Elven discrimination - IC vs OOC

[Incognito]

Recently having played a few elven PCs I experienced something which I thought worth sharing here.

It seems in the cities, especially in Allanak, elves are severely discriminated against.Now, I am aware that Allanak houses the infamous Labyrinth, and is home to various unsavoury characters.

Consider this, if you will : There will always be a few elven PCs who twink out, and abuse their skills to steal, PK or inflict other types of elven nastiness beyond reason. But, those players are exceptions, and are exactly what have given the elven race a bad reputation in an OOC manner.

By automatically disdaining all elves, you as a human or dwarf or half-elf are reducing your chances of fun RP, and also restricting the RP elven PCs can have with you! Please bear that in mind. It should not be a given that all elves are to be hated, as quite a few PCs seem to be doing these days. This in my opinion might be more from OOC pre-conclusions, as against any IC reason/event/personal experience for that particular PC.

Folks, elves are like any other humanoid race - if you as a PC have a pre-ascertained hatred or dislike towards them, you are doing yourself as well as other elven PCs gross injustice! There is enormous potential for fun RP if you consider elves as part of everyday life, and treat them as you would other races. Some elves abuse the code, and have managed to give an OOC label to elves, but you should not even think of that as a PC.

On the other hand, I would also like to respectfully put a small note for elven PCs (and I definitely dont mean to instruct anyone about how they should RP ICLY here) - just because you can break into most houses or just because you can steal a character naked in 10 minutes, doesnt mean you have to take it to the limit. Remember to do things in moderation, so that you dont have the entire population hating and hunting you and everyone else who looks like you!

An example would be: A human in Star Trek dealing with a Firengi (sp?). The human would definitely interract with the Firengi, but with a constant alertness to see if he's getting conned! I hope that helps explain things.

To summarize:
Elves are not gith or halflings. Do not hate them inherently because of past experiences or from what you see other PCs RPing. You can have a lot of fun RPing with them, and vice versa.

[Avril]

Who's with me? Everyone? Well, then...
KILL THE BLOODY LONGNECKS!

Let me point out that, in real life, if I had the choice of killing people who I knew to be lying, thieving bastards, I'd form a lynch mob. Lynch mobs are great fun, especially when you're not the victim, and I can see a lot of role-playing to be had in an improvised crucifixion. I'd love to take part in an anti-elven pogrom, where soldiers and commoners ganged up on some unwitting longneck and butchered the crap out of him, so long as the code supported it, simply because it creates a great role-playing opportunity and a feeling of how humans would realistically treat elves in less-than-sober moments (remember, people don't even need to consider you a lying, thieving elven bastard to attack you - the very fact that you belong to an ill-reputed race can motivate them). In fact, I believe there are quite a few militia roles available for the starry-eyed executioners out there, so why not try out your fancy new obsidian sword in some sharp-eared taffer's gut?

I'm not sure if the Barrel uses the brawl code, but I've never seen any drunken mercenaries in the Gaj deciding to pay a visit to the northerner-loving, longneck-run bar and shove the bard's lute (or whatever it was) up his ass, or pick a fight with random longnecks. Teach those fuckers not to mess with you again, and if they didn't mess with you at all, well, they still deserved it. They're all bloody thieves, remember?

I do appreciate that some longnecks, in some parts of some cities, have better prices than most humans. In these cases, my characters might label them "less of a longneck" or just enjoy the fact that they're forcing the bastard to buy high and sell low. I'm talking about both PCs and NPCs, of course... Still, if your PC (elf or otherwise) tries to scam mine, no matter what my character's mindset, I don't see why he wouldn't just leave the bargaining table (unless he wanted to turn the tables and scam *your* PC).

Anyway, more mischief! More mischief, I say!

[spawnloser]

Avril, more mischief?  Yes.  More mayhem and outright hatred of a race that should only be distrusted?  No.  I'm with Incognito here.

[Larrath]

I agree that it appears people hate elves more than they should.  Elves should just be more regular, and I think this should be enforced by adding more elven NPCs to 'regular' places.  The Gladiator and the Gaj, the Barrel, the Bazaar and the streets.


The biggest part of discrimation, however, is that I don't think enough people involve elves in their roleplay, and this is an actually bad thing.  I'm also guilty of this because I could not think of reasons to approach them, but still.

[Cuusardo]

Elves are out there to lie to, steal from, and cheat you.  Why wouldn't you try to do them that same courtesy?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd love to take part in an anti-elven pogrom, where soldiers and commoners ganged up on some unwitting longneck and butchered the crap out of him, so long as the code supported it, simply because it creates a great role-playing opportunity and a feeling of how humans would realistically treat elves in less-than-sober moments (remember, people don't even need to consider you a lying, thieving elven bastard to attack you - the very fact that you belong to an ill-reputed race can motivate them).

And why doesn't the code support this?  Because that is NOT how you're supposed to treat elves.

Elves are the second most populous race on Zalanthas, only less than humans by a slim margin.  Most people wouldn't go any farther than distrusting elves, because who hate them enough to attempt to kill them at any opportunity aren't going to last very long.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Ya know, I remember a post from a few months back complaining that elves were not discriminated against and hated nearly enough.

Hanging out with an elf would be cool but in the setting of Zalanthas you would likely be more inclined to kill them.

[Delirium]

There's a pretty big grey area between "hanging out" with an elf and "killing" an elf...

I'm with the original poster in this.

[Gilvar]

Please read all available documentation on elves before saying they should not automatically be discriminated against. Its in an elves nature, their very being, to lie-cheat-steal. This is not optional, and any elf who doesn't play this way is role-playing badly. There isn't special cases where elves become philanthropists and kind-caring souls. Its just not who they are, or who they should ever become. Similarly they don't view it in the same negative connotation that the outside races would, its just a cultural difference. And finally with elves being a major population in Allanak these cultural tendancies would be well established, creating a general discrimination for the worse on all elves.

Anyone who is not another elf that would befriend, trust, or not shun an elf they do not know would have to be either an idiot, too young to know better, or suffering from some mental affliction that distorts common perceptions.

[Delirium]

I'm not saying that people should all be buddy buddy with strange elves, Gilvar, nor do I think the original poster was, either. Nor am I saying people should trust elves or be kindly disposed to them just because they deal with them. I just want to see more varied types of interaction - heck, more interaction in general instead of a complete lack of it besides 'kill elf'.

It just seems that people don't know how to deal with the grey area between being someone's best buddy in the world and utterly loathing/killing them.

[Gilvar]

Actually, I was responding to this:

By automatically disdaining all elves, you as a human or dwarf or half-elf are reducing your chances of fun RP, and also restricting the RP elven PCs can have with you! Please bear that in mind. It should not be a given that all elves are to be hated, as quite a few PCs seem to be doing these days. This in my opinion might be more from OOC pre-conclusions, as against any IC reason/event/personal experience for that particular PC.

Which is incorrect. It should be a given, for the reasons mentioned in my above post. The general belief should be: Elves bad. Not: this elf may be okay.

[Armaddict]

I don't mind, so much.

I don't think people should be going -out of their way- to hate a nearby elf, but should they get -any- contact with that elf, the longneck will get the worst of it.

It's one of the things I love about playing elves...everyone -hates- you, many want to -kill- you, and you've got to earn their trust so that you can take advantage of them, heh.

Just like in real-life, there are always extremists.  Most of these extremists are played by PC's.  And it works out fine that way, in my opinion.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Please read all available documentation on elves before saying they should not automatically be discriminated against.

Oh, okay.

Well, lookie here.

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races.

I think that hating something and avoiding it if you happen to be an honest person are two very different things.  As a law-abiding person in real life, I avoid marijuana but I sure as hell don't hate it.

So in other words, I think you're wrong.  And come on people.  Who the fuck wants to be honest?

[Kanks, Anonymous]

Gilvar is also wrong, because there are certain peoples who have no particular "issues" with elves, or magickers, or hell - not even sorcs of a certain type, or breeds for that matter. They have no REASON to have issues with them as groups. They were not born into cities where they were taught to have issues with them by their environment. They work along side these groups of people as a matter of survival and learn their ways, earn their respect and yes - even friendship in some circumstances.

They're the exception to the rule sure, but they are not idiots, mentally ill, or too young to know better.

[Gilvar]

First of all I didn't use the word hate in any of posts. Neither did I say PCs should go out of their way to hunt down and kill elves. Might be confusing, but I also never said they should take every chance they can to interact and make life unbearable for elves. (All of these being the opposite of avoiding).


I did however say in my first post:
Anyone who is not another elf that: trusted, befriended, or didn't shun another elf would be an idiot.

And in my second post I said:
The general belief should be: Elves bad. Not: this elf may be okay.

Both of those are correct, so no In other words... Im not wrong. Elves would not be 'avoided' if they weren't bad, or had a developed stigma indicitive of their thieving and untrustworthy nature. Elves should be viewed with discrimination, and yes as you pointed out from the documentation, avoided. That means not sitting like a stump with a smile on your face when one plops down on the bar beside you, or taking the time to hear their explanation of how their hand ended up in your pack.

Hope that clears it up.

They're the exception to the rule sure, but they are not idiots, mentally ill, or too young to know better.

Yes, obvious exceptions, like people who have been taken in through the series of complicated loyalty tests, and then a few others.

Im speaking in general. Just like magickers are GENERALLY hated and feared, elves are GENERALLY discriminated against because of their undeniable nature as thieves and con-artists.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Anyone who is not another elf that: trusted, befriended, or didn't shun another elf would be an idiot.

It says that honest people ought to shun elves.  It doesn't say that everybody should.

I agree that humans shouldn't trust elves or befriend them, but the way you would have it is humans completely ignoring elves as they happily chat in the elf-infested Barrel.  All that will do is make elves unplayable.

[mansa]

Most elves live in a tribe.  Working for a second organization would be...  difficult... at best.  You would be split between your goals, and most people understand this.

I can see Kurac hiring the few elves that have had their tribes destroyed, or have been 'banned' from their tribes.  I think Kadius and Salarr should hire elves, aswell.   They -can- be the best merchants that you have, because they are so wily.

But...those elves should be few and far between.  Most elves live in their family unit.  That's stated as a fact.  If every single elf you make has 'no' tribe, then, honestly, you're not playing a Zalanthas elf.  You're playing a Tolkien elf.

...

Now, you then have to think about the playability issue.  I'll use a Mul for my racial roleplay example.   90% of muls are slaves.  Yet, whenever someone plays one, they end up escaping and doing other stuff.  The PC base of Muls, almost 10% of them are slaves.  It's crazy to think that even though the Docs say something, we as players cannot hold true to them and want to do things our own way, with our own fun.

Most players don't know the names of any city elf tribes.  Most players don't know how many tribes there is, or where they live, or how they go about life.  They have no idea what the population of their tribe is, or how to act in a tribal fashion. I think this is a major problem, and should be addressed first.

If there could be about 5 well written city elven tribes, then I'm sure more people will play elves in the cities.  If you're an elf that isn't in a tribe, then perhaps you should -state- that when you're asking Salarr for a job, and I assume Salarr will hire you on a temporary setting.   If Salarr says no, then I think the people behind those salarr players are realistically thinking about the world that they live in, or perhaps they just feckin' hate elves.

[Armaddict]

Some city elf tribes are in already.  There isn't documentation on them, however, and they're npc only.

Perhaps one of the new imms can help out with this.

[mansa]

Some city elf tribes are in already.  There isn't documentation on them, however, and they're npc only.

Perhaps one of the new imms can help out with this. :)

Perhaps YOU should write one and send it in.  They -might- make a 'clan' flag for you!

[Armaddict]

I tried.  It failed miserably.

[Anonymous]

Racial discrimination should be the norm, not the exception.

Though, in much the same vein as Magickers, hating something doesn't mean shunning it, though reasons for not shunning a magicker are much different than reasons for not shunning an elf.

My opinions, at least.

[Angela Christine]

It just seems that people don't know how to deal with the grey area between being someone's best buddy in the world and utterly loathing/killing them.

That's true.  It is the same problem elementalists in Allanak have.  I think
people are afraid of doing the wrong thing (being too friendly) and getting
the RP police on their asses, so many go for the route of totally
ignoring/avoiding shunned types.  If I don't do anything, then I can't do
anything wrong.  So with both groups you are left with most PCs ignoring
you, or attempting to kill you.  There doesn't seem to be a guideline on how
to cautiously interact with these people in a "realistic" and thematically
consistant way, so people don't interact with them at all.

So how DO you interact with people you distrust?




And now for something completely similar.


***

It seems in the cities, especially in Allanak, elementalists are severely
discriminated against. Now, I am aware that Allanak houses the infamous
Elementalist Quarter, and is home to various unsavoury characters.


                  By automatically disdaining all elementalists, you as a regular
person are reducing your chances of fun RP, and also restricting the RP
elementalist PCs can have with you! Please bear that in mind. It should not
be a given that all elementalists are to be hated, as quite a few PCs seem to
be doing these days.

                  Folks, elementalists are like any other humanoid - if you as a
PC have a pre-ascertained hatred or dislike towards them, you are doing
yourself as well as other elementalist PCs gross injustice! There is enormous
potential for fun RP if you consider elementalists as part of everyday life,
and treat them as you would other professions.

***

I agree that it appears people hate elementalists more than they should.
Elementalists should just be more regular, and I think this should be
enforced by adding more elementalist NPCs to 'regular' places. The
Gladiator and the Gaj, the Barrel, the Bazaar and the streets.

The biggest part of discrimation, however, is that I don't think enough
people involve elementalists in their roleplay, and this is an actually bad
thing. I'm also guilty of this because I could not think of reasons to
approach them, but still.

***

There's a pretty big grey area between "hanging out" with an elementalist
and "killing" an elementalist...

***

I agree that regular people shouldn't trust elementalists or befriend them, but
the way you would have it is regular people completely ignoring
elementalists as they happily chat in the elementalist-infested Barrel.  All
that will do is make elementalists unplayable.

***

Just a bit of fun.  :twisted:


AC

[Incognito]

It seems (and I'm sure folks have seen it happen in the taverns), that PCs take a more casual approach to magickers sitting at the bar, than elven PCs.

Its things like this which made the basis for my original post.

Here's an attempt at grading what a human commoner "might" feel towards fellow humanoids on Zalanthas:

Other humans - neutral feelings
Half-giants - neutral feelings
Dwarves and half-elves - neutral to wary feelings
Muls - mostly ignored - too low on the social rung - like slaves
Elves - inherent alertness - but still on talking terms
Militia - respectful distance
Nobility - respectful distance - not to be approached unless called upon
Templarate - respectful fear
Magickers - fear - not to be approached usually (kill on sight in some parts of the Known World)
Citizens of other city-states - contempt to slight hatred
Raiders, Gith, Halflings - Kill on sight
Mindbenders, defilers, rapists, murderers - extreme hatred, hunted to exclusion
Muk and Tek - extreme fear - high possibility of loosing control over personal excretory functions

This discrimination/fear scale is by no means perfect, but at the same time, maybe enough to give a general idea of where elves might stand in the "big picture".

[X-D]

Muls - mostly ignored - too low on the social rung - like slaves

It is never a good idea to ignore a mul, slave or not, maybe read the mul docs then repost on that...cringe.

As for elves, Even elves view other elves with distrust if they are not from the same tribe, they KNOW what lying cheating thieving bastards they are.

If I was to play a human (a rare thing I admit) Elves would be viewed as always trying to cheat your or steal from you, so, speaking terms, heh, not likly unless I wanted something, and even then I'm gonna sit/stand as far as I can and still be able to talk. Humans will have been taught from birth that all elves are out to steal everything they can from everybody they can, it does not matter if it is true or not. And from an RP perspective, any time I see a human getting chummy with an elf I just hope that the elf's player has some mad scheme to rob this person over and over without them knowing it, a quite prideful act for an elf.

[Anonymous]

Half-giants - neutral feelings

Yeah and I disagree about this one too. I don't think that anyone would be neutral about a creature of that size and strength. They could potentially tear a person in half for fuck's sake.

Also, it says in the docs that they are easy to change allegiances...so that would make them untrustworthy for the most part.

I think many would be wary or distrustful around them because of the potential danger. Just as some wouldn't be because the lack of brains. I would think that most would either go one way or another and those that are neutral would be in the minority.