Allanak vs. Tuluk [Let's get it on!]

[Vox]

It seems as though the world is once again moving to the lazy epicenter of relative peace. The machines of war within the mighty citystates have long since quieted, allowing Northerners and Southerns to travel and trade without fear of overt harassment.

There is always the exception, of course, but I think you will all agree that this point in Zalanthan history is a peaceful one. (Albeit in the wake of the Lord of Storms, waves of Mantis, Kryl and psionic cataclysms )

Primarily my concern lies with the dissolution of tangible conflict between the two citystates... I don't like it, so I propose discussion on the following topics:

I. A seperation of currency. Nenyuk should commision coinage specific to the two citystates, in the North wooden coins baring a carven image of Muk Utep on one-side and the Ivory Pyramid on the other. In Allanak, obsidian coinage with Tektolnes' image on one-side and his tower on the other.

II. Northern and Southern specific gear. If you point to Tuluk or Allanak in the hall of kings your character will be flagged with that place as it's home-town. I propose flagging various items with !TULUK and !ALLANAK so that if a northern comes to the Nakki bazaar and types list they will not have access to said items. (An arguement will be raised about how a merchant can tell where someone is from and my retort is that a Merchant's skill at 'sizing' up a customer is second to none, combine that with the fact that bartering without speaking is nigh impossible in a society that doesn't read)

III. Currently there is a water-tax in Allanak, I'd like to see more such Tariff's inacted. Specifically on Tuluki's entering Allanak and Nakki's entering Tuluk. Stating one's business and where they are from should be mandatory at the gates. This could be handled either as an automatic check like the water tax or a scripted prompt where a Gateguard asks where you're from and you can tell the truth or attempt to lie. Whether they believe your lie could be based on the haggle skill or something. Tuluki and Allanaki tariffs would impede the easy travel between the two citystates and on one level help make the world feel a little larger, driving a further division between the North and South.

IV. Lastly, I think we should start paying more attention to the character's we're creating and where we're having them hail from. If we do more to differentiate appearance by geographical location we can do a lot to aid Northern and Southern bigotry. Southerners clearly should be predominatly dark-skinned and dark-haired and Northerners light-skinned and light-haired(not blonde but more sandy-brown and red). There will always be mutations of course but they shouldn't be the norm... This last topic is really more of a minor detail that if we as the playerbased observed more rigorously could add more to the world. It's not the most important item, just food for thought.

I leave this open to the playerbase... What say you all?

-Vox

[wizturbo]

Disagree with all 4 ideas, though at first I was tempted to see seperate currency, I think now it'd be more hassle then the effect is worth.

[Dakkon Black]

Conflict, more = good.

I agree on all four points.

[Agent_137]

two different currencies would not make any sense for realism OR playability.
(realism: kills trade, everyone needs trade.)
(Playability: pain in the fucking ass.)

So:
NO. NO. Krath NO.

Everything else, yea, that'd be neat.

Of course, 1-3 are all very dependent on how much the various governments know about good economics. They all HURT trade.

So if you've got govts that are isolationist and protectionist, because they don't know better, then yea, i could see them happening.

But i can't imagine the merchants would be happy about these at all.

[Ktavialt]

Right off the bat, I gotta say that I love heightened conflict, and I
understand your want for these sorts of changes, but I really don't think
that's exactly the intended environment. Personally, I think, like the USA
and Iraq, the wars are really between the governments of both cities, not
the common people. Another thing - we can kick the crap outta Iraq, Tuluk
and Allanak are a more even match, so outward fighting doesn't usually
happen, it's more like the USA/Russia Cold War situation.

What has happened between Allanak and Tuluk which causes tension
between the commoners? I can think of only one anywhere in recent...
- Allanak pulled a bitch-move and occupied Tuluk while they were hurting.
Also occupied Luirs. Allanaki soldiers eventually were overthrown by the
Rebellion. Think that's enough to cause a hatred? No. Look at all the old
Allied forces and Axis forces of World War II getting along these days,
Germany and Japan are like our better trading partners. Muk and Tek
sure aren't on as good terms as Bush v. Schroeder and whoever Japan's
Prime Minister is, but its really a government thing. As a southerner or
northerner I never went out and said "God I hope I don't see a 'nakki
or Tuluki, they might kill me!" No... usually its desert elves and magickers
that cause someone to worry. Why? Because 'nakki and Tuluki PC's don't
really fight with one another. And why's that? If you got enough money to
get across the known world, you've got a stable job of sorts, being a
trader, or working for one of the main merchant houses. To reiterate my
main point, 'Commoners have no event(s)-inspired reason to actually
hate one another.' On top of that, commoners already have others to
hate: elves, half-elves and magickers. They already got a place to vent.
Plus, and this has happened with more than one PC, what happens when
an independent 'nakki PC goes to Tuluk? He stays there, cause its better
for independents.

So do Templars and militia from each side hate each other? Yeah. Do
they go to the opposing city's land and f*ck with them? Hell no, that's
suicide. Wait for big daddy Tek or Muk, or at least other Templars, to back
yo ass up. Not only that, what's killing a -commoner- of the other side
really going to do? So what do they do to hurt each other? Anything?
Yeah, but I guara-damn- tee they're attacking the militia or the noble
house's interests and not the commoners interest, and most often its by
discrete means that aren't very widely seen.

I'm not saying this conflict isn't a good thing, but I don't think thats a
realistic interpretation of the outlook, supported by actual events, that
each city has with one another. I've had characters that were involved
in pro/anti Tuluki/Nakki groups, and this is what I've seen. My main
points: "Commoners have no real past event reason to hate each other."
"Templars/Militia of either side don't harm opposing city commoners."

Naturally, if a southern militia/noble/templar went to the North (or even
Luir's), he would be killed. Likewise, if a northern militia/noble/templar
went to the South, he would be killed. But, that's not what we're talking
about here.

Now to answer your ideas directly:
1) Currency: Yeah, doesn't make sense that Tuluk uses the 'sid currency
since Allanak has pretty much dominion over 'sid. However, for playability
reasons and difficulty in a currency change, perhaps this isn't the top thing
on the list, but possibly good.

2) North/South Specific Gear: So the idea here is a 'naki merchant would
-not- sell certain things to a northerner, and vice versa. Neat idea, but I
don't think thats how merchants would act. Independent merchants
generally aren't too rich, else they'd be a noble house, so they don't want
to lose customers and therefore money. What about Houses? Well, Salarr,
the big weapon/armor dealer, works in both cities, so it has no reason to
discriminate. Neither does Kadius, the wood/fineries dealer. You really
don't see southerners go north to buy Winrothol slaves or Tenneshi water,
the two houses specifically north only, so even if they wanted to
discriminate, how would they? Same goes with Borsail slaves or Tor
Warriors in the south. The other houses don't really seem to provide much
service to commoners, its simply Kadius, Salarr and independent
merchants which service the PC base, none of which have a reason to
discriminate.

3) Tariffs: Good idea. When I made my recent character after a long
absence from this game, and saw that, my character was like "Ahh f*ck."
but I was like "Awesome." Tariffs, however, could stifle trade. Who comes
up with Tariffs? Well, in the south, it's the main noble houses that vote on
it, and they're not looking to stifle trade too much. However, about tariffs
due to someone being a northerner or a southerner: Not so much.
I'd like to see the PC militia have the duty to man the gates and ask these
questions. NPC militia and an automated script bugs me. What happens if
they think you're lying? Do you get thrown in jail, pay the tax, or an
additional "lying" tax? Would a skill have to be introduced to suppress a
player's accent? If its based on haggle, can only merchants do it? Will it
take into account a southern Byn runner's militia dustcloak? Would be a
neat thing to discuss in a new post specifically for that to see if its
reasonable, but I don't think it would be unless a PC militia does it.

4) Players re: tans/light/dark hair: Yeah, I can see that - in the south
everybody (Except the nobility) should have a very dark complexion, but
people in the north can have dark complexions too. There should be some
exceptions but, ah well, maybe people should take this more heavily into
consideration.

I bet, even if all of the above items were implemented, then you still
wouldn't get the desired level of 'nakki/Tuluki hatred anyways. Think about
it, what would really change?

Anyways, gonna post my suggestions as I know where you're trying to
get at, but I need to take a breather.

Edit: Added more.

[Vox]

The essence of this thread is indeed to discuss conflict and specifically the conflict between Allanak and Tuluk(or lack thereof).

The four points I posted are simply ideas, either you'll like them or you won't. Personally, I think they'd be neat additions and add to the atmosphere... Against trade you say? Awesome, force people to circumvent and develop new trade routes, make Allanaki's and Tuluki's meet in Luir's to actually do business with each other because they know they won't be treated fairly in the other's city. Different currency? Awesome, you think you're rich up in Tuluk... good for you, you ain't got shit in 'Nak. Think you're rich in 'Nak? Try to spend your Tektolnes' embossed coinage up North. Again, this creates a neat dynamic and makes people actually think of 'investing' in a certain area of the world. If nothing else, I'd like to see Nenyuk only keep your money in your hometown... If you want to travel to Tuluk you should have to travel WITH YOUR MONEY. Buy protection and actually fear being raided. As it stands currently you can travel up north with NOTHING and happily visit Nenyuk for your thousands of gleaming coins. Give the Raiders something to raid and the travellers something to fear. Tariffs are bad for trade? Tariffs are a part of world economics.... Elves, half-elves and magickers should be the universal whipping boys? How boring. I say, let's spice it up.

Anyway, if you aren't keen on the initial ideas, that's cool... Let's hear your opinions on conflict between the citystates. I'm a firm believer that we need some stark Northern and Southern hatred, keep things tense and make Luir's the neutral ground. If it's generally not felt that there is enough reason for continued North/South conflict then by Krath let's make some.

Ktavialt mentioned a Cold War analogy, I think this is erroneous. If it were truly a Cold War thing than both sides would be building up arms and forces with the belief that there would be another major conflict. There wouldn't be overt fighting, but there would a clear enemy. For the US it was the banner of communism, for the USSR it was the banner of democracy. Both sides rallied against the other and spent billions in their preparation. Allanak and Tuluk currently exist in a (seemingly) political grey-area. If there was a 'cold war' between our citystates we'd see major tariffs and trade injunctions, we'd see people speaking on the streets in fear of the next major war and urging people to 'be prepared'. I'd prefer a Cold War to the huge question mark on global relations.

Anyway, if you don't think conflict is the key to more intense and immersive global roleplay than what do you think is? And if you do but disagree with the points I've brought up, what are your suggestions for obtaining more of the glorious conflict that keeps the pulse of our drama beating strong?

[My 2 sids]

Actually, remember almost thirty years passed between the American Revolution and the war of 1812.  Why do I bring this up?  One, I want everyone to check this out http://www.historychannel.com/1812/ Two, it takes time to build up armies and supplies for wars.  I hate to say this, but my guess is "there is more going on here than you realize" and that when the time is right, strikes will begin again.

Another point I'd like to show is that your issues are actually ICly driven.  The price for living in a world economy is that the world now has great influence in your own culture. Look at China.  For a while, they simply closed down foreign trade in an attempt to keep their culture pure.

[sarahjc]

Vox!

Ok.. So..

I don't like the currency thing, for all the reasons stated above.. Not that it isn't an awesome idea.. but our player base is just too small. Perhaps if we had 200 people on line at any given time.. But not the way it is now.. that is just too damaging to trade.

The gear.. again see answer one.. player base just is not big enough.. would kill trade. But currently and thanks to the Fashionistas.. there are two very different styles and feels to Tuluk and Allanak..  and there are arms as well that seem a bit out of place from north to south. I had an old PC that loved Southern Fashions even though she was northern.. When I would go to the south, the southerners would comment on how well dressed she was, and she would mostly get turned up noises in the north. In the north you see a lot more hide & leather in arms, and there are certain kinds of plate you can only get in the north. Also as we all know looser and more revealing clothing.  South, a lot more shell arms, obsidian is commonly used in everything.. also  tight, conservative clothing.. so there is a difference. At least that is how I see it..

On taxes, Yes! And Yes! This is an awesome idea.. and a great way to build tension.

On Character creation, again, I have to say no.. I just don't see the cities being far enough apart to warrant such major differences. I also think it makes it a bit harder when you put constraints on what people's PC's can look like.


Edited to add:

One thing I would like to see stopped is inter-city banking..  people should not be able to pull sid out of the bank from one city to the next.. If your sid is in the bank up north.. that is where it should stay..  I agree with Vox on that, people should have to travel "heavy" if they need to travel for a long time. The technology just should not be there that the Bank can easily look up your balance from north to south.. I mean, It's not an ATM  .. there is the way.. but..those bankers must have some minds if they can constantly be contacted to check out balances all day..

[My 2 sids]

One other thing to keep in mind.  The helpfiles on fighting gear and clothing already try to point out key differences in the apperence of people from Tuluk and 'Nak, if players would remember them.   :wink:

Currently we are also trying to use furniture and clothing to set trends different as well, so you may wish to continue to contribute to these discussions.  

[Zore]

Nenyuk should commision coinage specific to the two citystates, in the North wooden coins baring a carven image of Muk Utep on one-side and the Ivory Pyramid on the other.

There's a reason the two cities have the same currency. It's called playability.

III. Currently there is a water-tax in Allanak, I'd like to see more such Tariff's inacted. Specifically on Tuluki's entering Allanak and Nakki's entering Tuluk.

Sure, getting your coins ripped off by a script must have more impact than just dehydrating newbies.

Tuluki and Allanaki tariffs would impede the easy travel between the two citystates and on one level help make the world feel a little larger, driving a further division between the North and South.

Sure, let's isolate the isolated playerbase halves even more. Best way to increase conflict must be to keep the two parts as separate as possible.

I leave this open to the playerbase... What say you all?

You want more conflict? RP conflict.

[sarahjc]

Nenyuk should commision coinage specific to the two citystates, in the North wooden coins baring a carven image of Muk Utep on one-side and the Ivory Pyramid on the other.

There's a reason the two cities have the same currency. It's called playability.

III. Currently there is a water-tax in Allanak, I'd like to see more such Tariff's inacted. Specifically on Tuluki's entering Allanak and Nakki's entering Tuluk.

Sure, getting your coins ripped off by a script must have more impact than just dehydrating newbies.

Tuluki and Allanaki tariffs would impede the easy travel between the two citystates and on one level help make the world feel a little larger, driving a further division between the North and South.

Sure, let's isolate the isolated playerbase halves even more. Best way to increase conflict must be to keep the two parts as separate as possible.

I leave this open to the playerbase... What say you all?

You want more conflict? RP conflict.

Zore, really is there any reason that you need to flame the crap out of this post??  You've stated nothing that has not already been said but have mangaed to once again do it with a crappy attidude.

Thanks for the witty shut downs but perhaps you could go into your opinions with a bit more of a polite tone.

Sorry, but Nah.. I'm not sorry.. Imm's Delete me if you must..

[Krath]

I agree with Mistress JC!

[Vox]

Ah, the embittered tones of a European...

Zore, you are more than welcome to your dissenting opinion and the expression thereof, I don't see your post as a flame... Though sadly, I also don't see your Post as entirely helpful to the discussion because your responses are tainted with sarcasm. Though in two respects you are absolutely correct, "If you want conflict, RP conflict." and "... best way to increase conflict must be to keep the two parts as seperate as possible."

Of course you wax sardonic in your response but you accidently reveal a truth. The greatest way to create conflict is to keep two parties as different and seperated as possible. Why you say? I'm glad you've asked... The more 'alien' and 'foreign' these two citystates become the better. An Allanaki should feel as though they are stepping into a different country when they step through the Scaien gates... They should feel out of their element surrounded by trees and wooden houses. They should feel somewhat isolated because their money is worthless, forcing to find someone would exchange their Allanaki coinage for Tuluki money... Moving to a citystate should involve more than simply taking the extremely SHORT trip up the North road.

They added accents for a purpose... To aid in our RP, to help us identify with our location and ultimately to draw clearer lines between Northerners and Southerners. The points I list are simply continuing in that vain. I want to see brighter shades of red and white... or jade and black... Vibrant patriotism from the citizens... Whether it be the blind fanatacism of an oppressed Allanaki... or the bleeding-heart of a tree-hugging Tuluki.

Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice what Zore would term 'playability' for more intense RP situations. The best way to make the world feel larger is to make Tuluki's and Allanaki's think twice before heading across it to visit the citystates. I'd rather hear the raucous sounds of 'Tastes Great!' erupting from the south and 'Less Filling!' from the north... rather than some weak, effeminate voice crackling with a 'Hey, it's beer... can't you both be right?' No, they can't and the stubborn battles for a 'Way of life' should wage on eternally.

Are the points I listed perfect ideas? No(almost though ), but at least their ideas. Perhaps the playerbase is too small for a few of these changes to be truly benefitial, but we're a growing community.  The real question is if the players and staff want more overt conflict and more clearly defined boundaries or not.

Once again the key to this thread... RPing conflict between Allanaki's and Tuluki's. If we want it, we have to RP it... So let's get to it  

[mansa]

The idea of two different types of coinage was brought up at the Meeting of players and staff in Atlanta, and I recall that Sanvean said, 'Nessalin has looked into it, and it would cause more problems than thought out.  
Would there be inflation?  
Would an Allanaki coin 'cost' the same as a Tuluki coin?  
If the Tuluk coin is made out of wood and the Allanak coin made out of Obsidian, wouldn't the coins themselves -cost- more in the opposite city by simply selling the coin itself for its raw good value?
Would we have to go to every NPC seller in the game and reset its values to contain two different types of currency and give two different values for each?'

Yeah.  I think that's what she said.  She seemed against it, simply because of all the work that is involved with the project.  I'd assume it would take about 7 months of RL work to complete, if that, if all the people helped out constantly.

[Zore]

Zore, really is there any reason that you need to flame the crap out of this post??

I did not flame.  If I had wanted to flame, I would have started with "If you really are stupid enough...".

You've stated nothing that has not already been said - -

Incorrect. I stated my opinion, as requested by the thread starter. Nobody had done that before in this thread.

but have mangaed to once again do it with a crappy attidude.

Crappy attitude once again? With what attitude exactly should I regard ideas that are, in my opinion, very devastating to the MUD?

And let me point out that you were the first one who managed to write a post that had nothing to do with the actual issue.

Congratulations.

[Zore]

Ah, the embittered tones of a European...

I'm glad the reasons why Europeans are in this context embittered are widely known.

The more 'alien' and 'foreign' these two citystates become the better. An Allanaki should feel as though they are stepping into a different country when they step through the Scaien gates...

I totally agree with you there.

Now I just need to find out how scripted tolls and coinage hassle are going to help my PC feel more alien.

Distancing Tuluk from Allanak reduces travel. It reduces the number of foreigners visiting/staying. Therefore it reduces conflict. Conflict does not have to be some vague feeling supposedly imposed by new code, it can be most enjoyable with hostile interaction at a local tavern, stuff like that.

And for that we need no code whatsoever. Except maybe the brawl code.

[Vox]

Distancing Tuluk from Allanak reduces travel. It reduces the number of foreigners visiting/staying. Therefore it reduces conflict. Conflict does not have to be some vague feeling supposedly imposed by new code, it can be most enjoyable with hostile interaction at a local tavern, stuff like that.

I don't totally disagree with you here, but in my opinion the 'code' suggestions are supplimental to the essence of the conflict issue. We can certainly fan the flames without adding anything to the code(except the brawl code which I also agree needs to be retooled and reinstated), but ultimately a greater sense of 'citystate self' is required. Personally I don't see a reduction in idle travel between the two city states as inherently bad, I'd much rather see Luir's receive more traffic than it does. To have Luir's be the meeting place and trading Outpost of Allanaki's and Tuluki's, but leave the citystates to a feeling of relative isolationism, socially and economically. I'd also like to see the merchant Houses have to make tougher decisions about how and where they do business.

Because we're not a Coke vs. Pepsi, McDonalds vs. Burger King mercantile system we have to make certain adjustments... Salarr is the major weaponseller in both citystates... Kadius sells all the clothing... No true competition. Now that there are Northern Noblility mirroring the Noble structure of Allanak... Perhaps we could have some schisms in the Merchant Houses.

It wouldn't disperse the playerbase as there is already a Northern Salarr and a Southern Salarr... What if one them simply became something else.. another merchant house overtakes a branch of Salarr and becomes competitive. Offering wares of equal quality but far different look. Give Salarr something to worry about. Mirror this with Kadius... The merchant houses with Arch enemies....

House Rralas(comical representation of whatever House overtakes Salarr's northern branch) in the north with Kadius. Leaving Salarr and Suidak(the clothing House that overtakes Kadius' southern branch) in the south. Bam, no longer are the citystates unified by the singular Merchant houses. Trading and inter-citystate travel takes on an entirely new meaning. No longer are Salarri wagons safely travelling to their swank Salarri estate up north, they're entering what could be dangerous territory as they attempt to develop a true trade route... where they'd actually TRADE goods and materials. (of course this wouldn't happen overnight but I'd like to see something happen... maybe even within the merchant house, an uppity junior merchant gets a loyal following of house guards and just throws a minor Coup)

Anyway, I'm getting carried away. I hope you can see where I'm trying to go, even if you don't agree. Never hurts to be a little crazy and throw some 'outside the box' thinking at the situation.  :shock:

/rant.

[Twilight]

Conflict between the two city states happens fairly rarely.  I have my own ideas about why this occurs.  Most city vs city conflict has happened between these two (Steinal and Luirs being essentially the other two).  Lets recap the direct clashes between the two city states:

628
The armies of the city-states of Allanak and Tuluk clash at Wyntek Harzen, east of the Red Desert. The battle is short and inconclusive. During the war, a black fortress is discovered in the sands. It is believed to be the home of Luir Dragonsthrall, last living servant of the Dragon.

888
The armies of Allanak and Tuluk clash on the scrub plains near the Shield Wall. The battle continues, inconclusively, for an entire year.

1461
A small army of Allanaki soldiers launches a surprise attack on Luir's Outpost. After dealing a considerable amount of damage, the army sweeps northward to the Scaien Gates of Tuluk. However, they are met by an enormously larger army, and destroyed in a humiliating defeat. The first victory of either side in the ongoing Allanaki-Tuluki conflict, ever, this Battle of Tuluk re-establishes the northern powers as a force to be reckoned with.

1475 (Year 12 of Age 20)
A minor skirmish takes place just south of Luir's Outpost between the city-state of Allanak and the Northern Alliance that results in the first-ever Allanaki victory over its northern enemy. This takes place during complex negotiations between Kurac and Allanak, after which Kurac is allowed back in Allanak, although the ban on spice still holds. One month later, Allanak seizes Luirs.

1476 (Year 13 Age 20)
Allanak, after centuries of bloodshed and war, launches a successful assault on the Northlands. In a series of bloody battles, Allanaki troops conquer the region of Gol Krathu. The lone surviving Allanaki templar, Elaira Fale of the Blue, is credited with the victory. However, the invaders are unable to finish the job, as Muk Utep holes up in his pyramid and an indefinite siege begins.

1516 (Year 53 Age 20)
After forty years of Allanaki occupation, the Sun Legions of Tuluk launch a surprise attack on the Southern forces occupying the Gol Krathu region.

1522 (Year 59 Age 20)
Simultaneously, a Tuluki force led by the Jihaen templar Gavale Uaptal descends on the Xytrix-Za Valley and slaughters the occupying Allanaki forces.

Okay, so, a -lot- of years generally happen between outright conflict.  However, this conflict has been going on a long, long, long time.  There is going to be some sentiment among the populace I am thinking.  After all, to the average commoner, this conflict has always existed, really.  Also, we have been spoiled by the coolness of Allanak taking over Tuluk.  I mean, according to history, the armies have only fought each other outright seven times in almost almost 1000 years.

Now, I think it would be extremely cool to have what happened in year 888 again.  Scirmishes, lots of little battles.  But the fact is that these guys rarely outright go against one another.

I do think that there should be more discrimination in the North than the South.  Ever since the end of the occupation, it seems like there have been equal efforts to increase discrimination in both.  I don't exactly understand that.  The North was occupied.  Repressed.  I see emotions running a lot more deeply than in the South.  The South just lost some land most people had never even seen.  For the average commoner, so what?

[My 2 sids]

Right now these cities are very close... people travel on holiday, people have friends, stores sell the almost the same merchandise (after working so hard OOCly to create fashions and trends that are realistic and individual to both cities, its very frustrating to see said fashions in the "wrong" city), there is simply a merging of the cultures after all that hard work to separate.  

Personally I don't see a reduction in idle travel between the two city states as inherently bad, I'd much rather see Luir's receive more traffic than it does. To have Luir's be the meeting place and trading Outpost of Allanaki's and Tuluki's, but leave the citystates to a feeling of relative isolationism, socially and economically. I'd also like to see the merchant Houses have to make tougher decisions about how and where they do business.

Exactly!  Now you're getting it.  If we work on setting up more realistic trading (houses), we can then have a distinct, natural, separation between the two powerhouse cities.  Spies would have both a harder time (to get the hang of the culture) and easier time (because everyone and their brother wouldn't know them from the opposite city); as well as become much more valuable.  The caravans, trade routes, and Luir's and possibly even Red Storm would be in higher demand.  Not to mention fun of the world recommended playing times and the plotlines involved in breaking the cities apart again.
:twisted:

[sarahjc]

Distancing Tuluk from Allanak reduces travel. It reduces the number of foreigners visiting/staying.

You have answered yourself right here, I don't understand how seeing more Allanki's in Tuluk makes for more conflict, in fact I just think it leads to them being common place. I agree with Vox on travel and the difficulties should be greater. Much greater.. I don't think we are ready for separate coinage yet.. but I think it should be a feat just to make it to Luirs. When a southerner walks into a northern bar and speaks for the first time.. It should be like a record scratching off the juke box and the crowd falling silent. All of a sudden ten people look at him and say.. "Is he wearing Scrab shell armor? What the Feck is that?" It should be a "What the hell are you doing here?" Not an "Oh.. look there's another one.. "

There was discussion at the AMP about how to make travel a bit more difficult for wagons, because how that stands just now isn't great. But that's a whole other topic..

However, if you can't make travel longer, make it more arduous.

Animals get tired quicker, more big and nastys hanging out closer to the road.. I mean isn't that where all the good eatin' comes from anyway? I'd like to see it as when you get to luirs, you need a rest. I'd like to see the venture to Allanak be a feet.. Not something any 5 day solo ranger with a good sense of direction can do alone in an hour or so.

The hatred is there, it's in the docs.. and it's a historical hatred. No.. it's not as strong as lets say.. right after the liberation of the north, but it's brewing and there is always plotting under the surface. And I am sure that some time,  maybe soon, maybe not so soon, it will come to a head again.

Now.. Zore, I know that anything that takes away from players being able to interact is very opposed by European players because there are so few of you playing at your peek times as is.. Not that that argument isn't valid because it is.. But I really do think that having less travel between the cities will cause much more realistically role played conflict and is worth a few less travelers.

[Angela Christine]

I think an entry tax on foriegners could be ok, as long as it was low like the water tax.  Something like 10 'sid would be good.  10 'sid doesn't seriously deter trade, but it does deter people from living in  the other city to harvest resources.  If you are living in the "wrong" city and go out every few days to hunt or collect raw materials, then 10 'sid per trip could easily become hundreds of 'sid per year.  If you decide to permanently relocate, then the tax would give you an incentive to buy local citizenship (see your local templar or equivelent for details).


Rather than declining to sell to foriegners, shopkeepers might jack up the price a little.  If you are not a citizen of Tuluk, perhaps Tuluki merchants charge 5% more than they charge locals, and pay 5% less.  Bartering can get that down, but given an equal bartering skill, a local will get a better price than a foriegner.  If it could break it down by citizenship perhaps in Tuluk people from Luirs would have a 2% penalty, Allanak a 5% penalty, Red Storm a 4% penalty, delves 5% penalty, and human tribals 2% penalty.  In Allanak, Red Stormers get 1% penalty, Luirs gets a 5% penalty, and Tuluk gets a 5% penalty, delves get a 5% penalty, and human tribals get a 3% penalty.  Cheating the tourists is a popular activity in many RL spots, why not Zalanthas?  This wouldn't make it impossible for independant trader to make a profit, it would just cut into profits a little bit.


AC

[Agent_137]

Animals get tired quicker, more big and nastys hanging out closer to the road.. I mean isn't that where all the good eatin' comes from anyway? I'd like to see it as when you get to luirs, you need a rest. I'd like to see the venture to Allanak be a feat.. Not something any 5 day solo ranger with a good sense of direction can do alone in an hour or so.

Solution:
Kill every kank.
All of them.
No more kanks.

[My 2 sids]

What AC said

[Angela Christine]

Uh oh, I forgot something.  Now I'm going to have to needlessly up my post count.  D'oh.


There is a simple, though not easy, way to increase conflict:  Smart raiding.  Kill, don't kill, whatever.  Not killing will cause more conflict than killing, but your characters will probably die sooner -- both are caused by witnesses.  Witnesses reporting southern raiders near Tuluk will raise more gut-level bad feelings than people simply disappearing.  You aren't raiding just for cash like common bandits, you are acting as terrorists.

By smart raiding, I mean that if you are from Allanak you only "work" north of Luirs.  Even if you see a sitting duck, you don't touch anyone south of Luirs.  Your goal is to spread unease amoung those dirty northerners, not fill your pockets with as much coin as possible.  You never enter Luirs, or any city north of Luirs, because you will (correctly) be considered a criminal in the north.  

If you are from Tuluk you only raid south of Luirs.  You ignore sitting ducks in the forest, they are not your prey.  You never enter Luirs or any city south of luirs, because you will (correctly) be considered a criminal in the south.


Obviously your primary target is citzens of the enemy city, but you don't freak out if you happen to waylay someone from your own area in the target zone.  A trader profiting from consorting with the "enemy" isn't a real patriot like you.  They deserve to have some sense knocked into them.

Luirs leans slightly to the north, but for practical purposes consider it central and self-serving, nuetral but slightly hostile to both major cities (because it doesn't want to become part of either empire).  You don't target Luirs, but you don't consider it an "ally" either, because Kuracis are tretcherous bastards.  Just avoid it.

There are some exceptions.  You may not want to attack the major international merchant houses, regardless of where you find them.  Kadius and Salaar have enough pull that they may be able to get you into trouble in your home city if you bedevil their caravans.  You don't want to attack groups of enemy troops unless you are absolutly certain that you have an overwhelming advantage.  You don't attack your own troops regardless of where you see them, if the Allanak militia is up near Tuluk for some reason, they probably are not traitors or colaborators -- leave them alone.  Don't attack "neutral" troops either, you don't want trouble with the governments of Red Storm, RSE, Luirs, or any of the smaller settlements.  Stay focused.


In most cases a city govenment won't care about what happens half-way accross the known world, even if there are witnesses.  So the lawmen in Allanak probably won't prosocute you for raiding in the north, even if a witness identifies you.  Likewise the lawmen in Tuluk don't much care about what you do down south, even if someone identifies you.  So as long as you stay out of the enemy city, you are unlikely to face negative repercussions at home from your actions.  Your home city is a safe bolt-hole because the people who are looking for you can not get at you within the sturdy walls of your home city -- Tuluki Legonnairs will not ask Allanaki Militia for help, and vice versa.  Common bandits need a secret lair, but you can openly rent an aparment because you are not a criminal in your home city.


AC

[Agent_137]

-tears up-

That's beautiful, AC.