Stats decided during creation?

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I was thinking over some past characters recently, and how I'd think them up to do one thing, but be unable to, because it comes out statwise that they'd be able to. (I.E. a moronic barbarian with a love of polearms and what they do to heads, but after a being created, finds out that he has a strength that ruins his entire concept.

So I figure a probable solution might be to have your stats generated during character creation.

Say you die...
-Cuss out the mantis head, because you know it's laughing at you for rushing that jozhal and not seeing the gith one room to the north...
-Select create new character...
-Add name.
-Add password.
-Add gender.

These are the stats of the character to be created.
Str: Blah Agi: Blah ect ect...

Would you like to keep these stats? (y/n) N
Rerolling...
Str: Blah Agi: Blah ect ect...
Saving application. (To prevent logging out and trying again, you can always go back and change name/gender before submitting if the stats don't fit what you had in mind at first.)

That way, you have a moment to think over your stats, and assess the type of character you'd like to make.

Or perhaps another method would be to have the roll/reroll come -right- after selecting to create a new character, and then saving, that way if you log out/in and redo the character creation, the stats won't roll but will just be there from the last roll.

Though the main problem I see here would be stats affected by selected age...

But then it could always be added that certain age groups have a set percentage of modifying each stat, and when the age is selected, some message pops in saying 'checking stat/age modifers' or whatever to adjust it accordingly...

This would probably be -way- too much work in the end for the imms, and possibly not even worth the time spent, as the system now isn't really problematic at all, but I'm just bored out of my mind and figured to post the idea up for discussion.... Because sleep is for the weak!  :wink:

[wizturbo]

Couldn't work that way.  Stats are effected by the guild you choose.  I'm like, 90% positive of that.  What I'd do is this, if you REALLY need a stat for your concept to work.

This is one of the reasons I strongly feel that you should be able to order your stats appropriately during character creation, before rolling them, but I won't beat that dead horse anymore.

[Armaddict]

Couple things:  I agree, I believe stats are influenced by guild.

The other...if we ordered our stats...we couldn't really have the chance to get some of the incredible rolls we get.  I really like the randomness of it...if a guy survives at his trade despite not being the 'most agile rogue' or 'strongest warrior', you know they're good.  The ones that aren't, die out.
I really don't think stats should be generated based on what you want, because it seems like then -everyone- of a certain guild would have a high roll for that guild's primary stat.

Thus...it would get rid of some of the effect that people are playing a -real- person in Zalanthas.

[wizturbo]

I disagree.  There is such diversity in the game.

Some warriors might prefer wisdom over strength.  Or agility over strength.  Or stamina over strength.  And that applies for every guild with some possible exceptions, as magickers I believe will usually choose wisdom over everything else, but even then that isn't always the case.  I could see choosing stamina for some magickers to be more important then wisdom.  

Basically it boils down to what do you picture you character to be like, and then arranging stats to reflect this.

Twinks might abuse it, but I think for the most part it will just help good players by letting their characters have attritubes that reflect their background.

[Agent_137]

uhg. there's at least 7 other threads on this.

(Not the original poster's idea, which is interesting, but the resulting discussion)

But the issue isn't abuse so much as diversity. Leave it how it is.

If you have a SPECIAL idea in mind, SPECIAL app.

Or, if it's a simple idea, like a stupid guy with a love of polearms, just do everything normal, and if he gets a strength roll that's for shit, but a high intel roll, email the mud, explain why you want them switched. Maybe they'll do it for you.

[Xamminy]

It would take a lot of coding to do this, as currently your stats are not rolled until you leave the Hall of Kings.

Yes, the resulting discussion has happened many times.  Please go find one of those threads if you must to have the 'we should be able to choose/we shouldn't be able to choose' debate.

Couldn't work that way.  Stats are effected by the guild you choose.  I'm like, 90% positive of that.  What I'd do is this, if you REALLY need a stat for your concept to work.

Do what?

What I'd do is not make a concept dependant on a stat.  I'm a barbarian that really likes polearms...but after character creation, I'm a smart and weak barbarian instead of strong and dumb?  Huh, maybe I can philosophize on the use of polearms to seperate people in twain instead of blabber about it...and sigh wistfully that I'm unable to do it like my tribesmates.  Be flexible.

[Kill4Free]

Or, you could bribe an Imm with alcohol, and get him give you AI strength

[Gilvar]

Stats are determined by race and age, not Guild. Though I'll defer to someone who can actually look at the code to verify.

[Tamarin]

Stats are determined by race and age, not Guild. Though I'll defer to someone who can actually look at the code to verify.

It was my understanding, as per previous staff statements, that age did not affect starting stats in the least.

[Majikal]

Actually I'm pretty positive that your stats are affected by your starting a ge. I could almost swear an immortal commented that to me. I was wishing up about having a character with poor str, poor wis, poor agility and average agi, he claimed that was the reason.. I think. I could be wrong though. **shrugs**

Stats are determined by race and age, not Guild. Though I'll defer to someone who can actually look at the code to verify.

Stats are determined by race, age and guild.

[Angela Christine]

Well, you could still use your "base" stats, before they are modified.  This one time I had a non-mage with the highest mana score I've ever had.  (If you use the infobar it tells you what your mana is, even if your class can't use mana).  Man, it would have been sweet to have been a mage, especially if the guild choice slightly increased my mana.  Being a really smart pickpocket or ranger just isn't as critical.

On the other hand choosing concept and guild after knowing your stats could easily lead to more cookie-cutter characters.  The fact that I kinda wanted to be a mage after I saw my mana shows that at least I am succeptable to the siren song of buffness and perfection.  Surely I'm not the only one?


AC

[Kill4Free]

A while ago my brother spent hours making his character, planning everything out, making a really good background, and he was supposed to be a warrior type char.
He had poor str,  above avg agil, good wisom, and good endurance, and since that is almost complelely useless stats for a warrior, he rerolled them, and got below avg str, below avg agil, and good wisdom and endurance.  Making his entire plan, and background for his character completely useless, like what are you going to kill, if your hits bounce of a hawk's tough skin.
So it would be nice if you could pick one catagory, which you wouldnt do so poorly in.

[SRB]

So it would be nice if you could pick one catagory, which you wouldnt do so poorly in.

Think of this situation like poker:

You play with what you are dealt.

If you don't like it, you can fold, or tough it out and play the role.

Creating such emphasis on stats on an RPI mud is, IMO, not what we need for this community.

[Sanvean]

We talked about this the last time it came up in a thread, which was around May, I think.  Nessalin was looking at ways something like this would be implemented, and trying to figure out a good system.

[Kill4Free]

I think a good way, would be to pick one catagory, where you wouldnt get less then 'good' in, so even at worst, you wouldnt be totally useless.

[Agent_137]

Yea. . . .that would be less twinkable stat ordering . . . but I still think the best way is to not base your character concept on stats at all without a special application.

[wizturbo]

The system I would support, isn't too complicated, but would give players a bit more control over how their stats turn out, without taking away the randomness factor.

1)  At character creation, you choose priorities.  Please note this occurs BEFORE you see any rolls.

2)  Stats are generated, and ordered depending on those set priorities.  All stats are rolls equally at this point.  Using the same random number generating device, such as "dice".

3)  Stats are then "modified" based on race, guild and age.  

4)  Option for one reroll to repeat the process.

5)  Done.  Stats are compared to 'racial average' and then reported via the score command.

******************************************************
The part below is the numerical explanation of how the system proposed above could be implemented, its just a suggested way, but mathematically it could be done dozens and dozens of ways.  All numbers used in the example are completely made up to show how things could potentially be done.
******************************************************

So to go through the details, I'll generate a theoretical character to show how I'd see it working:

I'm making a 16 year old elven warrior.  The concept for his character background reflects that his attributes be ordered as follows:  Stamina, Strength, Agility, Wisdom.

Stats are then rolled , using 3d6 and the following is the result.    13, 16, 12, 9

Keep in mind the average roll would be 10.5, so this is a pretty good set of stats.

These stats are then assigned:

16 -  Stamina
13 -  Strength
12 -  Agility
9   -  Wisdom

These stats are the modified based on age.  Lets say a low age gives a bonus to agility and stamina, but a reduction in wisdom and strength.  So the stats are modified to add +1 stamina/agility, -1 wisdom/strength.

Stats after age, are now:

17 - Stamina
12 - Strength
13 - Agility
8   - Wisdom

Now race must be factored in.  Elves receive bonuses to agility and wisdom, and reductions in strength and stamina.  +3 agility, +1 wisdom, -3 strength, -1 stamina.  These are applied.

16 -  Stamina
9 -  strength
16 - agility
9  -  wisdom

And lastly, warriors receive +1 strength and +1 stamina as a reflection of their physical conditioning, leaving the final stats to be...

17 - stamina
10 - strength
16 - agility
9  - wisdom


Now what do those stats mean, how would they match up to the average member of your race?  Thats simple to solve, an average is set, and the deviation from the average is what is reflected when you look at your scores.


For instance, the average elf might have a 7 strength, 11 wisdom, 13 agility and 9 stamina.  So when comparing the character I just made to that average, the following non-number scores are given:

Strength -  "Very good"  +3 over average
Stamina -  "Absolutely Incredible" +7 over average
Wisdom -   "Poor" -2 under average
Agility    -  "Very good"  +3 over average

Very good set of stats, that goes along with some really good rolls.  But its all been adjusted based on guild, age, and race.


A bit long winded to explain, but that doesn't seem too complex to code from my limited experience in programming.

[Bestatte]

I think there's a difference between basing your PC on stats, and basing it on "viability as pertains to your chosen guild."

The most obvious example is the archer subguild. In order to use a bow as your weapon of choice, you have to have a strength stat that "fits" with the current selection of available bows. If you're just starting out and your strength is "AI" you might find yourself unable to use even the best and most expensive of available bows, because they're all just plain too weak for you to use.

If you start out with "poor" or "average" you might have to spend a good RL month looking for a Salarr agent who can get you a special order bow. So that's a good RL month of not "doing" what your character "does" just because you got a stat roll that made your character inoperable with the usual selection of stuff.

Sure, you could ride around the world on your kank looking for the right bow - but how exactly do you defend yourself if your primary class is merchant, and have piss-poor combat skills OTHER than with archery? Unless you know from previous PC playing, all the ways around danger zones and how to maneuver in the wilderness, you won't get far enough to find a bow, let alone use one.

I'd like to see something that someone suggested awhile back. I can't remember who...

That prior to the stats showing up, while you're still in the Hall of Kings, you order the placement. You will have absolutely no idea what that stats will end up being. You'll only know that of the four, "this" or "that" stat will be the highest, and "this or that" stat will be the lowest, with the other two falling in place.

If you choose to place the order, then you give up the right to reroll if you don't like how it turns out. Or you can take the crapshoot, let the game determine the order, and go for the reroll if it doesn't suite you and hope for the best.

[wizturbo]

Here's a much easier, example of a 40 year old human warrior.

Priority:  str, wis, agi, sta

Rolls of :  9, 10, 11, 12

12 roll +  (+1 guild bonus) + (+1 age bonus) = 14 strength
11 roll +  (+1 age bonus)  = 12 wisdom
10 roll +  (-1 age penalty) = 9 agility
09 roll +  (-1 age penalty) +  (+1 guild bonus) = 9 stamina

The average for all stats for humans is 10.

Stats as you'd actually see them:

Strength = Extremely Good
Agility    = Below average
Wisdom = Good
Stamina = Below average

[Agent_137]

witz, that's too precise, allowing too much control. I don't like it.

At most, you should be able to pick ONE that is your best stat, and that's it.

[wizturbo]

witz, that's too precise, allowing too much control. I don't like it.

At most, you should be able to pick ONE that is your best stat, and that's it.

Picking your highest is almost never the problem.  Its the lowest stat thats the problem.  If you want to have high agility because your character is a great archer, but get a poor stat in strength so you can't even wield a bow whats the point of having the agility?

Ordering your preferences, keep in mind i'm saying preferences and this occurs BEFORE you see what your stats are going to be, would prevent this from occuring.  Having agility, strength and then whatever else after, would reflect your character aptitude as an archer, having trained their arm to pull the bow, and having practiced a lot to improve their agility so they are accurate.

[Bestatte]

But Agent, what if you have two identical high stats? How much coding is required to accommodate that?

If you set the order for all four, then the code can accommodate duplicates. Example:

Joe opts out of the ordering and takes his chances. He gets:

Str: good
Agi: good
Wis: average
End: better than average.

Sue chooses to order her stats. It turns out she has the same values, but she's chosen her placement in advance of learning what those values are. She chooses:

Agi, Wis, Str, End.

and ends up with:

Str: better than average
Agi: good
Wis: good
End: average

Same values, different placement. And again, she will have absolutely no idea what those values will be until after her character has left the Hall of Kings, and because she has chosen to order the stats, she forfeits the reroll option.

[wizturbo]

My example is exactly what Bestatte is talking about, its just adding in some details to attempt to solve the problems that age, race and guild would have on the coded aspect.

[Agent_137]

Look, in my opinion, that's WAY too much control.

I know it would work, but it's still too much. I use to want the same thing, but now I'm happy with it as it is. You see, this way it keeps everything random. But if you can order all 4 stats, you'll get every guild with exactly what they need to be the best. I like making do what with I get, and not getting pretty much what I want.

But that's just me. I'm for the status quo on this one.

[da mitey warrior]

A far simpler solution: Subguilds which boost your stats.

So if you absolutely have to have decent strength you can pick the 'strongman' subguild and get +2 strength.  You still have to give up the potential for subguild skills, but you at least get a stat 2 over the racial minimum.

[wizturbo]

Look, in my opinion, that's WAY too much control.

I know it would work, but it's still too much. I use to want the same thing, but now I'm happy with it as it is. You see, this way it keeps everything random. But if you can order all 4 stats, you'll get every guild with exactly what they need to be the best. I like making do what with I get, and not getting pretty much what I want.

But that's just me. I'm for the status quo on this one.

I strongly disagree that you'd have everyone doing what you need to be the best.  What is the "best"?

If you have a pickpocket with agility as their highest, what makes them better then a pickpocket with wisdom as their highest?  The one with wisdom learns faster, the one with agility is more nimble.  Which of those two is superior?  I sure can't tell you.  A pickpocket with strength as their max would hit harder in combat, or carry more loot with them.  A pickpocket with more stamina could take more of a beating, survive poison better, and get tired/recover faster.  All of these things seem equally good to me.

Lets take a warrior.  Agility means your faster.  Strength means you hit harder.  Wisdom means you learn faster.  Stamina means your 'tougher'.  You tell me which one is superior, I sure can't decide.  Sure, if you want to be the best "fast fighter" agility makes sense for you.  But that doesn't mean for a second that a fast fighter is going to beat a really strong fighter.  Or a really smart fighter.  Or a really tough one that can just take a beating and keep on coming.

This works for every class I can think of with some exceptions.

Merchants, magickers/psionicists would probably get more use out of wisdom then any other stat.  But, still, even beyond that there is variation.  People actually DO roleplay, and might make their magicker have wisdom lower down the priority list because its just how their character is.  They were a big dumb gladiator before Krath granted them an inner fire.  Or they were an agile thief until their minds were opened to the great psionic ether of the way!  I really don't think having blind control over stats arrangement would allow people to be 'twinkish'.  It still depends on the luck of the draw with how well you roll for stats.

[wizturbo]

A far simpler solution: Subguilds which boost your stats.

So if you absolutely have to have decent strength you can pick the 'strongman' subguild and get +2 strength.  You still have to give up the potential for subguild skills, but you at least get a stat 2 over the racial minimum.

A good thought, but wouldn't work under current system.  Your stats are generated long after you've chosen a subguild.  And you wouldn't know if you need that 'strongman' training so you can use a longbow until after its too late.

[Angela Christine]

Simplest solution?  10 rerolls!  One of them is bound to be ok.



AC

[Krath]

No offense to anyone on this and do not take it as a flame, but I absolutely hate this idea.
Why should we be able to determine our stats. Why? So we can have that "SWEET" character
with stats. It is all OOC. Later on, stats do not matter anyway, so why do you all care soo
much a bout them. YOu get your one reroll, that should be enough.  Why do you all think
Stats are soo great and important anyways? Can someone explain that to me? You make
it seem like it is the end to all means. Gah, I am just going to stop before this
starts to a flame.
I am just very much so against this idea.

[Kill4Free]

I still like my idea, it is twink proof, simple, and wont interfere with anything

Pick one stat to not have lower then good in, and you are set.

[flurry]

After one of the Imms posted recently that your main guild is already factored into stats, I've kind of soured a little on the idea of ordering stats.  

I think if your concept is ruined by your roll and reroll, and it's not workable at all, it seems reasonable to write to the mud at that point.   I imagine that would be a very rare situation.

[Angela Christine]

Yeah, it isn't necessary.  You can already influence your stats to some degree with your age, size, race and guild.

If you want a big, beefy warrior, then don't make him a tiny teenager or an elven senior citizen.  A 25 year old human warrior in the upper half of the available height and weight range is very unlikly to roll poor strength, much less twice -- that isn't to say he'll have good or excellent strength, but it will proably be at least average.  Make him a dwarf instead and then even if his strength says it is below average for his race, it is probably still pretty good because dwarves are a strong race.

Racial statting has it's limitations because you may not want to RP the other racial traits.  It is also a little odd because all the available races run on a single continum with Strength and endurence on one end, and agility and wisdom on the other end.

Strength & Endurance -------HG---------D-------H-----HE-----E------------ Wisdom & Agility

Why no races that are prone to being Strong and agile, but typically have poor health and wisdom?  Or Wise and Strong, but unhealthy and clumsy?  I don't know, I suppose that is a topic for another thread.



Still, rerolls are cool and character creation is OOC, so REROLLS FOR EVERYONE!


AC

[Agent_137]

I'd rather see more rerolls (not 10) than your idea, witz. I know it's sound logically, and I know what it would do. I used to be a supporter of that idea. But I'm not anymore. I like diversity. FORCED diversity.

Saluti,
Rob

[Kill4Free]

Yeah diversity is cool, I dont mind having bad stats, but I do mind having a bad stat in the one stat that you need it high the most.

[Agent_137]

Yeah diversity is cool, I dont mind having bad stats, but I do mind having a bad stat in the one stat that you need it high the most.

Yea, that sucks, and I've been there. Once I had a guy who's sdesc said he was a pretty big dude. Ended up with below average strength.


Current and viable Solutions:
Don't base a character concept on stats.
Use the reroll feature.
Special app a character that needs a certain stat.
Appeal to the mud account.

[wizturbo]

No offense to anyone on this and do not take it as a flame, but I absolutely hate this idea.
Why should we be able to determine our stats. Why? So we can have that "SWEET" character
with stats. It is all OOC. Later on, stats do not matter anyway, so why do you all care soo
much a bout them. YOu get your one reroll, that should be enough.  Why do you all think
Stats are soo great and important anyways? Can someone explain that to me? You make
it seem like it is the end to all means. Gah, I am just going to stop before this
starts to a flame.
I am just very much so against this idea.

They aren't the end all or be all.  In fact, they're pretty damn unimportant from a roleplaying perspective.  But codedly they are significant in they limit what you can and cannot do.  Archery is a prime example.  If your character is an archer, yet cannot use any bows because they are too weak...that concept is ruined.  If your trying to make a soldier, who can't support the weight of the standard uniform, your going to have difficulty with the role.  If your a scholarly linguist, but cannot manage to learn another language for the life of you, because your wisdom is so poor, your concept is hindered.  

The list goes on.

[Bestatte]

And don't forget some people pick skills in their SUBguild to support their PRIMARY character concept.

If their subguild requires "decent" (meaning - anything better than average) agility, and their primary guild automatically sets their wisdom high and they end up with average agility as a result, they can just toss the idea of being primarily a (insert subguild name here). So much for NOT setting your background around stats.

I usually set my background and skillsets together. They're one in the same. She does "this" for a living BECAUSE her background says she does it. She turned to a life of crime (meaning - the assassin/thief/pickpocket/whatever guild/subguild) because her background supported this.

If the primary crux of your character background revolves around the skillsets offered to us when we create our characters, and it turns out that our stats don't support USEABILITY of that skillset..then what's the point of having the skillset at all? If there exists no bow in the entire known world that I am capable of using, then picking "archer" to support my trading business is gonna be useless.

If my character is a warrior (as in wiz's example) and his daddy was a guard with a noble house and my character plans on following in his footsteps, and he can't even wear the freaking uniform - then so much for THAT idea.

[Agent_137]

No, bestatte, at that point, I would email the mud, and give them your reasoning, and ask to swap some stats around.

If you didn't base your concept primarily on stats, and are good and honest, have non negative account notes, i'm sure the immortals would be willing to adjust some things so you can play your character concept. Honestly, extreme examples are not viable examples and should not be used, especially when there's a -solution- to those examples.

[SRB]

I still like my idea, it is twink proof, simple, and wont interfere with anything

Yeah. It's 'twink proof'.  :wink:

[jhunter]

Pick one stat to not have lower then good in, and you are set.

Ummm no...because you may not even get a "good" stat. This would make it 100% that you would get a "good" stat.

I've stated before and I'm going to do it again.  I'm also 100% against stat ordering of any kind.

Any stat manipulation whatsoever I think promotes a twinkish way of going about things. Too much focus on statistical things rather than on rp.

As Wiz' said, if your concept is entirely dependant on stats (which IMO, it shouldn't be) and it's just completely unplayable you can mail the mud and if the imms deem you worth of not abusing it, then they will take care of it.



To the imms:
I hope and pray that if anything like this is added in that you will keep in mind there are those of us that -don't- want this option and would like the option to have our stats determined randomly kept in the game.

Personally I feel that there should be a cap or something imposed on those that use the ordering option and the reroll taken away.

For those going randomly, just as it is...no cap and one reroll.

[Angela Christine]

An average person should have "average" in all four stats.  Maybe let people choose "average" instead of random stats?  No poor stats that way, but also no way to unbalance the game.  It wouldn't even need a completely new syntax, it could be a reroll option.  Instead of reroll self you could "reroll self average" or "reroll average".  Of course the average stats would be before the modifiers for age, size, and guild were applied, so it might be possible to end up with some stats slightly above or below your racial average, but they would still be average for someone of your age, size, guild and race.


AC

[Angela Christine]

A similar idea would be to allow people to use their single reroll on just one stat, instead of the whole kaboodle.  That way you have a chance of getting rid of the "bad" stat without risking making everything much worse.  Poor strength probably won't be rerolled into AI strength, because you probably had some modifiers to make it that bad in the first place, but this gives you the chance to try for below average or average strength without screwing over your character even worse than they are now.


reroll self = reroll all four stats randomly
reroll average = change all four stats to "average" then apply modifiers
reroll strength = randomly reroll strength, leaving the other three the same
reroll endurance = randomly reroll endurance, leaving the other three the same
reroll agility = randomly reroll agility, leaving the other three the same
reroll wisdom = randomly reroll wisdom, leaving the other three the same

You could only use one option, so if your strength and wisdom were both poor, you could reroll all four together or just one of them, but not both of the poor stats.  So you couldn't get massive stat inflation this way, and there would still be the chance of making your "bad" stat worse, but at least EVERYTHING wouldn't get worse -- it's really a downer when that happens.



OR . . . 10 rerolls for everyone!



AC