Increasing the starting level of skills

[UberItUp]

I was wondering if it would be a good idea to increase the starting level of skill for non-karma guilds, for players with karma, depending on the characters age.

            Think how long it takes to make an assasin good enough to pull off a assasination, build a character up for so long just to have one good intense Rp which he probably gets killed at.  I mean does it make sense to have a 40 year old ranger and get beat up by rittiki.

           If there would be more responsible players around that would be able to do things more often without having to wait 2-3 months before their character was ready, like pull off assasination, it might be better for the game.   Not to mention how many time would you want to train the same skill over and over and over.

-btw this could be written better but i'm sleepy

[Delirium]

You want that 40 year old ranger to be able to tear the shit out of ritikki? Start his career at 20, I guarantee you he'll be able to do that and more if he survives 'til 40. ;)

Personally, I think things are just fine the way they are.

[sarahjc]

Well, as it is now, how old your PC is, does have a lot to do with your stat roll. But everyone has to learn how to do things. The amazing part about those 40 day PC's is that there are so few of them. And that is because life on Zalanthas is hard, I mean if everyone could beat up a Mek, where would the fun be. Also this mud is an R/P mud, not Hack and Slash. Having such a steep learning curve enforces that.

Now Yes, well.. you said people with Karma, OK.. But how much Karma? If you need 7 Karma to get upped stats, then most likey you are the kind of player that can play around new PC stats. And is it really fair to everyone who plays? I may have an awesome character concept, but not enough Karma to get that boost. I think it's hard enough with roles being cut off.    

A suggestion I would have for you would be to make the background of your PC a loose one. Don't go for the "He is the best fighter in all of Allanak and could kick the ass of everyone around him" approach. Maybe he was the best fighter in his village?? Or instead of him being an uber assassin all his life, he got involved in this lifestyle somehow and decided that he really liked it, and is now sort of testing his skills.

Not that you have to do this, but to fit in the learning curve if I am playing an older pc, I try to make my PC's lives a fresh start of some kind. Maybe there were just thrown into a situation, maybe they were severally wounded.

I agree that it is difficult/frustrating  to start up a brand new pc after playing a really old one.  All of a sudden it takes all your HP away just to contact someone and you get your ass kicked fighting a gortok. But I would say that it only takes about 5 full days of playing time if you are using the skills you need a good amount before you can start to make something of yourself with them.

I like the curve the way it is, I just don't seen the need to change it..

But that's just my opinion.

[Twilight]

Look at it this way.  It took your forty year old ranger character twenty five IC years of roleplaying as a VNPC, out hunting and such as a ranger, to get the immortals to add the ranger skills to your character.  Before that, your character only had his/her subguild skills (ie background skills).

[Sanvean]

I'm not real keen on this idea, for reasons people have already touched on.

[Eclipse]

I don't like the idea of upping starting skills myself for the reason that it wouldn't do anything realistically. You say that by upping the skills, you would be able to start off doing whatever immediately rather than learn it all and it would be based off karma. For those that have gained karma, I think they believe that everything is an experience; though your character's skills and abilities will suck, raising the character from a nobody to somebody who excels in his area is one of those 'along the way' experiences. If you deprive yourself of those experiences, you'll find that you may have missed out on some very important lessons in life (i.e. How not to get killed - which you as a player may or may not know and by learning from another PC, you may find better routes of arriving at that conclusion) as well as a horde of experiences that are enjoyable and something to talk about in game or even for memory's sake.

The second problem is if you raise everyone's starting skills, it won't solve any problems as with the assassin case. A starting warrior will likely still kill the starting assassin in the right situation if you raise everyone's skills equally. It would require training to become better which is the same situation as it is now. So ultimately, you don't really change the situation except make it easier for you to kill mobs in game though, there are already some things which you can kill with relative ease (i.e. rats, etc.) so it would just make it so you can kill a little more but other things would still kick your ass.

The last problem I see with this is that if you give certain people boosts automatically without cause while not giving it to others, you make it so that they're more willing to sacrifice their PCs for things which ICly they may not want to. I.E. I can get another character immediately with skills better than a newbie who's played for 5 days logged so it doesn't really matter if I break character and take a MASSIVE risk since I'm bored and that seems fun. Now, if you're dealing with responsible players, they shouldn't do that so for them, it shouldn't matter what skill level they start out with unless they're maxxed as they'll always have something which they have to aspire to reach (i.e. somebody better than them in combat, etc.) so it's a learning curve either way around.

Ultimately, it isn't about where your skills start but rather how you use them and when you use them that's important. You can start out as a good ranger or assassin but if you don't think things through, you'll still end up dead. By going through this learning curve, you pick up on what you should do in order to survive though it'll likely be a tedious effort and you'll die a good deal until you learn or somebody teaches you.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on it.

[mansa]

I seem to recall that Armageddon once had a 'remort' system, WAAAY back in the day....Before there was Karma, Subclasses, and Stun.

[Flint]

I don't think starting skills should be upped where an Assassin can successfully take down a target in his first week, but I do think that for warriors and maybe assassins, that they should be able to take out a scrab at least.  So yeah, maybe a LITTLE bump in starting skills.  At least for the GUILDS, not the subguilds.  And not just the fighting guilds, merchants, thieves, and burglars as well.

[Twilight]

Just because something like a scrab is common, doesn't mean just anyone can go out and kill it.  The thing that makes this place harsh is the fact that the common stuff out there can routinely kill you, not vice versa.  Scrabs are big, mean, scary bugs.  Thats why most sane people live behind big, thick walls or at least in groups big enough to scare away or deal with this kind of menace.

Think about it.  Scrabs are a menace to most people.  A Menace.  Just because they are common does not negate this.

[Jacques]

Having failed 15 consecutive skill rolls with one of my characters trying to do something very basic, I can empathize with the desire for greater starting skills.  I would, however, suggest that you will have a character with a much richer history if you start at age 25, and live until age 40, than if you start at age 40. You will also have very impressive skills that are relevant to your character's past life. Not every warrior learns the five-point palm technique... did you? Where? Why? How? By starting with lower skills and building them up, not only does your character become a stronger character codewise, but the character also gains the benefit of a personal history. When did you decide that you could kill a tarantula? What creature nearly killed you once, that now you hunt regularly? Why DID you walk to close to that village only to get attacked by the guards? All things that can be a part of your character, and affect the character's life, if you let them. You won't just be better codewise - you'll have a better role to play.

[Akaramu]

There is one single skill that makes me want to leave bite marks on my keyboard every time I start a new PC. Just one skill, leave the starting skill of everything else the same but...

...give the way a small boost depending on age. I dont care about anything else.

[wizturbo]

I'd generally think this is a bad idea too.  BUT I do believe in some cases it'd be good for special app characters to start with a degree of added proficiency in skills.  A sergaent role for instance, it'd be good if they start with a boost in skills so they don't get beaten up by their own damn recruits.  But thats really one of the only situations I can think of where having players start with enhanced skill levels really makes sense.

[Krath]

I dunno why this is an issue personally, but let me touch upon the subject.
Regarding boosted skills,If you wish for your skills to be boosted, Special
APP. There is no reason your skills should be automatically raised from
the get go because your PC is aged older at start, it would take away
from the RP of the game IMHO.  I really do not think the subject needs to
be discussed since any of these ideas can be special apped, But once
again, this is just my opinion.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A sergaent role for instance, it'd be good if they start with a boost in skills so they don't get beaten up by their own damn recruits.

They get a boost.  But it's not enough for some of those damn recruits.

[Solas]

:oops:  (clearing his throat nerviously)On a side note, I feel sending in a special app just to solve all your problems isn't a considerate thing to do, both for the staff and for your own enjoyment. ...(taking a moment to glance anxiously at hidden faces)...Special applications should be a rare instance in your playing career when, after you've done everything you could do to reach your goals, and you still havn't reached it, is something you could fall back on. From the tone of some posts, I'm beginning to think sending in a special application isn't special anymore. Please don't take offense, as I'm not trying to start anything, I just wanted to address the issue.  :wink:

Brushing the sweat quickly from his brow
Going back to the topic, I'm fine the way it is with skills. Zalanthas is  -suppose- to be harsh, and the way starting characters are now, I think it is reasonable at the level now. Also, with your new character just entering into the dynamics of the game, the supposedly low skill levels help your character to take time to wiggle itself in by thinking in a variety of different terms that you wouldn't encounter if you were capable of doing anything right off the bat. Coming to the point that, this game is a roleplaying game and the training part of the game helps alot in contributing to that.

 Again, please be easy on my post as that, I don't really like people having problems with me. I'd do practically anything to be friends.  

[Bestatte]

I agree with Solas regarding the low level skills for starting characters. I'd like to just mention the concern about special apps though...

A special app is available, from what I understand, for anyone who wishes to play something that isn't provided through the normal auto-roll application process.

So a templar, or a "karma character" if you lack the karma, or a warrior/thug who also happens to really love dried flower arrangements and so would like that floristry skill tacked on..

I'm guessing that there've been some doozies of special apps that never made it past the snickers and giggles of the staff. But I'm also guessing that most of them are well thought-out and worth sending, and worth reviewing for approval.

But honestly, the character-creation process of the game can only do so much - and I think it's perfectly appropriate to use the special app process to request something that the char-gen can't provide.

[Solas]

:oops: Hmm, but special apping to have a warrior with a sneak skill, I feel, is something that should be worked out after you've created that warrior. If its a skill that you deem necesary, than I'd be completely willing to say that it's fine, from my view as a player. I have a different feeling on the fact that people are sending in applications that request a skill for a character that you havn't even tried out. I realize there are instances of having a previous character and notion of getting such skill with a similar character, but even then, your new character could be completely different in all aspects, and might end up not even needing such skill/s. Also, with more special applications the staff have to read, it's hard to get everyone's special application through, logically thinking, and approved so that the player can actually play. I've seen alot of posts on the GDB of people asking about  their application and of having waited a couple weeks or so. I'm sure almost everyone would want to play that special character as soon as possible, but with alot of applications that you could handle in other methods, it helps to lengthen the time someone else has to wait to play their character.

It's alot of work for the staff, I feel, when they sort through all thoughs apps. I'm basing all on my logic that getting a special application to go through is alot of time. If the staff are happy recieving apps of characters with a special skill or two, I have no issue at all, rather, I would feel rather apologetic for making a deal of it.

I'd like to mention that I actually have no idea of what the staff think about special apping.

Bestatte said:

I'm guessing that there've been some doozies of special apps that never made it past the snickers and giggles of the staff. But I'm also guessing that most of them are well thought-out and worth sending, and worth reviewing for approval.

I'm sure almost all of the applications are well thought-out. I'm just saying that there might be other methods other than a special application. A special application should be special, is my point.  

[UberItUp]

Had a good nap


            ...I'm still a newb with only a few characters under my belt...just thought for those with karma should get a break from having to train the same skills over and over and over.  How many time can you possibly spar with that dummy.  I don't mean have them come out uber just not need to spar with the dummy any more. Say the person has level 2 karma and picks a warrior/hunter at 40 years of age, maybe he should start at the level of a 5-10 day warrior, at least not have to struggle with the way and ridding(I know it only takes one RL week to learn this, still it's boring and annoying as hell).

                Anyways it's no sweat off my back,  just don't see any reason why those that have gone over, what i'm already annoyed with, have to continue to do it over and over again.  Give them the skills and let them focus completely on Rping the good parts of the character, leave the training sessions with the dummies to us newbs

[Agent_137]

The whole point, uberitup, is the idea that you enjoy playing your character, not the having of l33t sk][llz.

I enjoyed being a sucky runner just learning the ropes. I enjoyed being a weak ranger out in the wilds, fearing for his life. Those times were fun, and if you are bored maxing your skills, I suggest you are going about it wrong.

Use the time to develop your character with thinks. Bitch and moan and try to get more recruits to RP with, or go do it yourself. I admit, lengthy solo-rp SUCKS. But it will happen.

Also, in the future, if you -hate- solo-emoting and solo-training, try to customize your characters to suit your preferences in the begining. And also becareful about joining clans that prevent freedom of movement, if they don't have a large player base. (only way to find that out is look around while you're online to see who else of which clan is online.) Also, most of this should be done in the character creation stage. Joining the byn because you see a lot of PCs in brown abas is kinda iffy on the OOC knowledge scale.

Have fun.

[Bestatte]

Also just to note:

If you're playing a clanned combat-oriented character (warrior, assassin, whatever), and that clan requires you to spar, then you gotta spar. How much MORE annoying is it gonna be to show up as a new recruit to the clan with the skills of a 5-10-day warrior and be treated like - a new recruit?

No matter how good your skills are, if you're in a situation where you are required to spar, you will come in as a new person to that clan, and be treated accordingly. No one is going to give you extra days off just because you can beat the crap out of the other new recruits. There are more than one reason for required sparring.

1) To boost skills
2) To learn technique (roleplaying)
3) To learn discipline (repetition until you faint from the monotony)
4) To learn to obey orders without complaint
5) To learn to appreciate your other clan mates and learn to trust them, and for them to learn to trust you

If your only reason to spar is #1, then I would agree with Agent and say you're doing it wrong.

[Krath]

Brushing the sweat quickly from his brow
Going back to the topic, I'm fine the way it is with skills. Zalanthas is  -suppose- to be harsh, and the way starting characters are now, I think it is reasonable at the level now. Also, with your new character just entering into the dynamics of the game, the supposedly low skill levels help your character to take time to wiggle itself in by thinking in a variety of different terms that you wouldn't encounter if you were capable of doing anything right off the bat. Coming to the point that, this game is a roleplaying game and the training part of the game helps alot in contributing to that.

Good Post and Ditto