Stats decided during creation?

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I was thinking over some past characters recently, and how I'd think them up to do one thing, but be unable to, because it comes out statwise that they'd be able to. (I.E. a moronic barbarian with a love of polearms and what they do to heads, but after a being created, finds out that he has a strength that ruins his entire concept.

So I figure a probable solution might be to have your stats generated during character creation.

Say you die...
-Cuss out the mantis head, because you know it's laughing at you for rushing that jozhal and not seeing the gith one room to the north...
-Select create new character...
-Add name.
-Add password.
-Add gender.

These are the stats of the character to be created.
Str: Blah Agi: Blah ect ect...

Would you like to keep these stats? (y/n) N
Rerolling...
Str: Blah Agi: Blah ect ect...
Saving application. (To prevent logging out and trying again, you can always go back and change name/gender before submitting if the stats don't fit what you had in mind at first.)

That way, you have a moment to think over your stats, and assess the type of character you'd like to make.

Or perhaps another method would be to have the roll/reroll come -right- after selecting to create a new character, and then saving, that way if you log out/in and redo the character creation, the stats won't roll but will just be there from the last roll.

Though the main problem I see here would be stats affected by selected age...

But then it could always be added that certain age groups have a set percentage of modifying each stat, and when the age is selected, some message pops in saying 'checking stat/age modifers' or whatever to adjust it accordingly...

This would probably be -way- too much work in the end for the imms, and possibly not even worth the time spent, as the system now isn't really problematic at all, but I'm just bored out of my mind and figured to post the idea up for discussion.... Because sleep is for the weak!  :wink:

[wizturbo]

Couldn't work that way.  Stats are effected by the guild you choose.  I'm like, 90% positive of that.  What I'd do is this, if you REALLY need a stat for your concept to work.

This is one of the reasons I strongly feel that you should be able to order your stats appropriately during character creation, before rolling them, but I won't beat that dead horse anymore.

[Armaddict]

Couple things:  I agree, I believe stats are influenced by guild.

The other...if we ordered our stats...we couldn't really have the chance to get some of the incredible rolls we get.  I really like the randomness of it...if a guy survives at his trade despite not being the 'most agile rogue' or 'strongest warrior', you know they're good.  The ones that aren't, die out.
I really don't think stats should be generated based on what you want, because it seems like then -everyone- of a certain guild would have a high roll for that guild's primary stat.

Thus...it would get rid of some of the effect that people are playing a -real- person in Zalanthas.

[wizturbo]

I disagree.  There is such diversity in the game.

Some warriors might prefer wisdom over strength.  Or agility over strength.  Or stamina over strength.  And that applies for every guild with some possible exceptions, as magickers I believe will usually choose wisdom over everything else, but even then that isn't always the case.  I could see choosing stamina for some magickers to be more important then wisdom.  

Basically it boils down to what do you picture you character to be like, and then arranging stats to reflect this.

Twinks might abuse it, but I think for the most part it will just help good players by letting their characters have attritubes that reflect their background.

[Agent_137]

uhg. there's at least 7 other threads on this.

(Not the original poster's idea, which is interesting, but the resulting discussion)

But the issue isn't abuse so much as diversity. Leave it how it is.

If you have a SPECIAL idea in mind, SPECIAL app.

Or, if it's a simple idea, like a stupid guy with a love of polearms, just do everything normal, and if he gets a strength roll that's for shit, but a high intel roll, email the mud, explain why you want them switched. Maybe they'll do it for you.

[Xamminy]

It would take a lot of coding to do this, as currently your stats are not rolled until you leave the Hall of Kings.

Yes, the resulting discussion has happened many times.  Please go find one of those threads if you must to have the 'we should be able to choose/we shouldn't be able to choose' debate.

Couldn't work that way.  Stats are effected by the guild you choose.  I'm like, 90% positive of that.  What I'd do is this, if you REALLY need a stat for your concept to work.

Do what?

What I'd do is not make a concept dependant on a stat.  I'm a barbarian that really likes polearms...but after character creation, I'm a smart and weak barbarian instead of strong and dumb?  Huh, maybe I can philosophize on the use of polearms to seperate people in twain instead of blabber about it...and sigh wistfully that I'm unable to do it like my tribesmates.  Be flexible.

[Kill4Free]

Or, you could bribe an Imm with alcohol, and get him give you AI strength

[Gilvar]

Stats are determined by race and age, not Guild. Though I'll defer to someone who can actually look at the code to verify.

[Tamarin]

Stats are determined by race and age, not Guild. Though I'll defer to someone who can actually look at the code to verify.

It was my understanding, as per previous staff statements, that age did not affect starting stats in the least.

[Majikal]

Actually I'm pretty positive that your stats are affected by your starting a ge. I could almost swear an immortal commented that to me. I was wishing up about having a character with poor str, poor wis, poor agility and average agi, he claimed that was the reason.. I think. I could be wrong though. **shrugs**

Stats are determined by race and age, not Guild. Though I'll defer to someone who can actually look at the code to verify.

Stats are determined by race, age and guild.

[Angela Christine]

Well, you could still use your "base" stats, before they are modified.  This one time I had a non-mage with the highest mana score I've ever had.  (If you use the infobar it tells you what your mana is, even if your class can't use mana).  Man, it would have been sweet to have been a mage, especially if the guild choice slightly increased my mana.  Being a really smart pickpocket or ranger just isn't as critical.

On the other hand choosing concept and guild after knowing your stats could easily lead to more cookie-cutter characters.  The fact that I kinda wanted to be a mage after I saw my mana shows that at least I am succeptable to the siren song of buffness and perfection.  Surely I'm not the only one?


AC

[Kill4Free]

A while ago my brother spent hours making his character, planning everything out, making a really good background, and he was supposed to be a warrior type char.
He had poor str,  above avg agil, good wisom, and good endurance, and since that is almost complelely useless stats for a warrior, he rerolled them, and got below avg str, below avg agil, and good wisdom and endurance.  Making his entire plan, and background for his character completely useless, like what are you going to kill, if your hits bounce of a hawk's tough skin.
So it would be nice if you could pick one catagory, which you wouldnt do so poorly in.

[SRB]

So it would be nice if you could pick one catagory, which you wouldnt do so poorly in.

Think of this situation like poker:

You play with what you are dealt.

If you don't like it, you can fold, or tough it out and play the role.

Creating such emphasis on stats on an RPI mud is, IMO, not what we need for this community.

[Sanvean]

We talked about this the last time it came up in a thread, which was around May, I think.  Nessalin was looking at ways something like this would be implemented, and trying to figure out a good system.

[Kill4Free]

I think a good way, would be to pick one catagory, where you wouldnt get less then 'good' in, so even at worst, you wouldnt be totally useless.

[Agent_137]

Yea. . . .that would be less twinkable stat ordering . . . but I still think the best way is to not base your character concept on stats at all without a special application.

[wizturbo]

The system I would support, isn't too complicated, but would give players a bit more control over how their stats turn out, without taking away the randomness factor.

1)  At character creation, you choose priorities.  Please note this occurs BEFORE you see any rolls.

2)  Stats are generated, and ordered depending on those set priorities.  All stats are rolls equally at this point.  Using the same random number generating device, such as "dice".

3)  Stats are then "modified" based on race, guild and age.  

4)  Option for one reroll to repeat the process.

5)  Done.  Stats are compared to 'racial average' and then reported via the score command.

******************************************************
The part below is the numerical explanation of how the system proposed above could be implemented, its just a suggested way, but mathematically it could be done dozens and dozens of ways.  All numbers used in the example are completely made up to show how things could potentially be done.
******************************************************

So to go through the details, I'll generate a theoretical character to show how I'd see it working:

I'm making a 16 year old elven warrior.  The concept for his character background reflects that his attributes be ordered as follows:  Stamina, Strength, Agility, Wisdom.

Stats are then rolled , using 3d6 and the following is the result.    13, 16, 12, 9

Keep in mind the average roll would be 10.5, so this is a pretty good set of stats.

These stats are then assigned:

16 -  Stamina
13 -  Strength
12 -  Agility
9   -  Wisdom

These stats are the modified based on age.  Lets say a low age gives a bonus to agility and stamina, but a reduction in wisdom and strength.  So the stats are modified to add +1 stamina/agility, -1 wisdom/strength.

Stats after age, are now:

17 - Stamina
12 - Strength
13 - Agility
8   - Wisdom

Now race must be factored in.  Elves receive bonuses to agility and wisdom, and reductions in strength and stamina.  +3 agility, +1 wisdom, -3 strength, -1 stamina.  These are applied.

16 -  Stamina
9 -  strength
16 - agility
9  -  wisdom

And lastly, warriors receive +1 strength and +1 stamina as a reflection of their physical conditioning, leaving the final stats to be...

17 - stamina
10 - strength
16 - agility
9  - wisdom


Now what do those stats mean, how would they match up to the average member of your race?  Thats simple to solve, an average is set, and the deviation from the average is what is reflected when you look at your scores.


For instance, the average elf might have a 7 strength, 11 wisdom, 13 agility and 9 stamina.  So when comparing the character I just made to that average, the following non-number scores are given:

Strength -  "Very good"  +3 over average
Stamina -  "Absolutely Incredible" +7 over average
Wisdom -   "Poor" -2 under average
Agility    -  "Very good"  +3 over average

Very good set of stats, that goes along with some really good rolls.  But its all been adjusted based on guild, age, and race.


A bit long winded to explain, but that doesn't seem too complex to code from my limited experience in programming.

[Bestatte]

I think there's a difference between basing your PC on stats, and basing it on "viability as pertains to your chosen guild."

The most obvious example is the archer subguild. In order to use a bow as your weapon of choice, you have to have a strength stat that "fits" with the current selection of available bows. If you're just starting out and your strength is "AI" you might find yourself unable to use even the best and most expensive of available bows, because they're all just plain too weak for you to use.

If you start out with "poor" or "average" you might have to spend a good RL month looking for a Salarr agent who can get you a special order bow. So that's a good RL month of not "doing" what your character "does" just because you got a stat roll that made your character inoperable with the usual selection of stuff.

Sure, you could ride around the world on your kank looking for the right bow - but how exactly do you defend yourself if your primary class is merchant, and have piss-poor combat skills OTHER than with archery? Unless you know from previous PC playing, all the ways around danger zones and how to maneuver in the wilderness, you won't get far enough to find a bow, let alone use one.

I'd like to see something that someone suggested awhile back. I can't remember who...

That prior to the stats showing up, while you're still in the Hall of Kings, you order the placement. You will have absolutely no idea what that stats will end up being. You'll only know that of the four, "this" or "that" stat will be the highest, and "this or that" stat will be the lowest, with the other two falling in place.

If you choose to place the order, then you give up the right to reroll if you don't like how it turns out. Or you can take the crapshoot, let the game determine the order, and go for the reroll if it doesn't suite you and hope for the best.

[wizturbo]

Here's a much easier, example of a 40 year old human warrior.

Priority:  str, wis, agi, sta

Rolls of :  9, 10, 11, 12

12 roll +  (+1 guild bonus) + (+1 age bonus) = 14 strength
11 roll +  (+1 age bonus)  = 12 wisdom
10 roll +  (-1 age penalty) = 9 agility
09 roll +  (-1 age penalty) +  (+1 guild bonus) = 9 stamina

The average for all stats for humans is 10.

Stats as you'd actually see them:

Strength = Extremely Good
Agility    = Below average
Wisdom = Good
Stamina = Below average

[Agent_137]

witz, that's too precise, allowing too much control. I don't like it.

At most, you should be able to pick ONE that is your best stat, and that's it.

[wizturbo]

witz, that's too precise, allowing too much control. I don't like it.

At most, you should be able to pick ONE that is your best stat, and that's it.

Picking your highest is almost never the problem.  Its the lowest stat thats the problem.  If you want to have high agility because your character is a great archer, but get a poor stat in strength so you can't even wield a bow whats the point of having the agility?

Ordering your preferences, keep in mind i'm saying preferences and this occurs BEFORE you see what your stats are going to be, would prevent this from occuring.  Having agility, strength and then whatever else after, would reflect your character aptitude as an archer, having trained their arm to pull the bow, and having practiced a lot to improve their agility so they are accurate.

[Bestatte]

But Agent, what if you have two identical high stats? How much coding is required to accommodate that?

If you set the order for all four, then the code can accommodate duplicates. Example:

Joe opts out of the ordering and takes his chances. He gets:

Str: good
Agi: good
Wis: average
End: better than average.

Sue chooses to order her stats. It turns out she has the same values, but she's chosen her placement in advance of learning what those values are. She chooses:

Agi, Wis, Str, End.

and ends up with:

Str: better than average
Agi: good
Wis: good
End: average

Same values, different placement. And again, she will have absolutely no idea what those values will be until after her character has left the Hall of Kings, and because she has chosen to order the stats, she forfeits the reroll option.

[wizturbo]

My example is exactly what Bestatte is talking about, its just adding in some details to attempt to solve the problems that age, race and guild would have on the coded aspect.

[Agent_137]

Look, in my opinion, that's WAY too much control.

I know it would work, but it's still too much. I use to want the same thing, but now I'm happy with it as it is. You see, this way it keeps everything random. But if you can order all 4 stats, you'll get every guild with exactly what they need to be the best. I like making do what with I get, and not getting pretty much what I want.

But that's just me. I'm for the status quo on this one.