Sexism

[Bebop]

Okay, I wanted to be careful how I worded all of this because I don't want this to come off as whiny, or "typical" or pissy.  But I have an issue with this and I don't communicate with many of you outside of the GDB, but there are a select few I do and it would seem I'm not alone on the issue.  So I don't think it's just me.

Sexism is not supposed to be in game in Armageddon.  And I would prefer it not to be on the GDB personally, but hey we live in the real world and sexism still exists.  Let me snap in a quick note - I don't want this thread to become about real life sexism because I want this discussion to be non-flammatory, real, and productive to the GAME and maybe the Arm community.  If you want to start a post about real life sexism as a whole post it in the OOC Chatter or something but this is not what this thread is about.

Now we can debate whether sexism is in game, and I know it is not encountered with every characters, it's not.  Also there are many IG factors that have to be taken into consideration but I will try to list things that are rather blatant, at least in my eyes.  But the point is mainly that it should not exist at all.  Let me give you some examples of what I have experienced in game and somewhat in the community as a whole.

----"I don't have time for your woman chatter."  The character this was told to was a ranger, combat character that could kill a decent amount of creatures, rugged whatever.  Not catty character etc etc.  The point is despite her IG equality to a man she was basically told not to chatter like a woman.  I don't find this appropriate because it's a comment I feel puts women under thumb.  There is no difference between man and woman IG - so While: "I don't have time for your chatter." Would have been appropriate, I don't think trying to differentiate between women's chatter and men's chatter is.  Not a big deal right?  But it's the underlying idea.  As for "such and such will make a man out of you."  The way I see it when I hear this in game is that there is no social difference between men and women so man should not be trying to achieve some higher nobility idealism of MANHOOD!  In Zalanthas what makes you a man is your penis, or at least the way I see it.  You don't see women walking around saying this will make a WOMAN out of you.  I have played in merc groups like the Byn where my character is sensible in combat, intelligent and going along for the ride and it irks the crap out of me to have someone baby me by saying things like "Ladies first."  Or the unit will make a man out of you!  Then what will the unit make out of a woman?  Women can play rugged characters too.  I know this is supported by the IMMs I have seen IMM ran female leaders and female NPCs in combat training centers, but when playing with others is when I'm experiencing this.  Once again, not such a big deal - but it's the underlying idea and it's real life ideals of "what a man is" crossing over into Zalanthas.  If you want to play a rugged "manly man" I've got no qualms with that, play whatever you want - but I would just hope people would be more conscious of the differences they are placing between men and women when there should be done in Zalanthas other then variation in their genitals - to be blunt.

----"Quirri quarrels"  Someone coined this to basically substitute for a cat fight.  Basically undermining women fighting on Armageddon.  While this fight that I experienced may have been totally a legitimate fight, maybe something dark and underlying in death and deception a potential very indepth plot I feel it was undermined by someone labeling it off as "a cat fight."  Once again - frustrating and I don't think it's appropriate.  That's a real world term used to refer to what some may see as "typical petty woman behavior" and I'm sad to see it carry over into Zalanthas.

----"F-Me PCs"  While I think that Sanvean covered this in the last thread, so "tastefully" dedicated to F-me PCs, I still think that mindset is still there with our players.  (Which by the way, if this wasn't a problem that thread would have never even existed)  Just because someone looks good because they don't want to play a character maimed by scars doesn't mean that you should not be wary of them or immediately have an OOC feeling that they are incapable of being a respected character even in combat prowess.  And I also feel that this term is mostly targeted towards women even though there are plenty of men that play that perfect, rugged Fabio so and so's.  I know that mindset is still there because even when I play combat oriented women, or at least women that can handle a blade somewhat, I still have man offering to treat me like a fluffy little girl.  While I'm not saying mates shouldn't be protective of their women or whatever, I still find it frustrating when I'm wearing sheaths and a scimitar over my back and I have some man ask me if he needs to accompany me around the city while I'm in the north talking to a southron that may or may not be suspicious.  Despite the visibility of her weapons it is assumed because she is a women she might be able to handle herself or her own affairs?  And this isn't the only time I've seen this happen.

----Combat oriented women.  They exist, and so many times I have seen this with my characters, that despite playing my character stoically that can keep to herself and take care of herself combat wise (someone who is NOT petty in the last).  If I am an underling and any kind of concern or clash with another underling occurs my concerns however real and legitimate they maybe are dismissed in some kind of peer mediation or whatever and basically ignored.  I have left two clans now because of this.  It basically goes something like this.

   

Female Combat Character - There's a real military problem here, I know what I'm saying sir, because I have X and Y experience.
   Other Character - I don't like her for so and so reasons.
   Leader Character - Alright let's do peer mediation for you two.
   Female Combat Character - But there's really a threat that I think we should discuss privately.
   Leader Character - Oh you two with your quirri quarrels now I want you two to stop fighting and just go do your jobs.
   Female Combat Character - But sir, there's REALLY a threat that you should know about. My experience...
   Leader Character- I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ONE MORE WORD I HAVE THINGS TO DO,  NOW BE OFF.

   Male Combat Character - There's a real military problem here, I know what I'm saying sir, because I have X and Y experience.
   Other Character - I don't like him for so and so reasons.  But I expect a man to act stoic and such so I guess it's really not as big a deal as when that female combat character snubbed me how dare she.
   Leader Character - Alright Male Combat Character, let's go sit down and talk about what you have to say so I can take it seriously and act on it.  And then maybe I will deal with this quarrel between you and Other Character if it is necessary.
   Male Combat Character - Yes sir.
   Leader Character - You are so stoic and take your job so seriously, I really respect you.
   Male Combat Character - Just doing my job, sir.  My father taught me what it meant to be a man I don't have time for petty woman chatter, squabbles.
   Female Combat Character (peeking her head in the door) But I can't help it that the Other Character was being petty, I was going to relay the same information and ...
   Leader Character:  GET OUT OF HERE, I TOLD YOU I'VE HAD ENOUGH WITH THIS QUARRELING I'M TALKING TO THE MALE COMBAT CHARACTER.
   Female Combat Character -  But I was just trying to relay the information privately I didn't want to relay it in front of the Other Character because that would not be professional it didn't have anything to do with her pettiness I can't help that she started it and...
   Leader Character - YOU ARE BOTH WOMEN FIGHTING THEREFORE WHAT YOU SAY MUST BE NOT ME LEGITIMATE I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ONE MORE WORD ABOUT OTHER CHARACTER!
   Female Combat Character - But I only mentioned her to explain...
   Leader Character - NO OBVIOUSLY YOU MUST BE JUST TRYING TO GET HER IN TROUBLE AND WHAT YOU SAY HAS NO REAL MILITARISTIC VALUE EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY NOW GO!
   Male Combat Character (sitting back in his chair with an understanding smile) Women and their quirri quarrels...

Okay so maybe that's a little exaggerated but that's the gist of it.  And I've experience two scenarios which that little scene was based off of.  Of course there are so many IG factors that it's not logical to go make a complaint every time I think or feel or see something like this happen.  It has to start with the players that make up the world so basically I am asking that people please check their attitudes towards woman at the Zalanthan door.

I feel that is much harder for a women to gain a military standing in game and when she does to be taken seriously in that standing.  There have been some great women PC leaders and I know the ratio as far as players, there are less woman which ultimately means less woman in leadership, I know there are IC and OOC factors I know that.  But still I think when a female PC does come along that wants to be taken seriously, despite her efforts it is difficult to compete for a position against a male simply because she is a female.  In not all scenarios but some scenarios.

----"Jihea and Lirathu"  Now I don't mean to make waves but I have a problem with the fact that the dainty women in white - I won't try to be to specific about things are all women and the warrior Jihea men that possibly can come through the military House Lykase and train bad ass soldiers are all men.  Not that the Lirathu Order Faithfuls can't be terrifying I just find it frustrating that they all must be women and all the Jihea must be men.  Recently there was a Jihea position open and I didn't even want to app for it because I would have to play a male.  While as a woman I maybe able to play a Jihea I still would have to play a male character, and I really don't like playing males.  Plus it closes the door to having a variety of characters in either Order.  I also just wonder why the Jihea males are warriors and the Lirathu order are all women in pallid silks that are not into physical prowess.

Many leaders in Zalanthas: Male.

Muk and Tek - Male
This was supposed to be SAND Lord of Red Storm - Male
CENSORED - Male
Luirs - Male
I know the Blackwing tribe made blackwing but I'm pretty sure the leader is also male.

Now I am not trying to blame anyone or the men more than the women.  Because I'm not, I've had just as much frustration playing stoic women where other prissy women start in etc etc.  What I would just like to do is make people aware that I feel like there is still a hefty amount of sexism in game.  I haven't encountered this with every character or all of the time, and it's certainly not something backed up by code or by the IMMs.  But I -am- encountering it regularly.  Sure I can try to make some badass woman that makes waves IG and it HAS happened, and making waves IG is difficult for anyone to do man or woman.  My point is this - there IS still sexism IG coming over (however mildly) from the mindsets of the players.  Some people I know don't intentionally do it, but I think they are still doing it.  And I just want to make this post to make other people aware or at least get talking on the topic.  Maybe some people don't think this exists at or haven't encountered it, but I for one think it's there.

EDITED BY HALASTER - to remove the names of active, live PC's.

[Naiona]

---- The following is PERSONAL OPINION and not staff policy  ----

While I am in complete agreement to much of what you had to say in your post, I don't have too much problem with the term 'women's chatter'.  Seriously, I'd just toss back a comment about 'men's whining' or 'male mood swings' and let it go at that.  If they had implied that women's chatter was somehow below men's chatter, then they'd be incorrect and really just looking to get stabbed in the back by the women they were deriding.

You were incorrect on one point, and that is the Jihae/Lirathu thing.  I think that many players don't realize that in Tuluk, the women run the show.  Lirathans are basically 'in charge' of the city and the Jihaens defer to them in most matters.  Also, while they make look dainty or frail to you - I will only say that appearances can be quite deceiving and leave it at that.  Lirathans represent a signifigant and strong female presence in the game and how ever things may appear - they are templars - and all templars are scary, scary people when it comes down to it.  While it isn't openly spoken of, it is well known in Tuluk that the Lirathans and the Inquisition are responsible for frightening, secretive and final vanishings.  A cross stare from a Lirathan of rank should be enough to make most people consider a change of address, a new name, a career in a remote village...

[Delirium]

It is harder for a woman to be taken seriously in a military role, but it's not as difficult as you seem to make it out to be.

It shouldn't be harder, though, I agree.

To play devil's advocate, prowess and trust from your comrades comes from proving yourself, so don't be too quick to assume it's because you're a female.  That may be a factor, but frankly, being a strategy and combat code terror takes time, preparation, effort, fast reading, and a little innate talent.  

Read some Sun-Tzu, set up some triggers to highlight important combat events, learn to skim the spam for the important stuff, work your reaction times, figure out good strategies that incorporate the nuances of the combat code.

Quirri-fighting and 'tok fighting I don't see as too out of place, personally, as long as it's describing the TYPE of fight and not the genders involved.  Of course, I'd refer to a woman as a 'tok just as easily as I would a quirri.

Frankly, if you play the American stereotype of a sexy, feminine woman, expect people to be predisposed to treating you like the stereotype of a sexy, feminine woman, no matter what role you're in.  If you're a rough and tumble mercenary woman, then act like one!  Snarl a little, gamble, hawk up loogies, throw punches instead of clawing faces, adjust your leggings, kick the shit off your boots as you stomp into the tavern.  In short, don't be too dainty AND expect people to take you seriously as a combat character.  You don't have to overdo it or act like a stereotypical guy, but if you're acting like a lady, people are going to treat you like a lady.  I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it's a simple fact.

(The 'you' in this post is a general 'you'.)

[LoD]

This has been discussed to death in previous threads.

:arrow: This type of behavior doesn't belong in the world of Zalanthas.
:arrow: Some RL sayings and/or beliefs still bleed through from time to time.
:arrow: Those sayings/beliefs are wrong.  It sucks.  They'll hopefully learn.

There will always be this problem as new players are introduced to the game and slowly weened off their RL perception of gender roles.  Send your example to the mud account with a log and perhaps it will warrant an email to the player making these remarks.  That would probably be a far better course of action if you expect results.

-LoD

[Zhaky]

I don't have to read all of it to totally agree with you, and I have one thing to say about it, it is bad RP if one doesn't know that men and women are equal in Zalanthas, even though Im a newb, I still try to follow this concept, and the only difference I make in persons are their physical and social status, and that doesn't iclude difference of sex

I hope that your thread will make players more aware of the sexism in ARM  

[Malifaxis]

Hello, my name is Malifaxis...

I'm male, and I'm a misogynist.

That taken into account, I would like to post on this.  I've noticed that primarily on Armageddon there isn't much sexism.  I've noticed this because I have played strong women characters... not too many of them, mind you, because damn are they tough, but I have done it.  And I've had no problem advancing, and I've had no problem advancing tactical theory.

Granted, I may be playing the sex wrong... I don't know.  I certainly hope not, I like to think myself capable.

I think what has been happening is that there have been a few players who thought "Hey... the norm is non-sexism.  Lets break the norm with this character."  And perhaps they wrote it into the background that the PC's mother and sisters all were extremely week, very frail of heart (for zalanthas) and eventually died in some pissant way like dissease or infection or something that could be seen as a 'lesser death.'  These experiences put those characters into a sexist mindset.  This is fine, this should be allowed.

However I think it may have taken off.  Perhaps that character came into close contact with a couple newbies or other PCs that belonged to possibly sexist male players.  They saw this person doing it, and thought that that was the norm instead of the exception.

I have, lately, noticed an upswing of such things... but I don't think it's as horridly widespread as you may believe.  You could, also, head up north and play a dominating white leather clad templar's disciplinary agent.  Take steps to root out those males who have balls enough to think they are better, and then snip the problem at the roots and let them live as an example.   :twisted:

Not that I'm inferring that Tulukian males have balls.

[marko]

A lot of points you make are true.  People often carry over their RL views into the game about all sorts of things.

But, I feel you aren't giving the women leaders of the game a fair shake.  

Here are some powerful females that I remember that are everything and more than what you've mentioned:

Liktith the Black (Blackrobe in Allanak)
In fact, many of the Blackrobes are female.
Elaira Fale was given domain of the Northlands after Allanak took it over.
Aquila Nenyuk was a very powerful templar.
There are more - but these ones are mentioned in the History.  

There are leaders in tribes that are female.  There are beings of exceptional power and potency that are female.

Is the split 50:50 down the middle for leadership in all the various groups?  No, I don't think it is.  But it fairly close.  Let me see, of those I know about, without revealing any detail other than male or female leadership:

Seven Females and Six Males.  Those are only the ones I know about and leadership sometimes changes so I could be wrong.  

Finally, I don't think it is fair to say that a female needs to be a buff, sword wielding terror to be equal to a male.  Many of the male leaders are not buff or warriors.  The same goes for the females.  

Is it tougher on a female military leader?  I think it is but it isn't terrible or crippling.  I remember one very strong willed woman in House Tor - she had no problems what so ever.  I would guess one's mileage varies depending on whom they are playing with.

With a majority of players being males then we can expect a majority of PC leaders to be male simply due to the numbers factor.  That part isn't sexism it is a reflection of the demographics within the game.  To fix that we need to recruit more women to play Armageddon.

[bloodfromstone]

Yes, sexism bleeds through occasionally. From my experience, it's not nearly as rampant as it is made out to be, however. A lot of times, (now I'm not targetting you with this) the characters that are treated as dainty fragile things or overemotional bickering things act or look like that, so there is nothing wrong with treating them that way. It is not that they're women, it's that they are womanly by earth standards.
The female PC I played was stronger and rougher than a lot of the men she was clanned with, and people treated her with respect in that regard. She was also emotionally unstable and overly naive, and people treated her like a child when it came down to that.
I've also played a dainty, f-me looking man, and people treated him like he looked.

This has been my experience, at least.

[Bebop]

You were incorrect on one point, and that is the Jihae/Lirathu thing.  I think that many players don't realize that in Tuluk, the women run the show.  Lirathans are basically 'in charge' of the city and the Jihaens defer to them in most matters.  Also, while they make look dainty or frail to you - I will only say that appearances can be quite deceiving and leave it at that.  Lirathans represent a signifigant and strong female presence in the game and how ever things may appear - they are templars - and all templars are scary, scary people when it comes down to it.  While it isn't openly spoken of, it is well known in Tuluk that the Lirathans and the Inquisition are responsible for frightening, secretive and final vanishings.  A cross stare from a Lirathan of rank should be enough to make most people consider a change of address, a new name, a career in a remote village...

This is of course very very true.  My main point was that I just wonder why it seems the men get to/do focus on the more militaristic, physical matters, just seems somewhat cliche to the fact that men are stronger in these areas.  It does not necessarily need to be changed, but as Naiona says, you would be mistaken if you didn't realize Lirathuans terrifying authority.  I would just hope people would not mistake that and not continue a flow of "women are weaker in physical ambition" they may or may not be in RL but in Zalanthas it's a fact that they are not weaker.  And I know that the Lirathu Order of course does have a keen involvment in militaristic strategy.

As far as what you said Delirium And I was hoping you'd post.  I do agree that if you act dainty you will and probably should be treated dainty since you are - dainty.  But what I'm refering to is those of us that choose not to act dainty yet STILL get treated like we are simple for the fact we are women.

Also like you said some research won't hurt.  Even for men.  As someone who has done some research and has  been involved with martial arts, some knife/weapon fighting etc, and various books on such matters I try to incorporate such things in my playing.  Once again the frustrating things is when you have a women who has done these things, knows her stuff and is capable being treated like she isn't and competing with a male who has done none of these things.  The male is on her level simply because she is a male while the female is working hard OOC and IC to RP and express a strong, combat capable female character.  Point bein' I don't think women should have to work harder then a male for the same position in Zalanthas.  But like you said they do.

I'm just hoping to make people conscious about this issue, even if it has  been discussed before.  I'm happy to see after such a short time into this thread womenz that know what they're talking about posting their stuff in regards to this issue.

[Bebop]

A lot of points you make are true.  People often carry over their RL views into the game about all sorts of things.

But, I feel you aren't giving the women leaders of the game a fair shake.  

..Finally, I don't think it is fair to say that a female needs to be a buff, sword wielding terror to be equal to a male.  Many of the male leaders are not buff or warriors.  The same goes for the females.

I just mostly focused on this from my experience, because I don't play many non sword wielding women I guess.  But the rule applies generally.  And like I said in my post above.

-There have been great PC female leaders.
- And because there are more men play their inevitably will be more male leaders.
-Also as you said, it just depends on who you are interacting with.  If they have some sexism IRL it will likely bleed over even if unintentionally.

The characters that are treated as dainty fragile things or overemotional bickering things act or look like that, so there is nothing wrong with treating them that way. It is not that they're women, it's that they are womanly by earth standards.

I agree which is why I'm not blaming men more then women.  If you are dainty, you are dainty.  Some woman DO play daintly characters, that is just a fact.  And sometimes these women characters cause petty squabbles but I'm hoping people will realize they need to differentiate between the women that are making these squabbles and the women that are adept.  Just like in that little "scene" I somewhat experienced.  One woman was being petty, one knew what she was saying but she was automatically dismissed right along with the other petty one like it was some "typical" cat fight.  Even though she knew her stuff.  There are many IC and OOC factors to take into account.  But I think people should be careful like a said not to confuse one woman with another, they are not all the same.

[UnderSeven]

Just to say, Blackwing has been a mixed bag in the past of leaders male and females, blackwing is NOT a sexist group, seriously, unless you played in the group, I ask that they not be used as an example to say sexism exists on arm.  It's just wrong.

That having been said, I don't actually disagree with Bebop entirly, I just felt I had to defend Blackwing having played so so so much Blackwing.

I think it is a lot to ask sometimes for rpers to step out of their life and see things differently.  I think the best thing is to set examples.  If you see someone in game doing it, try too lead by example.  That is how I think people can help fellow rpers improve.

[Gorilla J]

If you really hate it prove them wrong.  Don't throw a hissy fit over it like a woman.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I don't really agree with this. Even if Zalanthanian society in general isn't sexist, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who are. Who knows, maybe the PC that talked about "women chatter" just happened to grow up with five excessively yappy sisters and bases his opinion of women on that. Maybe he's been screwed over in the mating game once too often and has become bitter.

Like someone else suggested, instead of being thin-skinned about it, just snap back.

As for military women and respect, it's really simple. If your character wants respect in a group of men, have her challenge the top dog and kick his ass. If she can do that, she'll find they're willing to take her lead (so long as she isn't cruel or obnoxious to go with it). If she can't, she isn't ready to be the leader yet.

[Larrath]

The problem isn't with characters discriminating against women.
The problem is that some players fail to realize that discriminating against women is very rare and unusual in the Known World.

It's just like playing an elf that wants to ride a kank - it's fine as part of a realistic concept, but it's important that the player understands just how unusual riding a kank would be.

[Marauder Moe]

The problem is, though, that a lot of these people who play the sexist exception also play as though they don't know that they're a rare exception.

[Bebop]

I think also that you have to realize, respect is more then just beating someone's ass.  Just because someone cant do that doesn't mean they aren't entitled to respect and often times even if you do that someone who may feel bested by a woman will she be sour, and still not show any kind of respect.  It's more complicated then that.

I also agree that you should lead by example, which I try to do in playing PCs that aren't petty, and rugged female characters.  But the thing is there is only so much you can do when the leader of your clan puts you down because you're a woman.  You can't force him to promote you.

It could be IC like others were saying but like Larrath said, it should be rare like an elf riding a kank.  And it has been far to common in my eyes for that excuse to be consistant.

[Cale_Knight]

The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.

If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.

Just because sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas doesn't mean that people are blind to the differences between women and men.

Characters are a result of the environment that shapes them. My PCs interact mainly with women who are exactly like women in real life, and so it's no surprise at all that they think of them as dainty, usually pretty creatures.

When my PCs do meet a stronger, more "manly" woman, they have absolutely no problem accepting that, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Normally I hate, hate, hate when people say "be the change you want to see," but in this case it fits.

If you don't want to be treated like a woman, don't be so womanly.

[Sanvean]

This has been discussed to death in previous threads.

I think it's a useful reminder, particularly for players new to these boards.  Certainly it's not the only thread that comes up over and over again.  Thank you for taking the time to write that up, Bebop.

[SpyGuy]

To try to respond to Bebop, I've never experienced this.  Then again that's because I only play male PCs (rugged and effeminate types but still male).  What I can say though is that if you want to be treated equally as a rugged character then act rugged.  That means if someone starts insulting you because of your gender then you can certainly get right in their face about theirs.  Don't let other PCs, especially those playing a sexist, discriminate your PCs.  Discriminate right back to them.

I personally feel it's misguided to ignore all differences and otherness between the sexes in game.  The crux of the matter though is that women are equal to men in all forms on Zalanthas.  There is absolutely -no- institutionalized sexism IC except what players bring in.  So if a male PC treats you like in a derogatory manner, get back in his face about it and tell him you've got more prowess in your *insert body part* than he'll ever have.  Ask them if they're afraid of women because their mommy beat them too hard when they were younger.

But just quickly to list a few reasons why you may not be respected in combat which apply to male and female PCs:
-Not enough experience with the unit
-Your PC isn't assertive enough, hence if they get pushed around by other members of the company without standing up for themselves then a leader may not take them seriously
-Other IC factors to varied to list

So as I said at first, I have limited experience with this because I only play male PCs.  And I know people do bring in all sorts of sexism into the game.  My best suggestion is to try not to take it to heart and to roleplay that the sexist is the exception and you have nothing to be afraid of.

[Gimfalisette]

The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.

If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.

Just because sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas doesn't mean that people are blind to the differences between women and men.

Characters are a result of the environment that shapes them. My PCs interact mainly with women who are exactly like women in real life, and so it's no surprise at all that they think of them as dainty, usually pretty creatures.

When my PCs do meet a stronger, more "manly" woman, they have absolutely no problem accepting that, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Normally I hate, hate, hate when people say "be the change you want to see," but in this case it fits.

If you don't want to be treated like a woman, don't be so womanly.

It's not a question of "being womanly" or not. Bebop didn't say anything about wanting her female characters to be treated like they are actually male characters. Her whole point was that female characters are treated as less capable, less intelligent, less able to self-govern, less knowledgeable, etc. than male characters. THAT is sexism, because the fact that character A is a member of group B is being used to judge their abilities, rather than anything character A has done / can do / will do.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't really agree with this. Even if Zalanthanian society in general isn't sexist, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who are. Who knows, maybe the PC that talked about "women chatter" just happened to grow up with five excessively yappy sisters and bases his opinion of women on that. Maybe he's been screwed over in the mating game once too often and has become bitter.

Like someone else suggested, instead of being thin-skinned about it, just snap back.

When an exception to the rule is really nothing more a miraculous replication of a real-life attitude that has no place on Zalanthas, then that doesn't change the fact that it has no place on Zalanthas.

As for military women and respect, it's really simple. If your character wants respect in a group of men, have her challenge the top dog and kick his ass. If she can do that, she'll find they're willing to take her lead (so long as she isn't cruel or obnoxious to go with it). If she can't, she isn't ready to be the leader yet.

I would hope that both men and women leaders would require better qualities than simply high combat statistics to survive in their position.

On the subject of the Lirathuan order:  Bebob, what your posts fail to realize is that in Zalanthas, the person that doesn't have to get their hands dirty is the person who has the real power.  In Tuluk, these people are the Lirathuan templars.  The fact that Jihaen templars are in charge of military matters isn't a symbol of their male strength and virility, it's an indication that they have recieved the short end of the stick in the social and political setup of Tuluk.

However, I do agree with what you are saying about northern templars.  I don't think anybody should be forced to play a PC of a certain gender to have fun on Armageddon, and I wish the Tuluki templarate wasn't set up in this matter.

In general, good post, and thank you for bringing awareness to this subject.  I always read posts like these and hope they will assist me in reducing any sexist beliefs I may have both in Armageddon and in real life.

[Intrepid]

It is a rather self-defeating purpose if you continuously make excuses for sexism in
gameplay.  It just means that, more and more often, actual women Armers like
myself will choose to play male characters so the balance is kept.  It has nothing to
do with how much butt you kick or what your character appears to be.  Having just
ended a male pc not too long ago, I can tell you I was treated very differently and
not underestimated regardless of what I did and how I looked.  Neither was the
male pc I played previous to that, and these were very different characters.

If a male pc is given the benefit of the doubt and the female pc is not when it's the
exact same situation, it's sexism.  It's a situation where one gender is being treated
differently from the other gender for no other reason than gender.

All the male players, especially the misogynists, could benefit from playing a
long-lived female pc for a while and not telling anyone who or what they're currently
playing.

Myself, I'll just end up playing more and more male pcs to avoid the lack of realism
I have to experience from a select number of players unable to fully immerse
themselves into the setting.

[Gorilla J]

Myself, I'll just end up playing more and more male pcs to avoid the lack of realism I have to experience from a select number of players unable to fully immerse themselves into the setting.

Sexism is what's realistic.  Men and women are different.  Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine.  Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.

As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man.  It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.

[palomar]

Sexism is what's realistic.  Men and women are different.  Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine.  Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.

As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man.  It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.

No, sexism is not realistic behavior (in most situations) when playing a character in the world of Zalanthas. The only differences between men and women in Zalanthas are the genitals and the mammary glands. They're equally strong, equally smart, there is no social gender since no sex has oppressed another like in RL. I'm not a fanatic feminist radical, but I've read my share of literature on the topic.

I, and I'm a male, like the fact that there is supposed to be no sexism in Zalanthas. It's not only a catering to female players' needs.

The players are probably not unrealistic, but they portray their characters in an unrealistic way if the do behave sexist for no other reason than RL ideals/biases/prejudices seeping into the game.

IMO your post is close to trolling, Gorilla J.

(Edited for minor spelling)

[Anonymous kank with wings]

As for military women and respect, it's really simple. If your character wants respect in a group of men, have her challenge the top dog and kick his ass. If she can do that, she'll find they're willing to take her lead (so long as she isn't cruel or obnoxious to go with it). If she can't, she isn't ready to be the leader yet.

I would hope that both men and women leaders would require better qualities than simply high combat statistics to survive in their position.

Yes, you'd hope. But human beings have never been good at existing on the intellectual plane. Why else do people offer to settle an argument with violence so often? In the end, it takes a good butt kicking for a visceral sinking in.