smarts. An elite guard or soldier would sniff out such a poser in a heartbeat.

The whole thing about poisoning training weapons amuses me. One would think that if being poisoned at any time were such a big concern that every noble would have their Aide (or another servant) test their food and water before ever tasting it. Getting clipped with a poisoned training weapon, that was removed from a locked case, poisoned, returned, and locked back up (nobles could easily afford such things), would be low on the list. The discovery of such a weapon would likely result in the execution of any house staff responsable for letting it happen. At least that's what I'd do.

In conclusion, a fairly recent public noble document was modified from the original draft to address the unique qualities of certain Houses, and I believe that should be the case here, too.

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!

[Ayashah]

Nobles with the BACKSTAB skill? No way. Never. I just can't see it. I could imagine virtually ANYTHING, including them all being sorcerors and having vast Jell-o orgies in the sewers of Allanak (OK, so I've got an odd imagination), before I could imagine a noble trained in this skill.

Backstab skill isnt a BACKSTAB. Its a critical hit, whether it be to the eye, chest, throat, back, etc, that is sudden. That being said, that means someone did it with sudden surprise in a first strike. Nobles driven to the point of wanting to personally strike another wouldnt do one as they, at the point of drawing their weapon, wouldnt have the 'surprise' advantage of the sudden thrust. So I agree that nobles shouldnt have backstab.

[Ayashah]

Although I'm not a HL, I can reinforce what Xamminy said, which was correct.  

Gotta say that is wrong. Maybe for some nobles it's right but not all. Again, unless House documents are wiped and changed, I know of atleast one Noble House that has it in their docs that they train and are expected to train where a fop in that House would be looked down upon. If this is considered not right/obsolete, those documents need to be changed.

[Intrepid]

Gotta say that is wrong. Maybe for some nobles it's right but not all. Again, unless House documents are wiped and changed, I know of atleast one Noble House that has it in their docs that they train and are expected to train where a fop in that House would be looked down upon. If this is considered not right/obsolete, those documents need to be changed.

I second this and have found the document in question that Xamminy
is referencing.  Written by Xamminy this year, in fact.  I believe it is
an unfair generalization of the noble houses and contradicts the themes
of at least two houses in Allanak alone.  I would agree that this doc
should be examined again and possibly revised, if possible, or House
Tor and Oash both redesigned so that neither of them have any form
of personal merit attached to their doings, being entirely reliant on
people around them.  This would better match the documentation that
has been more recently written, as it contradicts years of gameplay.

I don't mean to offend anyone, particularly not Xamminy, but there
needs to be consistency from one side of the equation or the other.

[Twilight]

I would envision three sets of skills that a Noble class would get.  Below is an outline to give an idea, not a full fleshing out.  I think every Noble subclass (ie House) should get one special skill/ability at least, but I am braindead atm, and can't think of any more.

Noble Class-
Skills in the noble class are like normal skills, ie you start at a low skill level, and have to work up to a decent one.  Nobles would never branch.

Psionic-
Contact
Barrier

Combat-
Shield Use
Two Handed
Dual Wield

Languages
Sirihish
R/W Sirihish

Crafting-
Analyze
Cooking

Ride-can be added normally

Subclass Skills-
These would be determined by one's House.  With the except of languages, they would ALL start at a moderate level dependent on which skill it is, and can only be increased slightly to the max (ie you might start with a skill lev of 30 instead of 5, but can only increase to 35 instead of 70).  I've listed the Southern Houses, because I am not familiar enough with the northern ones.  All subguilds would flag with appropriate clan flags, nocrim, etc.  In addition, the hidden skills of Defense/Offense should be based on Subguild, both starting level and max.  Tor might have a moderate level, Fale might have a low one, etc, along the philosophy of the rest of the subguild skills.

Tor-
Slashing weapons
Kick
Tactics—This would increase the combat advantage increased numbers on one target has.
Bandage
Charge
Tor Nobility Combat Form—Develop a combat form per the code from 2? Years ago and give to all Tor Nobility, for slashing weapons.  Mostly for show.

Fale-
Floristry
Cooking
Hearty-Increased resistance to alchohol, spice and perhaps poisons.
Sleight of Hand
Peek—To determine how fashionable one truly is! (ie see the full wear message)
Swindler's Luck—Favorable odds at all coded games.  Darts, spice run, etc.
Instrument making

Borsail-
Whips-Isn't there an advanced weapon skill for whips?
Subdue-slaves
Flee-Mul slaves
Value
Mirukkim
R/W Mirukkim
Hunt-If there is a city version
Sap-Pesky slaves

Oash-
Cavilish
R/W Cavilish
Bendune
Value
Haggle
Pilot?
Brewing—If making beverages ever made it into this skill
Search


In addition, at the end of creation, the individual gets to pick ONE of the following skills (except for languages, one language set) for their character.  It would start at a low level (except for languages) of skill, with a normal guild's max skill level.

Locate
Poisoning
Scan-City version
Sneak-city version
Hide-city version
Listen
Trap
Slashing Weapons
Bludgeoning Weapons
Chopping Weapons
Piercing Weapons
Parry
Cavilish/R/W Cavilish
Bendune/ R/W Bendune
Allundean/ R/WAllundean
Mirrukim/ R/W Mirrikum

[Sanvean]

The only House where it would be appropriate for a noble to spar -might- be Tor.  Even then, a Tor is trained to be a commander, not a combatant - military history and strategy would be far more important than bladework.  

Most nobles are dilettantes, tending to focus on an area of knowledge or expertise as a hobby.  A noble might be interested in bladework, but it would be viewed along the same lines as Lord Clarion's passion for collecting rare mosses or Lady Hypatia's sets of trained twin bodyslaves.  A noble who knows how to use a sword gains no dignity or prestige from it.

It would be demeaning and embarassing for a noble to cross swords with a commoner, and it might end up in the commoner being arrested and/or executed for daring to lift a blade against noble blood.

There you have it.

[Xygax]

If you have found documentation that conflicts with Sanveans statements above (or doesn't clearly enough reflect them), please e-mail me privately.

Thanks,
 X

[Ayashah]

All I can say is...wow. That is completely different from the attitude of Tor when I had my noble in the early 2000's. I know it was never acceptable to 'spar' a commoner and our imm told us to only spar with other nobles then but ...wow.

I guess I have to totally readjust my thinking on all nobles. Granted though, the PC population of the world is always referred to as the noticed ones or exceptions to the rule so I guess some could still use that for an IC reason to spar and know weapons.

[Intrepid]

The only House where it would be appropriate for a noble to spar -might- be Tor. Even then, a Tor is trained to be a commander, not a combatant - military history and strategy would be far more important than bladework.

Ok, I could be reading into this too much, but it sounds like sparring in
the Tor pcs may have gotten out of control at one point?  I mean, while
I do believe they should have pretty good potential to fight, I wouldn't
expect them to spar as much as, say, commoners.  Though I will admit
that the first batch of Tor pcs sparred more than my bodyguard ranger
who used to hang out with them, and they were easily able to wipe
the floor with her.  In the matter of tactics, wouldn't a tactician need to
have some sort of practical combat training to know firsthand what is
and is not possible?

Most nobles are dilettantes, tending to focus on an area of knowledge or expertise as a hobby. A noble might be interested in bladework, but it would be viewed along the same lines as Lord Clarion's passion for collecting rare mosses or Lady Hypatia's sets of trained twin bodyslaves. A noble who knows how to use a sword gains no dignity or prestige from it.

Even back when I played a Fale, I tried to make her more than just a
barfly.  She was wacky and had some bizarre ideas that she would try
to implement, but never just a dilettante.  I hope the idea of hobbies
and expertise is never restricted, but I guess this does beg the
question: Is it inconceivable for a noble to just be good at something?

It would be demeaning and embarassing for a noble to cross swords with a commoner, and it might end up in the commoner being arrested and/or executed for daring to lift a blade against noble blood.

I absolutely agree with this, and I think such a rule can restrict a noble
pc from sparring too terribly much, unless there was a large number of
noble pcs in the same house who were sparaholics.   That said, I still
think of Allanak nobles in particular as being much like the Atreides
nobles in their training, though with Fale nobles replacing the nastier
expertise with culture and esoteric knowledge.

[wizturbo]

That said, I still think of Allanak nobles in particular as being much like the Atreides nobles in their training, though with Fale nobles replacing the nastier expertise with culture and esoteric knowledge.

Nobles in the Dune books are basically nothing like the nobles in Zalanthas.  Nobles of the Houses in Dune were some of the best warriors, whereas, according to what i'm hearing now, Zalanthas nobles are sissies that any commoner who's been through a year in the Byn could murder in a heartbeat if they bypassed the guard's defenses.

[Intrepid]

Actually, I was more referring to the wide variety of education from
various personal tutors.  I wasn't referring to having nobles be the
best asskickers in the game.

If, however, all the nobles can be classified as a group of ignorant,
uneducated sissies who couldn't walk to the inn by themselves without
dying of thirst and starvation, why take them seriously?  Why even
play a noble when you can play a templar, have an actual purpose,
wield power that isn't implied, and seem to act solely as spacetakers,
moneyspenders and faceless employers that could be just as well
served as npcs rather than pcs?

I could be wrong about this, but it seems as if many of the higher
karma or special app options are being demonized more and more
from the general society.  Hiring elves is taboo by just about everyone,
hiring magickers is taboo by just about everyone, sorcs are illegal,
mantis/gith/halflings would get shot on the spot, psis are illegal, muls
will be auto-enslaved and now nobles all resemble Fales regardless of
which house they originate from.  It seems almost as if there is a
punishment for picking an option with more power and/or politics to
it, unless you are a templar of some sort; having not played one in
several years, I could be wrong about that.  Still, while I wouldn't
expect free handouts, it just seems as if everything needs to be
illegal or breaking social ordinance in some way to actually accomplish
anything or be something other than just a puppet unless you are a
ranger, merchant or warrior with a human race tag.

Am I far off base here?

[Sanvean]

As with many other things, many people have insisted on running the exception rather the norm in these roles, and having to rein nobles in from sparring has been an ongoing problem.  Part of the source of the problem are the advantages of the role: you usually have a place that is tempting for sparring in the form of an estate, and you have the money to hire people to spar with you.  

The same thing happens with noble magick users, which is why we don't accept them; usually the person ends up sitting in a room spam-practicing spells (yes, I know there are always exceptions; this does not mean this has not been a problem).

Part of the confusion in this discussion is that we have different ideas of nobles in our heads, taken from a variety of science fiction and fantasy books ranging from George Martin to Dune and so forth.

So - why does Allanak have nobles?  (I'm speaking specifically about Allanak, but most of what I will say applies to Tuluk as well)

The nobles wield considerable political and economic power, which has been built up over the course of centuries.  In part, they were created by Tektolnes in order to divert attention away from the templarate, and to give the commoners people to hate or love. A noble born into one of the Houses knows s/he has a life of luxury and privilege ahead of them, and knows deep down in their hearts that they deserve this life because they are special, and have noble blood.  They do not feel any obligation to support the House, which is run and maintained by the Senior Nobles.  

When I say dilettante, I'm not implying that they cannot be good at something.  I'm implying that they don't -need- to be good at it, and a noble may have difficulty achieving goals that involve their own suffering or dedication, due to the attitude above.  A noble whose hobby is the sword may in fact become quite good at it over time.  But it's still going to be considered embarassing and shameful for her/him to cross blades with a commoner.  And even more embarassing should it be implied that s/he depends for their livelihood on that talent.

Much of a noble house's power rests in built-up reserves and their good name.  Junior nobles will be discouraged from risky ventures that might harm the House, and generally things that might increase a House's wealth or power are considered carefully and deliberated over by the senior nobles. Negotiations with Red-Robed or Black-Robed templars are complex and multi-layered; often noble houses will look for and make alliances with up and coming Blues in order to have a potential Red-Robed ally years down the road.

Could the nobles challenge the templarate?  No.  But they could make the life of a specific templar or group of templars more difficult, and the templarate knows this and treats them accordingly.  The templarate is also willing to leave much of the governing of the city nominally in noble hands, which leads to the Senate, where bills may be affected by the opinion of the templarate, but are in name at least approved by the noble representatives - who know better than to approve something that templarate dislikes and thus risk their cushy existence.

A noble player should remember that they are a small cog in a large establishment; a noble family is not a nuclear one, with Mom, Dad, and Junior.  Instead it's a conglomeration of cousins and siblings, aunts, uncles, half-brothers and sisters, most of whom are concerned with their status in the House and willing to struggle to maintain it.  Throw bastard children, who usually end up in positions of authority among the servants, such as major domo, butler, or head housekeeper, into the mix and you have a tangled web of alliances.

I hope that helps explain the staff's conception of the nobility.  My apologies for rambling at such lengths.

[Ayashah]

Dont apologize, Sanvean, that post was rather good at explaining things and clearer. Its appreciated to have someone spell things out a bit more.

Though I was able 'to' spar when I had my Tor, I think my IC brother and I only got to a few times. I cant see anyone realistically sparring all the time unless of some quirk in their bg that was approved. Your post actually cleared up the 'never ever would' to a more realistic, might but physical pursuits probably wouldnt be the main focus of their life. I was with Intrepid there, thinking it sounded more like a npc role for a moment.

[Intrepid]

Thank you, Sanvean.  I found this very enlightening, and now I think I
am seeing what everyone has been saying about nobles.  It does seem
that the houses in Allanak are far more similar than I previously
believed, though in my defense, my primary source of information was
a doc giving a brief overview of the various houses in combination with
various ic interactions with pc nobles (who will of course expound on
the vast differences between their house and the others, generally in
terms of their own superiority).

I am curious as to what are encouraged goals for junior house members
though.  Alliances, amassing of power and wealth, building of personal
armies, risky ventures and the like are either frowned upon or are
pursued by the house as a whole, if I read correctly.

[Ktavialt]

I hope that helps explain the staff's conception of the nobility.  My apologies for rambling at such lengths.

Yeah like the other one said, no need to apoligize... good explanation.

[John]

I am curious as to what are encouraged goals for junior house members
though.  Alliances, amassing of power and wealth, building of personal
armies, risky ventures and the like are either frowned upon or are
pursued by the house as a whole, if I read correctly.

If I'm reading San's post right that's not quite what she meant. Nobles are dissuaded from doing things that will harm the House or will help the House (unless they have the say so from above). Helping and harming themselves though is another story As long as it doesn't have too much of an impact on the House, they're free to go.

[House Rising Sun]

Sanvean's much smarter than me, but I still have to disagree with her version of a zalanthan noble in general.

I would imagine that a person born into privilege is just as likely to desire even more power and wealth than he is to take what he has and laze around for the rest of his life. Me? I'd sit on my ass and play Armageddon. George Bush? He ran for president. If ambition depends at all on upbringing, why -wouldn't- the houses raise wee nobles with the desire to have more?

And with that ambition, there's always more than one way to get something, especially in a dark fantasy world such as this, where the answer more often than not leads to violence in some form or another. Some nobles may desire a position in the senate when they grow older. Some may want connections throughout the entire underworld of their particular city. Among others, that leaves the ones that desire conquest or even glory.

Because let's not kid ourselves, here. The face of zalanthas is most heavily impacted by WAR. If Allanak invades again, you bet there's something to be gained by being just behind the lines, directing your little squads and retinue. Titles like Lord Governor come to mind. Benefits from templars, or a bit of glory taken away from those lowly and unnecessary Tor come to mind. War is always, always inevitable, and there's always, always something to be gained from it, even on a personal level.

Sparring is also just another form of teaching. I don't understand why we see something wrong with a noble preparing himself for the day when he may have to lift a hand by having his personal bodyguard show him the right moves. If he depends on this man every day anyway, where's the problem?

All of that said, I'll maintain that we only need a subguild for nobles. If a new noble needs the warrior, assassin, or even ranger (he's studied geography, survival, and regional plants, ready to travel to wherever his business takes him) classes instead of more typical selections, and he manages to fully justify it, then why the hell not?

Perhaps the alternative to universally narrowing the scope of a noble's role as a character is asking trusted players to play the 'rare exception', and insist that everyone else get used to the norm first.