Subguilds

[Twilight]

Do we really have enough subguilds?  Have we exhausted the total supply of non-abusable skill combinations available for subguilds?

The commoner guild thread discusses a guild that would choose three subguilds.  I thought a discussion of a) subguilds you'd like to see in the current environment b) subguilds in a commoner-guild environment and c) subguilds available only to a commoner guild would be worthwhile.  Please be clear about which situation you are talking about.

For myself, in the current environment, I would like to see more location based subguilds.  Currently nomad is essentially the only one.  Location based subguilds would at a minimum change your accent to the appropriate type.

Allanaki - Appropriate accent, enchanced dual wield, some other skill?
Tuluki - Appropriate accent, enhanced shield use, some other skill?
Red Storm - Appropriate accent, better able to see in blowing sand?
Luirs - Appropriate accent, haggle (for those desert markets?), very poor bendune?

[jhunter]

I dunno, about the only ideas I have are:

A calvary subguild that would give basically the mounted combat abilities of a ranger but with lower caps. (the charge skill...etc...)

Or a highwayman subguild that would give outdoor sneak, hide and backstab...all at lower caps than the others that get them.

Just a couple ideas, haven't really thought through how abusable they may or may not be.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Or a highwayman subguild that would give outdoor sneak, hide and backstab...all at lower caps than the others that get them.

Even if it is balanced, a subclass that gives backstab is going to make a lot of people concerned.  I'd suggest giving them sap instead.  There's already a subclass with sap, and it hasn't unbalanced the game, so it's more likely to be okayed.  And highwayman?  There are no highways.  But I do like the idea of the Raider subclass.  Hiding behind a rock and waiting to brain somebody should be a relatively simple task.

[Lazloth]

A calvary subguild that would give basically the mounted combat abilities of a ranger but with lower caps. (the charge skill...etc...)

I don't like this, but mainly because I don't like the restriction on who can charge and who can't, and this would validate that as justified.

I really do like city-state origin determining varied %s.   There was a thread that disappeared which talked about merchants (with some variegation that I thought was reasonable), and the combat thing (shields vs dual) makes sense.   These honed specializations don't need to be a part of subguilds though.

[Sir Diealot]

I'd agree with city based bonuses.. As opposed to just an accent.. Esp. the Luir's/Bedune..

EXCEPT that sometimes you've lived your live in X city..and are just moving to Y city.

[jhunter]

But I do like the idea of the Raider subclass.

Right that's what I mean...obviously there are no highways. :roll:

I don't like this, but mainly because I don't like the restriction on who can charge and who can't, and this would validate that as justified.

Ummmm...I'm not sure what you mean exactly.... :?

[Anonymous]

Mostly I thought of the origin subguilds being for those who started the game in one city, but had in their background being from another city.  Since subguilds are supposed to be about background anyways...

Backstab will never get in a subguild.  Neither will mindbender powers, magick, or any other extremely powerful skill.  I think thats been sufficiently addressed by staff before.

Some other ideas:

Dune Trader: Sirihish (medium level) and haggle (for those elven traders out there)

Evesdropper:  Climb, listen and flee

Spy:  Listen, search and peek

Tribal Hunter:  Throw, spear making and skin

[jhunter]

I understand what people are saying, but me personally...I just don't consider backstab that powerful. Yes, -potentially- it could be...but not with all the IC restrictions that make learning it  so hard. Also, as a subguild skill, it would have a much lower cap than an assassin's version so it wouldn't be near as dangerous.

But I do see what some are saying perhaps sap as a replacement to the same idea.

*shrug*

[EvilRoeSlade]

Evesdropper:  Climb, listen and flee

So far all of the subguilds represent legitimate, realistic backgrounds that a person could actually have, and not arbitrary crap.  I personally would like to keep it that way.

[Anonymous]

I don't care, I like playing this game.

Bounty Hunter: Scan, Hunt, Search.

Slaver: Subdue, Throw, Pilot

[Dresan]

Isn't it four things you get with a subclass...if i could chose i would pick

listen, haggle, climb, skin ...I don't know what i would call it but a warrior with this class would be fun to play if not overly uber.

[Angela Christine]

Tribal Hunter:  Throw, spear making and skin

Hey, that kank stole my idea!  I have proof, see?  http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2175  I've even idea'd  my two favorite potential subguilds in game, to no avail. :cry:  

Since I like being repetative, here are my two favorites again:


Spearman - Throw, Skin, Spear making.

Tanner - Skin, Tanning, Leatherworking.


AC

[da mitey warrior]

There needs to be a subguild which gets the throwing skill.   There's 2 which get archery, so a throwing subguild would be good.  It'd be good for hunters.  

There also needs to be a subguild which gets the new axemaking and clubmaking skills.

Other than that I think the subguilds are fine.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Tanner - Skin, Tanning, Leatherworking.

I'm fairly certain that a subclass consisting of all those skills and more exists.

[Angela Christine]

Tanner - Skin, Tanning, Leatherworking.

I'm fairly certain that a subclass consisting of all those skills and more exists.

You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.  Only one subguild gets Skinning.  That other one sounds like it should get skinning, but it doesn't, and you don't find out about it until you play a non-skinning guild with that subclass.


Angela Christine

[My 2 sids]

I do think the descriptions of guilds and subclasses could use a good going over for the simple fact that the jobs in game are different.  Employees expect different things now.

Granted, I've not tried everything... but here are some ideas I'd like to add, if not already done:

Haggle – I think both linguists and house servants should have this.  House servants would be aide type people who have good people skills and do shopping for their employees.  Linguists would pick up not only other languages but cultures as well... if they can pick up cultures, they'd know how to pick up people skills enough to haggle with merchants.  

Commoner – Someone brought up the commoner idea as a guild.  I'd say commoners would get forage w/ food, kick, bludgeon weapons, and repair everything.

[Miee]

Commoners should also get cooking, unless that's one of the universal skills.

I'd look, but words are becoming blurr....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Miee is very tired.  If you read any posts by her today, they may ooh!  shiny!

[Agent_137]

Poor Miee.

*pets the Miee*

[wizturbo]

I'd personally like to be able to pick up more then one subguild by learning from other players or solo roleplay if need presents itself.  All of the subguilds have low skill caps, so I don't really see someone ever becoming overpowered by being able to learn skills from another subguild.  

I'd say, the 'teach' command should be able to to eventually (and i mean, after many attempts) give someone the skill with a low-cap.  These are people we are talking about, who can learn new skills even if they aren't really their cup of tea.  I'm sure a noble who has never cooked a meal in his entire life, could learn to make bread if need presented itself.  Or a wealthy merchant learn to hide, if there are lots of people after him for an extended period of time.

[Dresan]

I must admit Wiz's idea sound tempting, probably because we all know just how much that could be overly abused, esspecially if not implemeted correctly.


               But even if it were implemented correctly to avoid serious twinking and so it would take RL years for a character to become uber or have every skill ( not to mention making some skill like Backstab unteachable) , i can aready hear some arguements that this will make people focus more on skills and making uber character then on actually RPing weaknesses and strengths or relying on others.

[Vettrock]

I personally think linguists should be bedune as well.  Sirhish and allundean are useful, but mikirrim, well I've runn into very few dwarves who were not newbie who had trouble speaking sirhish.

[wizturbo]

I believe there should be 2 different linguist subguilds.

Bendune, allundean and sirihish.  "Tribal languages"

Cavilish, mirikkum and sirihish.   "City languages"

Linguists should also learn languages faster then any other subguild.

I realize some people might say cavilish shouldn't be available in a subguild, but I ABSOLUTELY hate that people immediately know your a certain guild simply by finding out you understand a language.

[Agent_137]

To knit-pick,

two linguist subguilds is a waste. Just have one, and add in bedune. If you don't want one, email the mud asking them to take it away.

Plus, alludean is a city language, also.


As far as learning languages faster, I was under the impression that they do.

[RunningMountain]

I think the subguilds give too much already, they should be toned down, I mean hunters in my opinion were always ridiculous.  A re-hashing of the way you pick them could help with this, like only allowing rangers to pick hunter as the subguild, it only makes sense for a ranger to be a hunter, unless you want to use the excuse that just because you're picking that guild doesn't mean you can't roleplay it another way? You can use that excuse, and most people will - but if you're going to roleplay a hunter, pick the ranger class, not assassin and hunter so you can have backstab.

[Anonymous]

I personally think linguists should be bedune as well.  Sirhish and allundean are useful, but mikirrim, well I've runn into very few dwarves who were not newbie who had trouble speaking sirhish.

The question is, which is more often the case, which language would a linguist be more exposed to?  Which is spoken more prevalently, mirukkim or bendune.  To me the answer to that question is the answer to what the third linguist language should be.

[jhunter]

I think adding Bendune to the linguist subguild is a good idea, personally.

I would think that there's as much chance of them knowing Bendune as the person knowing mirukkim.

[Delirium]

I don't. Bendune is a language spoken out in the desert and in locations that tribals frequent (hint: generally not large cities), and it takes a long time to know a language properly - so you would have to have constant contact with a speaker of it for a solid amount of time.

The nomad and one other subguild (dune trader?) cover this. Linguist strikes me as much more of a city-based subguild - and the three most common languages of the cities are in it.

Me, I think that with the upsurge of tribal characters I've seen lately, people just go 'woah cool, I wanna be able to chat with these guys!' I say to that, go through the effort of learning the language IC, or pick an appropriate subguild.

[Lazloth]

Thought I read this, but don't spot it.

* Linguist subguild to grant its language pool & proficiencies based on char's starting location.

Haggle – I think both linguists and house servants should have this.

You're freaking nuts.

[jhunter]

Bendune is a language spoken out in the desert and in locations that tribals frequent (hint: generally not large cities), and it takes a long time to know a language properly - so you would have to have constant contact with a speaker of it for a solid amount of time.

Not true, in both of the major cities there are marketplaces where those tribals and such come to trade. One of them in particular has a place that is mostly tribals doing their trade.

And that's not counting the outposts where people do alot of trade from all different cultures.

[Delirium]

Yes, trade, but I don't really percieve them as staying there long-term. And I was referring to the two large cities, not to outposts.. I don't think it's any secret that Luir's is well-known for having a constant presence of human tribals.

Maybe a smattering of Bendune, but I still don't think anyone would know it very well unless they had constant, prolonged contact with someone willing to teach them.

[jhunter]

So, since a linguist is one who takes the time to learn other languages, and the tribals are there to trade. Why in the world -wouldn't- the linguist trade to learn the language?

[Delirium]

A linguist already gets three languages. That's a lot. Being fluent in three languages is nothing to sneeze at, and in fact it's pretty darn impressive. Then you top that off with Bendune, which is supposedly a somewhat difficult and different language to grasp for outsiders, and is mainly spoken out in the desert and among tribes - I imagine tribals use sirihish while they're in the city so they can communicate - not to mention that those tribals may not be willing to teach some stupid city-kept their language - sorry, I just think it overpowers the linguist subguild way too much.

I could see another subguild combination where you get bendune and allundean, and maybe a smattering of cavlish as well. That could work. But I don't think linguists should get it.

Not to mention.. what you said just sounds like some fun RP. Why rob yourself of the chance to work through all that through the course of play?

[jhunter]

Well, as you said yourself...in some situations that linguist would also have Bendune, if that linguist was from Luir's anyway.

What would be cool is if you could pick three languages for your linguist to know, within reason of course.

Maybe pick three from a list of:

sirhish

allundean

mirukkim

bendune

And be able to also speak them with the different accents. (northern, southern)


*shrug*

[Delirium]

Well, as you said yourself...in some situations that linguist would also have Bendune, if that linguist was from Luir's anyway.

I didn't say that.

I did insinuate that people might have more of a chance to pick up a smattering of it if they spent most of their time there.

Anyway, I wouldn't be against it being given out in the manner I described in my above post. The way subguilds are coded, I believe your suggestion would require a code change, and I think it would be simpler to just create a new subguild that gives out allundean, bendune, and moderate cavlish. The accents you spoke them with would still depend on where you started.

[Larrath]

A smattering of a language is not the same as knowing it.  If someone spoke to me in French, I might be able to pick up a couple of words and get the general gist of things...maybe.  This does not mean I can talk to them with any semblence of fluence, though.

Giving Linguists another language, and thus leaving the only language people would want to learn (I'm keeping Tatlum out of this because 99% of people won't dare try), is just going over the top.

Should desert-based linguists get Bendune?  Damn straight, but not everyone...and no way should they get Cavilish.  Cavilish is not nearly as secret as the Merchant Houses would like, but it's still not a language that is just slightly less popular than Allundean.
I'd say that one in sixty would know Cavilish in one of the city-states, possibly even less.

Sure, it sucks that people can go "He knows Cavilish, I know my pickpocket can mug him", but giving everyone the language is not a solution.  Making it possible to be a merchant who does not know Cavilish, or maybe even has some fighting abilities, could solve that, though.

[Solas]

Hmm, I'll also agree that we should replace mirikkum with bendune, and due to the fact that it's not a so called "city-language" as you guys are calling it, then why not have it toned down as perhaps the skill level of a new elf knowing sirihish? I feel bendune would be much more useful to a linguist, and more probable due to the fact that it's nearly a second language outside the walls, if not a primary language. Also, PC-wise, there is little reason to know mirikkum because they are not that populous. In the desert, there are no dwarven tribes to trade with; in the city, there is no dwarven ghetto such as humans and elves have (Rinth as an example). If theres so little ways to interact with many dwarves, how then could a linguist learn the language fluently? I'd say they have more chance of being around bendune-speaking people than mirikkum-speaking dwarves. And if there -is- a rare instance when you need to speak mirikkum to communicate with dwarves, you could always learn it ICly. I'm guessing the reason mirikkum was given to a linguist is to provide a way to breach the language barrier between whatever race to dwarves, but there really is no reason to breach that gap since there is no mainly-mirikkum speaking dwarves.         ....hmm, I think I'm rambling.

...my point is that a linguist would (find a neccesity to use) bendune more than mirrikum.  

[wizturbo]

It all comes down to this.  I hate how everyone is a cookie cutter.  From noticing just a few skills they know exactly what someone is capable of, and thats bullshit.  I'm tempted to try and make special app characters everytime just to prevent people from putting me in some cookie cutter mold.  The warrior that speaks cavilish.  The assassin who's too honorable to use backstab, but is damn good with a longbow.  The burglar who's fingers just can't work a lockpick, so they figured just beating someone over the head with a club and taking their keys was a better solution.


I HATE cookie cutters.

[jhunter]

The assassin who's too honorable to use backstab, but is damn good with a longbow. The burglar who's fingers just can't work a lockpick, so they figured just beating someone over the head with a club and taking their keys was a better solution.

Uhmmm...you can already do these... :?

[Solas]

That's what the subguilds are there for... .

[Bogre]

I dunno, about the only ideas I have are:

A calvary subguild that would give basically the mounted combat abilities of a ranger but with lower caps. (the charge skill...etc...)

Or a highwayman subguild that would give outdoor sneak, hide and backstab...all at lower caps than the others that get them.

Just a couple ideas, haven't really thought through how abusable they may or may not be.

I don't think cavalry could really evolve well in Zalanthas with the lack of quick mounts. Think about massed ranks of archers, just firing time and time again on people mounted on...kanks.

[jhunter]

From the documentation:

War Beetle : These large, highly agressive insects are almost identical to ordinary beetles save in size. Covered in a thick chitin, typically ranging from dark browns to blacks, these beetles boast very powerful mandibles which can deliver hard bites. Though larger and slower than kanks, domesticated war beetles are prized by mercenaries and professional soldiers alike for their thicker shells and overall strength in combat. Large armies often employ units of riders mounted upon war beetles as heavy cavalry in battle.

[Solas]

I would actually like to see more mounted battles, perhaps a mounted unit in one of the great Houses could be used...in many ways than it firsts appears to be. I'm sure House Tor in Allanak would have thought of some such notion in the past. Look at the usefulness of cavilry in medieval times, even with longbowmen and crossbowmen being used. Cavilry sometimes won or lost a battle...actually, cavilry became almost a necessity in battles at the peak of mounted infantry greatness.

[Bogre]

From the documentation:

War Beetle : These large, highly agressive insects are almost identical to ordinary beetles save in size. Covered in a thick chitin, typically ranging from dark browns to blacks, these beetles boast very powerful mandibles which can deliver hard bites. Though larger and slower than kanks, domesticated war beetles are prized by mercenaries and professional soldiers alike for their thicker shells and overall strength in combat. Large armies often employ units of riders mounted upon war beetles as heavy cavalry in battle.

I stand corrected, I forgot about those things.

[Angela Christine]

What would be cool is if you could pick three languages for your linguist to know, within reason of course.

Maybe pick three from a list of:

sirhish

allundean

mirukkim

bendune

Instead of your normal starting languages?  

While the subclass gets three languages, the vast majority of characters really only gain 2 languages, sometimes just one and a half.  


AC

[wizturbo]

Instead of your normal starting languages?  

While the subclass gets three languages, the vast majority of characters really only gain 2 languages, sometimes just one and a half.  


AC

Yup.  Which is why I think adding bendune and/or cavilish as an option would help make the subguild more useful.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Maybe pick three from a list of:

sirhish

allundean

mirukkim

bendune

That's exactly the same as just flat out giving all linguists bendune.  Think about it.

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
Maybe pick three from a list of:

sirhish

allundean

mirukkim

bendune


That's exactly the same as just flat out giving all linguists bendune. Think about it.

Which contributes to proof of the point that they should get Bendune rather than Mirukkim.

[Anonymous]

change accent skill would be amazing to have, for spies at least, I'd love the rogue classes to have this, probably merchants should get it too...that is if it isn't already a skill.

[Solas]

There was a discussion on that idea before I believe. Somewhere in the GDB... . It would be kinda unlikely to speak both an american accent and an australian accent fluently without mispernouncing a single word, even if you had practiced for 10 years. Its almost like trying to impersonate another person's voice...in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Actors do it (The one that comes to mind in lucy lawless, Xena, she has a strong british accent in RL)  and real life linguists... a con artist or merchant would probably take the time to do it right just because of the benifits...coarse your right it wouldn't be perfect all the time but hey it's the same with all skills, they aren't 100%.