Elven discrimination - IC vs OOC

[jstorrie]

Being openly hostile to elves doesn't mean one loses out on roleplaying with them.  Rather, you're just roleplaying in another fashion.

Conflict can (and often is) more fun than just sitting around the Barrel and tossing back a few ales.

[spawnloser]

Yes, jstorrie, and conflict doesn't have to be, "You dirty elf, get the feck out before I run ya through!" either.  Conflict can be dirty looks and sneers, whispers behind backs and 'accidental' spills on the target of your dislike.

[jhunter]

Heheh yeah, which reminds me wasn't there a discussion a while back about being able to pour liquids on people Spawnloser?

[Akaramu]

By automatically disdaining all elementalists, you as a regular person are reducing your chances of fun RP, and also restricting the RP elementalist PCs can have with you! Please bear that in mind. It should not be a given that all elementalists are to be hated, as quite a few PCs seem to be doing these days.

Folks, elementalists are like any other humanoid - if you as a PC have a pre-ascertained hatred or dislike towards them, you are doing yourself as well as other elementalist PCs gross injustice!

As always, I have to very much disagree with AC on this subject. And I hate to disagree with AC.  :wink:

Why is disdaining an elementalist cheating them out of fun RP experiences? Disdaining someone IS a fun roleplay experience for them, or should be, if they belong to one of the 'outsider' groups of Zalanthas. People who play magickers should EXPECT to be shunned, just like elves should expect to be distrusted, and mindbenders should expect the worst if they dont keep their powers VERY secret.

I agree that just simply ignoring someone isnt very fun for them. A few emotes of HOW they are ignored can be a fun experience, as well as sneering, and suspicious glances. And realistically, magickers DESERVE to be shunned. I'm sure most living people in both city-states remember the events of the last HRPT. *shudder*

Out of my 6 characters so far, 3 were elementalists. I've had a very good time with all of them, and sometimes wished MORE PCs would express obvious anxiety or hatred towards my magickers (without necessarily plotting to kill them). Besides, there is always the option of going ungemmed - there should be some temptation behind the risk of doing this.

[Angela Christine]

By automatically disdaining all elementalists, you as a regular person are reducing your chances of fun RP, and also restricting the RP elementalist PCs can have with you! Please bear that in mind. It should not be a given that all elementalists are to be hated, as quite a few PCs seem to be doing these days.

Folks, elementalists are like any other humanoid - if you as a PC have a pre-ascertained hatred or dislike towards them, you are doing yourself as well as other elementalist PCs gross injustice!

As always, I have to very much disagree with AC on this subject. And I hate to disagree with AC.  :wink:

You missed my little joke, I suppose it was a very little joke. In the bits between the ***s I took a bunch of the pro-elf posts and did a search/replace, exchanging elfy words for elementalist references.  My point being that in both cases the people are somewhat shunned by society, and that it is hard to roleplay this shunning.  Often, in both cases, people default to either ignoring or attempting to kill the undesirable individuals.  Ignoring is a kind of roleplay, I suppose, but interactive roleplay is better.

So how does one roleplay out distrust, suspicion and fear without simply ignoring or killing the person you distrust?  The answer to that question would be useful for dealing with elves, elementalists, wild muls and other undesirables.


AC

[Krath]

All my PCs will hate elves and never have a reason to trust them. Why should they if the documentation
clearly states they are hated and not trusted? If I am playing an elf and they are not part of my tribe
I am going to trust them as much as a human would an elf, until I give them the "tests".

[Callisto]

Consider this, if you will : There will always be quite a few elven PCs who twink out, and abuse their skills to steal, PK or inflict other types of elven nastiness beyond reason.

Fixed for sad truth.

[sarahjc]

Is that even twinking?? I mean isn't that what elves do.. I have never played an elf.. Mostly due to what Mansa said, I don't know enough about the tribes or elven culture to do a good job.  However I've played almost all my PC's as basically untrusting of elves and sometimes if it was a particularly arrogant elf, a bit hateful, but mostly just untrusting. Why?? cause they are sneaky thieving bastards with hidden agendas.  There have been times where I have had to be nice an elf, but only to gain something and only on a superficial level.

I mean the doc's basically say that being an elf, you are a wheeler dealer type, shifty and cunning. It's in your blood, those are not admired qualities in a person. Unless perhaps to another elf.

[Pantoufle]

I haven't had time to read any of the replies here yet, so this may have already been said.

Elves should be discriminated, yes, but I think some people may misinterpret discrimination.  By my understanding there aren't any attempts at ethnic cleansing.  Most elves may be prevented from gaining employment on various (human) levels, but then again ... most elves don't want employment from said individuals, prefering to rely on their tribe or family as well as their elven cunning.  So they shouldn't be hated outright (unless, maybe, you're a noble), just disliked and distrusted.

Furthermore, elves can offer merchandise unavailable on many other markets (this is actually reflected with the code in more than one area of the game).  If you want to get your hands on certain goods, you have no choice but to deal with an elf.  So you can go ahead and hate all elves until you are blue in the face, they still have a service to offer and are therefore useful.  When I vacationed in Turkey last summer I wanted to take home one of those fancy oriental-style carpets, and this required haggling with a salesman in the bazaar.  I knew he was a thief, I knew he was trying to scam me, but that didn't stop me from haggling with the fellow because I wanted his goddam rug!  See what I mean?

[Bestatte]

Awesome example, Pantoufle! Dealing with elves is just like that - dealing with a trader in a market that promotes negotiating prices and scams. You -know- you want something that elf has, or offers. Whether it's spying because you know he's really good at keeping hidden in dark corners where the important people hang out, or getting interesting things from some obscure trading post far from your reach, or killing that pesky dwarf, etc. etc.

At some point or another, every PC will have reason to interact with an elf. There's just too many of them to think otherwise. So sure - hate on, if your character -would- hate. But alienating the second most populous race in the entire known world is cutting off your nose to spite your face. You don't have to make up reasons to want to kill them, and you don't have to make up reasons to interact with them on a less hostile basis. You need only go to the docs, and the justifications for BOTH are clearly laid out.

And anyone who thinks that "ANYONE" who will trust an elf is a moron - should read the docs, or even find out IC why someone WOULD trust an elf. Hint: Depends on what you're trusting them to do.

[sarahjc]

Agreed, one of my past PC's had to deal with the filthy scum on a daily basis, in fact looked to deal with them. That did not stop her from hating them, just not to their faces. I mean, yes, nobody is wiping out the elves, but I can understand backhanded comments and looks of disapproval in high end places and from city big wigs. They should be thought of as sneaky and dishonest.

[Bogre]

Maybe your angry because your a dirty armor-wearing sweaty bloodied grungy breed in a fine eating establishment, and people tell you to leave.

[Anonymous]

I'm gonna straddle the fence a little. In the not so distant past I had a char who kept having involuntairy run-ins with a couple of elves (she tried to avoid them, they kept showing up!). At first I went with the active 'by the docs' process. 'Necks were only speaking to her because they wanted something, and Krath knows what it was. One of them followed her through the streets, and near had her jumping off a roof.. Though this was before she knew it was an elf, she wasn't sticking around to find out who was chasing her. Turns out he wanted a spy. If she hadn't been such a chicken and one of those (ugh) -honest- people, woulda been great RP. But she didn't trust that elf as far as she could spit.

The other elf, never did figure out what he wanted besides a cheap meal and a free grope. Always seemed to show up around the time she was cooking, and demand and/or swipe food. Nothing else, that I noticed. He teased her, copped a feel, filched some food, all went on their merry way. Yet she actually got used to/expected it, and found said elf entirely more tollerable than the other. Even though the other would've paid her hefty sums, while the latter was taking her dinner and feeling her up. But aside from the ass-obsessesion, it was sort of reminiscent of the kid in the cartoon, stealing the fresh baked pie off a window-sil.

So I'll agree with whoever all said it, there may be an IC reason for the tollerance, and even quirky sorts of understanding/friendships.. And an IC reason for the sheer dislike. I managed to have both cases, in a single character.
:roll:  :wink:

[jmordetsky]

I discriminate against the players who actually chose to play elves as well as the elves themselves. Anyone who actually wants to play an elf has to have something innately wrong with them. If I met them in real life I probably wouldn't hang out with them. So, I don't RP with them either.

EDIT: Dwarves as well.

[proxie]

Yeah, elves are distrusted.

But, half elves...wow. Talk about playing that kid in high school that everybody pushed around or ignored if you were lucky. Playing a half elf that didn't pretend to be human or elf had to have been the most draining rp at times. The sheer shunning of this pc was great to watch.

Next one though, I think I'll play one that does pretend and see how many people use the assess -v command and act on what it says.

Muahahahaha  :wink:

[Seeker]

Other humans - neutral feelings
Half-giants - neutral feelings
Dwarves and half-elves - neutral to wary feelings
Muls - mostly ignored - too low on the social rung - like slaves
Elves - inherent alertness - but still on talking terms
Militia - respectful distance
Nobility - respectful distance - not to be approached unless called upon
Templarate - respectful fear
Magickers - fear - not to be approached usually (kill on sight in some parts of the Known World)
Citizens of other city-states - contempt to slight hatred
Raiders, Gith, Halflings - Kill on sight
Mindbenders, defilers, rapists, murderers - extreme hatred, hunted to exclusion
Muk and Tek - extreme fear - high possibility of loosing control over personal excretory functions

Maybe shift this around some?  Change the rankings a bit?


Other humans - neutral feelings
Dwarves - neutral to frustration at obstinance
Militia -  gratitude, repect, fear, repressed resentment.
Half-giants - concerned caution at all times.
Humans with the wrong accent - suspicion
Elves - distrust, prejudice.
Half-elves - reproachful distain.
Muls - extreme caution, terror at unleashing that murderous mul-rage.
Elementalists - South.
Known active murders/rapists/bloody-handed raiders.
Flesh-eating monsters of the wilds standing before you.
Nobility - envy, awe.
Flesh-eating monsters of the wilds that are chewing on you.
Templarate - respectful, oppressing terror and awe.
Elementalists - North  
Mindbenders, defilers - extreme hatred, hunted to exclusion
Muk and Tek - extreme fear - high possibility of loosing control over personal excretory functions


Seeker

[Dracul]

If we saw gith or halfing...we'd kill them on sight....

If we had a big enough group....we'd beat down elves...then piss on them.


Theres a difference of porportions there.  
Note: I play mainly elves.