Sexism

[Intrepid]

What about if they treated your differently for being a woman?  Go ahead, try it
sometime.

Let them.  I'd find it just as amusing.

Talk is cheap, monkey man.

[Gorilla J]

What about if they treated your differently for being a woman?  Go ahead, try it
sometime.

Let them.  I'd find it just as amusing.

Talk is cheap, monkey man.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to retire my character just so you can see whether or not I'd be bothered by it.  Should he ever die, though, I'll be sure to let you know so you can come and discriminate my new woman.

[Intrepid]

Unfortunately, I'm not going to retire my character just so you can see whether or not I'd be bothered by it.  Should he ever die, though, I'll be sure to let you know so you can come and discriminate my new woman.

I knew you'd back out.

[Gorilla J]

Unfortunately, I'm not going to retire my character just so you can see whether or not I'd be bothered by it.  Should he ever die, though, I'll be sure to let you know so you can come and discriminate my new woman.

I knew you'd back out.

Yes, backing out.  That's exactly what I'm doing.  Intrepid FTW

[Delirium]

Cute back & forth aside.. the point is not whether you'd enjoy it, the point is that it has no place in Zalanthas.

Discriminate all you like for any multitude of IC reasons that fit your character, but not because of gender.

The 'exception' sets a bad example to those new players who look to more established roleplayers for guidance.

[Intrepid]

Cute back & forth aside.. the point is not whether you'd enjoy it, the point is that it has no place in Zalanthas.

Discriminate all you like for any multitude of IC reasons that fit your character, but not because of gender.

The 'exception' sets a bad example to those new players who look to more established roleplayers for guidance.

I wasn't trying to be cute, but sometimes you just have to tease someone when they're
insulting you at every turn.  Fittingly enough, I'm more disturbed by the idea that
several people on here are trying to rationalize why they can't play accordingly to
the provided setting information than I am the notion that they may be hopelessly
sexist in rl.

[MorganChaos]

Bebop...*sigh*

First off, if you're going to post a log, post a log. Not your own biased fantasy version.

Second off, I did actually read your entire post, but I bet a lot of people didn't. Condense, girl, condense!

Third off, I didn't read the whole thread, just most of the first page.

I've played a male PC who was tiny. Like, 65 inches, 6 ten-stone. And he looked it. Petite was in his sdesc and his boyfriend (who was quite large (not like that, pervs, he was just at the top range for height and weight)) nearly broke him a couple times. Most people thought he was 16, maximum, more like 14, but he was 20. There was something much more noticeable he was that he got treated as, but he also got treated weak and unable to fend for himself. Which he also was, cause I played him that way. I played him as a quiet little boy who hated leaving the city, didn't like kanks, and could break his hips if his boyfriend wasn't careful. He wasn't really more than he seemed, if you count weaponscrafter who had little to no knowledge of what to do with weapons as more than he seems.

I've also played petite females. One was a badass social climber who started out psychotically shy and a little bit sociopathic, and then learned how to take care of herself. She got treated as slightly thick (which she was) but a force to be reckoned with (which she also was). She was more than she seemed, because while you were chatting with her or paying attention to comething else she'd snatch your coinpurse right off your belt and keep walking.

Another was a carefree, funloving, very Aphrodite-type character (beautiful, indulgent, had a -lot- of sex, etc) who lasted less than a hundred days and had an awesome IC death but boy was she fun. She was treated like someone who was going to rip your clothes off and feed you Zharal/(I forget the name of the male aphrodisiac) at her first opportunity...cause she was.

I also had a fairly petite and not-rough male, but he was pretty tall so I won't call him petite (yay breeds!). Slim and young were both in his sdesc. He was a flamboyant Trvaling Bard (always capitalized, of course) who was friendly and sweet and sharp-witted (or alternately quiet and gentle and withdrawn), but who could kick the ass of any nasty at least long enough to get away, and hunted his dinner down more than once. He never got into real combat with a PC, but I'm sure he wouldn't have come off terribly.

You can start reading again. This is the important bit of the post.

I'm saying, sometimes sexism happens. It's much more about the character. How you play makes a big difference. If you have knowledge and expertise, cool. Show that by going around and using your knowledge and expertise. Do not show that by going around and saying "I have knowledge and expertise!" Because people think you're lying. "If she has to say it it must not be true." If you don't want to be seen as petty, don't bring your small arguments to your superior, and don't even talk to your superior with the person in the room if there's a small argument, because of course, if the other person says anything, superior automatically assumes that's what you want to talk about and dismisses whatever you say. When another person comes along and says the same things as you've said, superior can no longer ignore it. It so happens that the second person was male and the first was female? Eh, okay. Same diff. As for being dismissed a second time, maybe they'd rather hear it from this person, because they have more knowledge, they can say it better, they're better trusted or liked, or they outrank you. Any one of these reasons could cause the scenario you outlined at the start, Bebop. Or what I think the scenario was, since you did post a fantasy, and not a log.

[ShaLeah]

Please do not forget that while sexism does not exist on Zalanthas hatred, discrimination and prejudice do.  It is typical of a Zalanthan to openly scorn that which he dislikes.  

That said:

I believe the majority of the blame for this particular, real world seepage is that women characters stay in the same roles.  Most of the females in game have the same (delicate/in city/indoor) jobs and are dressed in a feminine manner, yes, even you warrior types with your earrings and your silk scarves around your ankles and your chokers and rings.  Women characters seem to live longer than male characters, could that be because of the people behind the characters?

Unfortunately, if you're playing a female character and are the toughest baddest, roughest mekillot slayer roaming the not-so-free sands you're still gonna be called a bitch.  A whore on Zalanthas still meets with raised eyebrows.  Women still act catty towards other women.  Complaining about it, while it may bring light to the trickle of RW into GW and might make a few people reconsider their characters actions it will still continue until.

Is there a solution?  I don't think so, not until we the players change.  

We could try not playing the stereotypical female roles.  If you make a burglar in hopes that you'll steal from a templar for the love of Tek don't become his fucking aide.  And if you're gonna use your sexuality/looks/delicacy to worm your way to the top don't complain about people calling you a whore.


ShaLeah
-who thinks the only way to make the world used to something it to make it happen for yourself... even if it means over and over and over ad nauseum again...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wish that we were not so gung-ho about equality herebetween the sexes. The reason sexism will always exist in the real world is because we will always feel alien to the opposite sex, because there are differences not withstanding physically. Emotionally, psychologically, even chemically, we are different.

In the Wheel of Time novels and a few others, women have the upper hand in the world. In many fantasy worlds, men have the upper hand. It varies from world to world, but in every series of books, just about, there is sexism, and not because one sex is weaker than the other, but because they are different in other ways. In many fantasy worlds, women let the brawn do the brawn, and women do the thinking.

I am perfectly aware of the policies here about sexism, and I do my level best to adapt to them and play like I should. But every time something happens that people even suspect is sexism, one of these threads pop up, and we jump right back into the rampant confusion and discussion about which sexism is ok and which isn't. If we were not so bloody focused on preventing it, our roles would probably be a little more fun.

I do not like being told that I am sexist for thinking of that dainty little girl as pretty. I don't think it's really fair or accurate. I don't think that a woman who thinks a man can't do the job should be punished, because men do tend to scheme less and run through walls more. Even in Zalanthan history there appears to be sexism. How many of the figureheads of the timeline are female?

Shit, by simple biological process, women are the caretakers of the world, here or in RL. They carry a child for 9 bleeding months, or however long they do it in Armageddon. I don't think it's wrong for either a man or a woman to be a stay-at-home parent, and for the other to earn their bread. But it is wrong, to me, when people accuse the other of sexism for happening to fall into their biological role, such as men being brawns and women being smart, the fore taking charge and the latter ducking back. And why do I say this in Armageddon, where the actual PCs might not be different at all? Because the players are different. The RW players are different from one another.

Why can't we simply say there is no standard at all, rather than hammering equality into the ground? Sexism exists on both sides of the fence, male and female, and I see no real reason it shouldn't, other than some misguided intention to make this world different. I don't feel that we should be so bleeding obsessed with it.

There is no standard at all for sexism, rather than there is no sexism. And to drive that point home, let's include more females in the History and in the Timeline.

[Intrepid]

We could try not playing the stereotypical female roles.  If you make a burglar in hopes that you'll steal from a templar for the love of Tek don't become his fucking aide.  And if you're gonna use your sexuality/looks/delicacy to worm your way to the top don't complain about people calling you a whore.

Actually, I've never played a stereotypical female role and still had to deal with
sexism from pcs.  Most of the female Armers I've known offline had a distinct
aversion to playing anything resembling the happy homemaker.

Is this something that's come up in recent years?

[bloodfromstone]

Phrases that you imply were in regards to your gender, did not fit into the situation; A la gender discrimination bleeding into an ic situation from the real world.

That's actually not what I meant at all. What I meant was hearing a phrase like "soft as a woman's hands" or something of that nature, not directly targetting a PC or anything. Just a saying that people will type in without really meaning that women are inferior or anything. It's just like when someone says sky-blue or something of that nature. I only saw a few real instances of sexism with that PC, and the majority of them were from new players.

EDITed to add: I am not saying that it doesn't happen, nor am I disregarding the trouble that anyone has had in that regard. Just stating my experience playing a female PC.

[Bebop]

Gorilla - Whether you believe women are beneath you or whether it is realistic for women to be as strong as men is irrelevent to the fact that it is Game Policy that women ARE equal to men in Zalanthas.  While it may or may not be true in the real world for Zalanthas it is true, so that women may have an equal opportunity to enjoy their characters on Armageddon as males.  Be happy for that because if it wasn't there would probably be a lot less girls here if they didn't have the chance to play combat characters if they wanted, and a bunch of guys here without girls would just be creepy You need balance.  Anyway, seriously, if you enjoy this game then you enjoy it for what it is.  And the rule is women are equal to men in this game.

Sha - I agree with you, that is why I say I don't blame one gender for this.  Women can act just as catty towards other females as men act sexist.   :?  And the only thing that will change is if the player base decides to.  That is why I hope this reminder will make people think in regards to how they treat each other

[Gorilla J]

Gorilla - Whether you believe women are beneath you or whether it is realistic for women to be as strong as men is irrelevent to the fact that it is Game Policy that women ARE equal to men in Zalanthas.  While it may or may not be true in the real world for Zalanthas it is true, so that women may have an equal opportunity to enjoy their characters on Armageddon as males.  Be happy for that because if it wasn't there would probably be a lot less girls here if they didn't have the chance to play combat characters if they wanted, and a bunch of guys here without girls would just be creepy You need balance.  Anyway, seriously, if you enjoy this game then you enjoy it for what it is.  And the rule is women are equal to men in this game.

Amazing.  You somehow picked out two things I never said and told me they didn't matter.  I do not believe women are beneath me, or that they can't be as strong; I've said they were DIFFERENT, and that is true.

[Delirium]

Well gee, if there is something wrong with being girly, then there must be something wrong with being manly.

I'm seeing a huge double-standard even from those who are claiming that sexism shouldn't exist.  Act the role, not the gender.  The problem isn't the girly girls or the manly men, it's that it's easy to forget the other types exist when they aren't as often played.  Play what you damn well want, I know I will.

Let a female character act as girly or manly as she wants, and let a male character act as manly or girly as he wants.  Don't discriminate them based on gender, discriminate them because they have funny ears or you think they're too crude for the job or they're too dainty to swing a sword.  Girl OR guy.

It does not seem that difficult to me.

[Intrepid]

It does not seem that difficult to me.

But it is that difficult for a number of people, Del.  There are people that are so
inured to this one aspect of society, so brainwashed in rl, that they'll never be able
to wrap their minds around this.  Eris once made a comment to the effect of:

Sad, really.  You guys can believe in eight foot tall humanoids with ropy, three foot
long legs, but you can't imagine men and women being treated equally.

There are right ways to play this game and wrong ways.  The people who are on this
thread rationalizing why their characters have even the slightest bit of sexism for
any reason are simply not playing the aspect, and therefore a significant portion of
the game, correctly.  As Xygax said, it is as counter to the setting as an elf-riding
kank and will always be treated that way.

The people who do this will always be on the outside of the setting looking in.

[bloodfromstone]

In retrospect, I would say my biggest run in with sexism playing a female PC is that most male employers seem to size up whether you're worth mudsexxing first and foremost. This leads to the female PC sleeping with the male leader because, hey, who's going to say no to Lord Stiffy Borsail, and then everyone says they worked for all of their power and promotions in the bed room.
Granted, I played a fairly unattractive PC, so she didn't see as much of this, but there was always a moment when being hired, introduced to other leaders, etc. Fortunately for me, most of her career was spent under an incredible female leader, who was a great example of a balance between being strong and able, but still acting like a woman instead of a man. I still love you, super-female-leader-PC.

[Intrepid]

Yeah, I notice the female pc always gets the blame when the male pc is obviously
the main source of the problem.

That said, every one of my insane, pus-oozing, drooling, mutated, ugly pcs always
seems to have been flirted with by every male pc and even some female pcs.

People mistake a verbose description for being attractive.

[Delirium]

Or good emoting.  EVERYONE knows that good emotes means great mudsex!

:roll:

[Malken]

This thread has no happy ending.

[ShaLeah]

Or good emoting.  EVERYONE knows that good emotes means great mudsex!

I soooooooooooo beg to differ :-P

[skeetdaddle]

Just like to point out something for everyone's consideration:

Why would anyone's char find a dainty person attractive in Zalanthas?

Some of you are arguing that it's okay for your char to be attracted to that type of man/woman/kank, but in a world that seems to me to be all about survival, I would think that in general the chars viewed as the most attractive would have traits that made them look hardy. Just a thought...

[Anonymous]

skeetdaddle: because they're so rare.

Anyway, I'm not really going to jump into this debate. I think the staff has said most of what I think on the matter, anyway.

But I did want to weigh in to note that, when I was in Blackwing, it was run by three very wonderful powerful female figures, who I still worship to this day. Two of them were even real OOC wimmin.

I think it's perfectly fair to use the player tool to issue a player complaint about a character's bad RP if they decide to push sexist mores into a game where sexism does not exist.

Send an unedited log. That's pretty impartial.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That depends on your class and upbringing, I think. Why would a noble want his wife to look rough? Why would a Byner want his mate to look dainty?

My point isn't that you should think this character is that, but rather that you shouldn't decide someone is being sexist because of their choice.

[ale six]

How come I always show up late to the girl threads after people like Delerium and Naiona always say exactly what I wanted to say?

In my own experience I haven't noticed any unexpected discrimination towards my characters. I played a silky fluffy aide who was treated like a weak, silky fluffy person... not because she was a woman, but because she obviously was no mercenary type. My next pc was a rough merc type, and again was treated exactly as that, the fact that she had breasts didn't seem to matter in her unit (except that a few of them would hit on her, which would be expected too.) After that I played another aide type who tried to let everyone think she was silky and fluffy, when really she wasn't. She was letting others underestimate her on purpose, because it made it that much easier to rob them blind without being suspect. In all three cases any judgements being made about my characters weren't because of their sex, but because of their lifestyle.

That's the distinction I think: sexism is bad, but judging somebody based on appearance certainly isn't. If you want to laugh at that slender, soft-skinned aide for looking weak, fine -- just remember that that should go for a male aide as well as a female one.  On the same token, if your lithe, voloptuous sex-pistol is trying to join the Byn, I would EXPECT you to get laughed at and teased for looking more like a concubine than a Byn mercenary. You could always turn this to an advantage (never underestimate the power of making someone underestimate you), but again, it isn't sexism.

[bloodfromstone]

voloptuous sex-pistol

That's one of the hottest phrases I have ever heard.