Can you think of anything -bad- about arm?..

[spawnloser]

What point is there in watching a movie when you already know the end?

Are you seriously saying there's no movies you like to see more than once?  You can know the plot of a story and still be excited to see how it plays out.

It is never again like watching it the first time.

[Agent_137]

What point is there in watching a movie when you already know the end?

Are you seriously saying there's no movies you like to see more than once?  You can know the plot of a story and still be excited to see how it plays out.

It is never again like watching it the first time.

or reading it the first time. True, true. Thats why I always read the books before I see the movie. Want the purest experience first. But then I still go back and read all the great books a few times. :mrgreen:

[jhunter]

Thanks.

[Callisto]

Gosh, he's sooo good and above the rest of us.

Enough already.

[Gesht]

- - If there's anything I have a problem with in Arm, it's the GDB.  There are three major reasons for this:

1) People tend to forget that it's damn near impossible to convey tone over the internet.  Is that smiley face and politeness a reassurance that I am speaking friendly, or am I speaking sarcastically?  Have I worded something clearly, or do I come off as a cold-blooded son of a bitch?

2) Anonymity brings out the ugliness in people.  Something about it being harder to get slapped for what they do tends to cause people to set asie inhibitions.  It's the same reason why people make a right into oncoming traffic, cut someone off to go 10 mph causing them to slam on brakes to avoid a collision, instead of waiting 2 seconds longer and slipping in behind them when there is no traffic behind said person. When people are harder to reach and more anonymous, they tend to let their hair down. The internet is incredibly anonymous.

3) People unconsciously assume that other people will know what they are talking about.  This isn't a personality flaw, just remember you may have to clarify what you mean by ellaborating.

- - So what should we do?  We let things go.  We give people the benefit of the doubt.  We question if they got what we said before we quote them out of context and start throwing around the word "immature" like it's going out of style.  We immediately clarify points people didn't get, using multiple examples and real life cross-comparissons can help people bridge the gap.  Most of all, we DO NOT SKIM, writing our counterpoints as we go.  That leads to not being able to find the forest because you're lost in the trees.

- - Read this thread from start to finish.  It got ugly.  Where there should have been suggestions on one side, and clarifications on the other, there were a bunch of redirections, misquotations, and redefinitions. Here are some thoughts on the topics discussed, from my point of view as someone who just read every post in this thread. This is what I would have responded with.

ANSI
- - There's no reason to only have 3 colors. If you have a different color for main descriptions (of rooms, characters), combat spam, objects, characters/mobiles, and objects present in a room, it makes visually parsing the information easier. It turns spam into... well... color-categorized spam.  If a room has 5 objects and 5 characters/mobiles in it, you look for the color you needed and cut the spam in half.

- - ANSI can be turned off, and is disabled by default, so there's no reason to shoot it down because you hate color.



Delays
- - I'd have just suggested idea'ing (I know that's not a word, shut up) adding a prompt flag that tells you what delay you are experiencing. People who wanted it would have it in an unintrusive way. Even if you hated the idea, there are a lot of more important ideas on the backburner that have to be done first.



Harshness
- - I would have clarified what I meant by harshness after the first instance it was misunderstood.  I'm not trying to come down on anyone, I'm just trying to say that the longer people have the wrong idea as to what you mean, the longer they'll keep arguing against a point you haven't made (and possibly agree with them on).

- - In any case, it's my personal opinion that there's just nowhere near enough pkilling.  There needs to be more clan conflicts, coersion, extortion, and beatings which end within inches of being terminal.  Mostly more clan conflict, because that is the fuel that makes the RP machine run.



Crimcode
- - Let's be reasonable here.  If I try to kill a templar, it is a bigger crime than picking a pocket.  It's pretty clear in the public docs, the game docs, and the clan docs that a commoner's life means shit to the nobles.  If you anger a merchant, s/he is NOT going to be able to rally an army of city guards to cut you down in an adrenaline-soaked frenzy anywhere near as well as someone those guards have to answer to.



Secrets
- - Why argue over whether or not things are still fun if you know how they will end?  Arm is fun because of the secrets active PCs keep from one another, not world secrets lurking out there to kill you. Part of the reason the world is so hard to traverse is so you can't easily go solo, miss out on interacting with others, sightsee, then find a new MUD.



Whining
- - This thread asked for people to list things about Arm that they felt were not good.  It isn't right that this thread got as nasty as it seemed to.  This wasn't a thread about improving the Southlands that somehow trailed off into griping about desert creatures and code problems, then turn into the 17,000th thread to flame "bad thief RP" and demand ludicrous code changes to STEAL. People were supposed to list their problems this time.



- - At this point I can't remember any other argument points. I'm just going to reply normally to other issues I spotted.



Red Storm
- - Red Storm is supposed to be a piss-poor frontier town.  It's supposed to have a shit selection of goods and slaughter criminals on the spot.  HOWEVER, you're entirely right in thinking it should be more active.  Red Storm will only be active once the world gets violent and nasty again.  Red Storm is a haven for traders and people who just don't want to die.  I believe that without the major conflicts to keep certain clans running, you don't need a haven for smugglers and people with prices on their heads.  That is why Red Storm is inactive.



The Way
- - It's really better the way it is.  If you expect people to turn in reports by hand, you're going to have people crossing the Known World in unrealistic time CONSTANTLY.  It's also an awesome tool for allowing players to get approval from Imm-controlled IC superiors.  The only problem with it is that it allows easy transfer of information.  That's where mindbenders come in.  I'm afraid I can't give details, but if you ever get psionicist karma and love masterminding things, you cannot beat a 'bender.



Mounted Combat
- - Mounted combat has actually been overrated for centuries.  If you look at historical instances, skilled infantry slaughter skilled calvalry.  For some reason, though, a number of military strategists through time have ignored history and just figured that since mounted combatants had an advantage over green soldiers, the same would hold true against veterans.  There are a number of reasons, but it comes down to a reach disadvantage, a balance disadvantage, and a mount-uncompatibility problem.

- - I think Machiavelli put it best when he said (with some punctuation fixes), "... one finds that horses, like men, sometimes have little spirit and sometimes have a great deal. Quite often it happens that a spirited horse is ridden by a timid man and a timid horse is ridden by a man of spirit. Of whichever kind the dispairity be, the result is subversive of utility and order."



Immortals
- - Imms are people too.  We get busy, emails get eaten in mechanical failures or bounced back from their servers (people who've emailed me are preparing flames as I type this), and sometimes requests require a higher imm to approve. There's not much beaurocracy up top, but there is some. When you have enough emails, you may forget to email player X to let them know you're just waiting for a reaction from a particular imm.

- - I don't think Immortals should try to act professional.  I find that superfiscial, and I believe it leads to people getting the idea they're better than the playerbase.  I've seen enough MUDs and Chat RPs with people who act professional, and most of them are run by people who desperately need a beating.  All of the imms I've dealt with in Arm, as both a player and an Imm, have taken the approach of speaking to me like a person addressing another person.  I think the mindset of not lording over people tends to make you... well... less prone to lord over people.

- - One last item: Immortals came from the playerbase, and it's a pretty accurate cross-section.  I'll pray for you all.

[ashjpd]

Eh,
Thanks Gesht.

[sarahjc]

Whew.. That was a mouthful Gehst. But well put.

However I still like mounted combat.

An here is a smiley face for you.  :wink: (context being that of a cutesy wink)

[Angela Christine]

Whew.. That was a mouthful Gehst. But well put.

However I still like mounted combat.

That reminds me of something I don't like.  Although I can't find it in the docs, I don't think it is a secret that you could tug the reins of certain combat-compatible mounts and they would do a cool manuver.  The manuver was only slightly useful, but looked damned cool to me, and gave a good excuse to ride something other than a Zalanthan pack mule (AKA kank).  A long while ago a bought one of these combat mounts, only to find the feature had been temporarily disabled due to abuse!  Argh!  :evil:  I suppose this isn't the MUDs fault, but rather the bastards that where abusing the feature.  And the feature is _still_ "temporarily" disabled.  :cry:  For some reason hunters, warriors and raiders all riding around on pack mules (aka kanks) really bugs me.

AC

[Black Isis]

Red Storm
- - Red Storm is supposed to be a piss-poor frontier town. It's supposed to have a shit selection of goods and slaughter criminals on the spot. HOWEVER, you're entirely right in thinking it should be more active. Red Storm will only be active once the world gets violent and nasty again. Red Storm is a haven for traders and people who just don't want to die. I believe that without the major conflicts to keep certain clans running, you don't need a haven for smugglers and people with prices on their heads. That is why Red Storm is inactive.

You're never going to have smugglers and traders hiding out in a town that is nowhere near any major trade routes though.  There's not much traffic in Red Storm because it's hard to get to and there's relatively little in the way of reward for doing so -- the only real commodity there is spice, and you don't make _that_ much of a profit unless you take it elsewhere -- it's like trying to sell cocaine in Colombia.  Unfortunately, trying to take it elsewhere is a dangerous proposition, so there's a lot of easier ways to make money.  I don't know if it's really a haven either, since you have to travel through wherever the major war zone would probably be to get there, unless you're coming straight from Allanak.  It'd be better if it was off to the side, so you could run there without having to run through a bunch of hostile forces.

I will say that another one of my biggest problems with the game is that the inhabitants of the wildlands are ludicrously dangerous.  Every random tribal is apparently some sort of swordmaster and every animal is some sort of combination of a lion, an elephant, and a cheetah, with a few exceptions.  Granted, if you know what you are doing (in a metagaming sense), you can avoid them and do okay on your own, provided you have prior knowledge of the game, but that is pretty cheesy.  Zalanthas' wildlands are like a forest populated with nothing but rabid grizzlies and wolves, and it's impossible to live off the land unless you're Paul Bunyan, as opposed to real life, where it's fairly easy for anyone who's read, say, an army survival manual, and has the stomach for it to live off the land on berries, roots, and small animals like squirrels and rabbits, with the chances of a random bear or wolf attack being fairly remote at best.

[Anonymous]

As far as mounted combat being superior to a footsoldier in Arm, I think that assumes that Zalanthan mounts are as trainable as a horse or elephant or camel to pay attention to the reins as much as the chaos around them.  Perhaps a kank or inix's survival instincts kick in and override all training, making staying atop them a chore that takes away from the combatant's ability to focus one slicing open the head of the very annoying adversary below them.

[Campbell]

I'm still on my first character in ARM.  And I haven't really been playing long enough to agree or disagree with a lot of you.  But as a newbie, it was most difficult to find a niche.

It wasn't until I joined the Byn that I found some connection to the mud world.  At first the Zalanthas was just another interesting setting.  But now that there are others that actually 'look' for me or expect me to be there,  I find it a lot more fun.  Even if it's just latrine duty.

So finding a niche was something I didn't like, but now I'm over it.  And when I have to create a new character it won't be as bad.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm not always on a client that has client-side aliases.  Also, on the one or two clients I've tried, activating client-side aliases always required a / before the alias. While that isn't major, occasionally I find it slightly annoying, especially since the reason I create aliases is to avoid having to type awkward commands or things I frequently misspell.

[SailorMars]

Zalanthas' wildlands are like a forest populated with nothing but rabid grizzlies and wolves, and it's impossible to live off the land unless you're Paul Bunyan, as opposed to real life, where it's fairly easy for anyone who's read, say, an army survival manual, and has the stomach for it to live off the land on berries, roots, and small animals like squirrels and rabbits, with the chances of a random bear or wolf attack being fairly remote at best.

Funny, that's something I like about Arm.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The NPC coding is poor, but I think that it succesfully, if crudely conveys that the wilderness isn't supposed to be at all similar to the wilderness in real life.  It's supposed to be the wilderness from hell.

[Gesht]

You're never going to have smugglers and traders hiding out in a town that is nowhere near any major trade routes though.

- - It is near a major trade route.  It's just a little ways south of the largest trade route in the Known World.  The catch is, unlike Allanak, you can legally trade anything (except slaves) and there aren't any people to "tax" or "fine" you for the crime of having money that clicks together too loudly. Since everything is peaceful in the world, Red Storm isn't as appealing. There will never be major activity in Red Storm until the rest of the world is active.

- - Homogenizing Red Storm to be exactly like the rest of the world defeats the point of Red Storm existing in the first place. Why on earth should people be able to make an easy profit off of poor people? I'd rather see Red Storm have a handful of people who represent Red Storm than dozens of people who want the Allanak experience but without the hassles of nobles and laws.

- - We do not change something in the game to make it more popular, we change things to make them better. I made it posible for people to live in poverty in Red Storm because there are supposed to be people living in poverty in Red Storm. I added some cheap vegetables and flour because Red Storm grows both. I'm not going to make it easy for people to make tons of money off of the village, because people aren't supposed to be getting wealthy that way.

- - If you are able to make good connections, Red Storm can become a place of trade even without major conflict. As a player, I was able to pull it off. Anyone can if they're resourceful and lucky enough (I'm not going to claim luck wasn't involved, heh).



- - As for "pull reins", I think that was disbanded to make way for the CHARGE skill.

[ashjpd]

Hmm.. curious, what is this new, "charge skill" I can pretty much guess what it is. Anyone know when it might be done also? I think it would be a great thing, it would definetly add more adreniline to battle, and have more people want to fight on mounts.

[Gesht]

- - I'm pretty sure CHARGE has been in the game for a while.  I know the helpfile is available.  I haven't had a character with it personally, though.

[Bhagharva]

This discussion was a good one until it degenerated quickly, as many seem to do.

This is about what we dislike so here is my poke with a pitchfork.

The kindler and gentler Armageddon-

When I began to play this game it was brutal. Death was very real it came quickly, sometimes it would come right out of the blue and it felt very permanant. With chargen taking a couple weeks it -REALLY- felt permamant.

Nowadays, you have an app in less than 24 hours, sometimes within minutes of dying. Nearly everyone (not all, don't bother getting hyperventilated) becomes irresistably drawn to the corpse of their former PC, many getting involved in the aftermath of their death somehow. I would have much preferred to see them wait a couple days to stew and cool off. There are of course exceptions, though rare as they are I personally do not feel there is enough exception to warrant the immediate approvals.

I think we cater to the timid and the sensitive player way too much. I can't believe we have to ooc'ly ask everyone involved if we want to do graphic scenes. Note that I mean violence, sexual scenes I can understand completely. Where has the brutality gone to?

I am personally willing to sacrifice ten average newbies for every one that comes into this game and enhances it with a realistic and thought provoking character. Instead, we try to draw numbers of players in the hopes of converting them to RPI. While drawing newbies isn't a bad thing, I don't think it should be as strong a focus.

The sad fact is, you are a rare breed. You players who see the magick in this game, you who understand that this is so much more than a generic CircleMUD with beastly fido's. It's the realism that drew me to this game, and while things were not always goodtimes and beer in the days of Armageddon yore, there was an excitement in the air and a sense of adventure that I feel we as a group are losing sight of.

The number of players that have problems with authority is staggering.

Players that have no personal ambition, yet are extremely vocal about problems with there being nothing to do but sit in taverns. Fact is, some people like to sit in taverns. By all means, if you like that, go for it. Those that consider tavern sitting a bad thing, you are who I am talking about. You lack initiative.

To me, the GDB is one of the worst things about this game. Before I would have said IRC and IM, I've witnessed so much trading of ooc info and ooc coordinating via the latter that it sickens me.  The GDB wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for a couple people who bitch constantly, endless complaining and bitching... I mean.. GOD...I know people like this in real life, they are sad self-loathing, probably a little inbred and extremely petty-minded. Most of them live in a ghetto or trailer park. We see them occasionally on Jerry Springer taking their clothes off. What up with that?  

I digress, the GDB should be a forum for discussions and not a soapbox for preaching. I think it should be something all must apply for to post messages, getting rid of guest messages completely and making the poster responsible for their words. Sure, no one can hurt you, but they can ban your ass for being an obtrusive ass that doesn't want to play nice.
You can play by the rules and be as brutal as brutal gets, its when someone is being antagonistic oocly that turns things into shit.

The reason why I think the GDB is worse than IM or IRC is that its where ALL arm players eventually gather and all of us have to listen to the constant whining of a few, many post so much that some of our newer players actually consider some of these morons an authority on things Armageddon. Yes, you don't like being called whiners. Well... if the shoe fits. Its ok to discuss ways of making things better in this game. It isn't ok to lump everything into the "This is why arm sux" category and then pick apart everyone that disagrees with you. If you actually dislike this game, I seriously doubt you'd be posting here at all. And that -is- the irony of all of it. For as much complaining that gets done, they are all Crackageddon heads.

Oh and why did we stop mandatory player beatings?

[ashyom]

Many issues that players have brought up in this thread are certainly doable or fixable.  This is a good thread, and I've been reading it closely so that I can relay them to our coders.  However, like the other staffers who have posted, the biggest problem I see that doesn't feel like it's fixable is the GDB.  I'm reminded of a saying that goes something like, "A few rotten apples spoils the whole barrel."  That's certainly true in regards to GDB.  

The staff does not care if the GDB is 'not as bad as other forums', as some posters have claimed.  Th GDB was created with the intent of providing a friendly place for players to meet and discuss the mud.  We set forth the rules, and we expect everyone to follow them.  Most do.  A few don't.  These few are the one who are spoiling it for the rest of us.  

Despite the staff, including myself, encouraging, praising, berating, scolding and even threatening some GDB posters to try change the tone and context of their posts for the better, we have seen very little change.  Every month or so, we make it a point to drop a note reminding posters to play nice.  The idiotic behavior ceases for a few days, then resumes full force.

The GDB was a good tool, it helps both new and old players, it brings you guys closer by providing a place to discuss the mud.  But all that might change.  A couple of the staff have posted already that says basically same thing I have in this thread (and a number of previous ones).  I guess we're at the breaking point, and we're ready to say, hell with it.  It's gotten to the point where the staff are considering just changing GDB to control this trend.  I'm not pleased with this.  Was I so naive to think that people could change their ways?  I'm starting to think so.
Ashyom the Disappointed

[Bestatte]

I dunno - a few rotten apples will only spoil the whole barrel if the person who is in charge of the barrel leaves the rotten apples in.

There's another saying - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Perhaps it's time to start denying posting privileges to people who abuse the generosity of the staff in providing this forum. Let people continue to read - there's still tons of very important and useful information here. But stop giving people permission to post, who have made it very clear that they have no desire or intention to be civil.

[Majikal]

If someone gets upset about an IG event and would like to BASH people on the GDB, or even contemplate bitching about anything on the GDB I can only advise the following:

A)go beat someone in your local supermarket with a baseball bat.
B)go stomp thirteen puppies into jelly.
C)kill your kitten and hang it from a tree outside your neighbors home with a sign reading "I hate the world" attached to it.
D)Let a donkey kick you in the face.

This is a game, a great game and the best MUD that I've ever played. One IG incident, or problem with the code will not convince me to leave this MUD. The immortals are donig a great job. This thread was great but I too would like to agree it degenerated quickly.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Bestatte.  Everyone loses their temper, everyone makes bad choices, but the people who are clearly here to detract from the GDB should be the ones dealing with the consequences, not everyone else by virtue of having the OOC-Chatter forum axed.

[Pantoufle]

The GDB wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for a couple people who bitch constantly, endless complaining and bitching... I mean.. GOD...I know people like this in real life, they are sad self-loathing, probably a little inbred and extremely petty-minded. Most of them live in a ghetto or trailer park. We see them occasionally on Jerry Springer taking their clothes off. What up with that?

Belittling someone for what sort of neighborhood they live in just ain't cool.  It also has nothing to do with what sort of discussions you post on the GDB.

[Carnage]

not everyone else by virtue of having the OOC-Chatter forum axed.

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

[Boggis]

Despite the staff, including myself, encouraging, praising, berating, scolding and even threatening some GDB posters to try change the tone and context of their posts for the better, we have seen very little change. Every month or so, we make it a point to drop a note reminding posters to play nice. The idiotic behavior ceases for a few days, then resumes full force.

Sounds like the Staff is spending too much time on these posters which could be more profitably be spent elsewhere.

Perhaps it's time to start denying posting privileges to people who abuse the generosity of the staff in providing this forum. Let people continue to read - there's still tons of very important and useful information here. But stop giving people permission to post, who have made it very clear that they have no desire or intention to be civil.

I'd like to see this happen. Asking them to actually be responsible and regulate themselves just doesn't seem to have worked. It would also cut down on the Staff having to continuously waste their time on trying to get them to respect the rules of the GDB in my opinion.