Can you think of anything -bad- about arm?..

[Spoon]

It's not ironic at all.

Whining about whining and whining about being labled a whiner is about as ironic as baring your arse to the moon.

So yes. Yes it is.

I'm only discussing what others have posted.

So you don't have anything that you yourself dislike about Arm? What a good boy. Or you don't want to post it because its easier to just tear down someone else's post then express something of your own? Or you think its pointless, so pointless that you feel  the need to discuss someone elses post point by point?

What's with all the hostility?

I don't feel like discussing what I dislike, as it is something that will not change if I discuss it.  I'm discussing what others have mentioned as I like to discuss things.

Now, kindly bring your hostile ass elsewhere.

Quit whining.

Anyway, I want to hear what you dislike about the mud. Since you seem to think what everyone else thinks about it useless whining. That's what -I- want to discuss. Maybe when you imply that everyone's post was whining and useless, you set the tone.

You just said you don't like discussing what you dislike because it is something that will not change...so why are you discussing it in this thread??? Because you like to discuss things? You are contradicting yourself.

[Malken]

One of the few real things I don't like about Armageddon is the players who posts on this board -all- the time.. Even tho I have been playing this game for over 10 years now, too many people here seems to think that this mud belongs to them and that only their own and their little gang's opinions matters.. Quick to make the new players feel like they aren't welcomed and make them feel like idiots, players who feel like they must post in every threads that exists and reply the same old thing that has been said just a few posts earlier makes me only post here once in a blue moon.

I really wish Sanvean would give the TWIT flag to some of the regulars, here..

[spawnloser]

Dead Newbie, I find your logic...unfollowable.

Seriously.

I said I am not going to discuss what I dislike.  I never said that everyone was whining.  I am discussing what other people have brought up, because they brought it up, so discussing it is an exercise in information.  I like such things, for the information only.  Where is this contradiction you speak of.  You don't know what my problems with the game are, but I will tell you this...my problems can NOT be solved by talking to players and players will get nothing out of hearing about my probelms.  My problems with the game are for me and staff to know about, and noone else.  Discussing other issues of others, however...why does liking to talk to bring out further explanation so that a thought is more fully fleshed out mean that I am contradicting myself?

Seriously, DN, this arguement that you have started is a derailment from the topic of the thread.  Let it drop.  I, and everyone else, am trying to discuss something here.  If you can't discuss it, instead of making personal attacks on your truly, please, just go away.

[Carnage]

about whining about what you think isn't right about the mud...

Huh? Since when is giving an answer to a question considered whining?

Seriously, DN, this arguement that you have started is a derailment from the topic of the thread.  Let it drop.  I, and everyone else, am trying to discuss something here.  If you can't discuss it, instead of making personal attacks on your truly, please, just go away.

So if I don't agree with you I should go away. Fat chance. I think its lame to refuse to say what you personally don't like about the mud but then feel free to criticize everyone elses posts.  I guess I will list another thing or two I don't like about this place.

I don't like players who are always willing to criticize but never willing to submit their own ideas for criticism.

I don't like players who seem to be trying to win brownie points by claiming that everyone who has an issue with Arm is a 'whiner' and the immortals who feed this behavior.

I don't like how when someone critiques someone else everything is fine, but when they get critiqued or their idea does, then suddenly the criticizer should 'go away'.

I don't like players who post on the board who qualify their posts trying to make it seem as if 'everyone' is on their side.

[Zore]

I don't understand what you mean by poorly implemented, it works perfectly, and always has. Or maybe you want a ticker or something on your prompt saying that you are under command delay.

Yes, the point is that you should know exactly when it's a command delay and when it's a network delay, and commands that are not delayed (like emotes) should not be delayed. The current code just stacks everything in a pile, outputs nothing informative and picks the commands one by one.

That is a point you left out, people who play this game wish to be immersed, and will often ask that things that are jarring be removed, I would, if such a thing were put in.

A good command delay interferes with immersion? Colour that can be turned off interferes with immersion? Shops open all the time interferes with immersion?

Exactly what do you mean?

But another reason to not have it SPECIALY not for new players is that it is something that makes the player focus even more on code, why, cause there it is, staring you in the face. The delays make sense in thier implementation, from move delay to skill delay to casting and crafting delay, Only thing I've always thought is that the delays should be warned about on the main web page.

The delays make it harder to emote during combat because they are coded poorly. They make emoting harder. They slow the game beyond what's necessary for a realistic command delay.

Because of the poorly implemented command delay, the limitations of the code hit you straight in the face.

No, the crim code in question works the way it does because of the world it is for, if it was a different world the crim code would be different. Zalanthian law -IS- black and white.

I already described the defects of the crime code in a previous message:

Things are not black-and-white on Zalanthas. There are different levels of crime. There are different odds at getting caught. These depend on factors like time, place, skill, the type of crime and such. The length of detention is absurdly small, but I don't have serious problems with that since it's a playability issue.

If the code actually does more than just roll the dice to see if every single soldier in the city comes after you, it does a good job in hiding it.

No, the end result of harshness should be death, else there is no threat and no harshness.

There is other threat besides death. This is a point many players ignore. Death effectively ends all RP on the victim's side. Other forms of threat do not.

If you are going to quote something that is realistic and has a miner affect on playability - -

Yes, that was an example of a situation where strive for realism decreased playability. Because someone said people do not put realism before playability, I provided this counter-example.

- - Or that he will never have a bowel movement unless you rp one?

Yes, that is putting playability before realism. Which is how it should be.

Hey, all I'm saying that having a more modern web pages, like most MUDs have, wouldn't hurt. I'd hate to think the 1993 layout is there to entice a certain type of player.

Why would you hate that? We -do- only want to attract certain types of players, I for one hope that the "1993 layout" Is there for that reason, as well, as keeping the web page a simple tool.

You honestly think we want to attract players to whom this 1993 layout appeals?

Seriously, being a solid RPer doesn't have anything to do with the current age-old look of the web site. It's there probably because nobody has bothered to change it. But the web site is the first thing new people see, and if you compare it to the other MUDs on e.g. topmudsites, you have a hard time explaining how antique pages make the MUD somehow appealing to new players.

And that's what the web site look is for. Not only for functionality, but to appeal to new players. Maybe you think it's irrelevant, but it's not. It's a part of the image that new people get, and currently it's pretty much in 1993.

[ashjpd]

I don't like it when the topic gets changed on my topics, but what I do like is an argument as the one above, so PLEASE continue.  :wink:

[Carnage]

I don't like players who are always willing to criticize but never willing to submit their own ideas for criticism.

I don't like players who seem to be trying to win brownie points by claiming that everyone who has an issue with Arm is a 'whiner' and the immortals who feed this behavior.

I don't like how when someone critiques someone else everything is fine, but when they get critiqued or their idea does, then suddenly the criticizer should 'go away'.

I don't like players who post on the board who qualify their posts trying to make it seem as if 'everyone' is on their side.

Quoted because I agree and the thing I hate most about Arm is the other people involved.

[spawnloser]

DN, I never said that I have no problems with the mud.  I simply refuse to discuss them with you because you have NOTHING to do with them and disucssing them with you can do NOTHING but HURT the mud.  Basically, I already said this.

Now, as to the rest of your dislikes...Very mature.

Since I addressed your first two dislikes above, to your third:

I don't like how when someone critiques someone else everything is fine, but when they get critiqued or their idea does, then suddenly the criticizer should 'go away'.

Well, when you stop attacking me by saying that I'm criticizing people instead of trying to discuss something, I'll stop telling you to go away.

[Spoon]

I think everyone should sit down for a moment and think about the question.

Can you think of anything -bad- about arm?..

Note the lack of the word  hate. I just think it's a little too emotive.

Also, saying that you only hate other users is a rather blunt argument for a Multi-user-*.

I don't like how when someone critiques someone else everything is fine, but when they get critiqued or their idea does, then suddenly the criticizer should 'go away'.

Well, when you stop attacking me by saying that I'm criticizing people instead of trying to discuss something, I'll stop telling you to go away.

Suggesting something that is obviously an over-reactive bit of tripe will never endear someone to your point of view.

That is not a criticism? Your right it's more like the attacks you accuse me of.

When you do it its "discussion", when I do it its "an attack".

Also as for the web page discussion. I think its fine. Shiny advanced web pages often lead to shitty RP.

[Zore]

DN, I never said that I have no problems with the mud.  I simply refuse to discuss them with you because you have NOTHING to do with them and disucssing them with you can do NOTHING but HURT the mud.

Are you seriously saying that discussing the defects of the MUD hurts it? So if we all be quiet and cozy, everything's gonna be alright?

I would say that the only way the MUD is going to evolve is by first discussing constructively what's wrong with it.

[jhunter]

spawnloser wrote:
It is poorly implemented? Saying a thing doesn't make it so. Tell us why you think it is poorly implemented.
I said, twice. It feels like a laggy connection. I've been to muds where they have solved the movement lag problem with consecutive messages like "You start moving southwards", that's one way of solving them.

Ugh! If something like this were ever done on Arm...I'd immediately quit playing and give it up.

It's the number one reason I don't play SOI, I find it absolutely irritating.

[Zore]

Ugh! If something like this were ever done on Arm...I'd immediately quit playing and give it up.

It's the number one reason I don't play SOI, I find it absolutely irritating.

So you choose your MUDs primarily based on the movement echoes?

Anyway, that's one way to implement a sophisticated movement lag. Even returning the prompt would be better. But to simply silently accept all commands and output nothing... that sucks.

Armageddon's user interface is by far the slowest MUD interface I've ever used. And network lag doesn't account for everything.

[Zore]

Shiny advanced web pages often lead to shitty RP.

Oh gee... I've seen a lot of shitty RP on Arm, so simple web pages must lead to shitty RP, too.

Or maybe web page look has nothing to do with the RP the MUD contains.

[jhunter]

No, that's a ridiculous question. It's just one thing in particular that get's on my nerves really bad.

"You begin walking west."

think NO FUCKING SHIT, I just entered a command that should've made me walk that direction...that was a completely usless piece of information that I didn't need on my screen.

[spawnloser]

Zore, my only complaint would hurt the mud to discuss it.  It should not be discussed openly as it is of a much too sensitive nature.

DN, when you attack me, I won't be kind in return.

That is all.  I've said my piece.  In general, bitching about the mud in this kind of format will not accomplish anything.  If you want to accomplish anything, talk to the people who can make it happen, not a bunch of other people that can't.

[Zore]

No, that's a ridiculous question. It's just one thing in particular that get's on my nerves really bad.

If a simple message like that is enough motivation for you to stop playing Armageddon, that's your choice.

But of course, you could gag it clientwise. After all, clientwise scripting is often suggested as a quick fix for Arm's lack of colour, absurd "nosave" command, and so on.

think NO FUCKING SHIT, I just entered a command that should've made me walk that direction...that was a completely usless piece of information that I didn't need on my screen.

Sometimes commands are not passed through. It happens to me alot with emotes, but I haven't yet determined what causes it.

Edit: You must be against "You start crafting" type messages, too?

[jhunter]

Quote:
think NO FUCKING SHIT, I just entered a command that should've made me walk that direction...that was a completely usless piece of information that I didn't need on my screen.
Sometimes commands are not passed through. It happens to me alot with emotes, but I haven't yet determined what causes it.

I've never once in ten years had that happen on any mud.

I don't see the point in adding something that serves no purpose to the rest of us, because there is one person who really seems to hate just about everything about Arm, just quit playing if you hate so much about it Zore. I wouldn't miss you.
*shrugs*

[Miee]

The period of my greatest desire to play Arm being on Saturday afternoons, resigning to do something else instead, getting involved in said thing, and not remembering about Arm until 9PM PST.

I also -really- dislike the GDB for all the posts about people <stand> <scan>ing, twink thieving, people just not playing along... it destroys my faith in you all.

[SpyGuy]

How is a movement echo sophisticated?  To me its jarring and somewhat annoying.  I would ask to be able to emote through the combat delay, just like you can emote during crafting.  Other than that I say keep it as it is, it doesn't interfere with the game.

The webpage is fine as it is in my opinion.  Tons of pictures and scrolling info on guilds and everything...its all a bunch of clutter to me.  A "modern" layout, by my understanding of what you want to see, is a more graphical interface.

As far as this argument, its a discussion and people have the right to offer -constructive- criticism regardless of their own contributions.  This isn't a contest to see who can out post the other or who can get the best idea off, I interpreted this as a thread about how to improve the game.  We all have different ideas on that and seriously, hostility on a GDB for a MUD is pointless.

And before anyone wants to accuse me of sucking up to an Imm or something, Sanvean isn't the only one who would like to read through a thread without seeing personal attacks.  Sometimes dropping a point or expressing yourself then letting your opinions stand for themselves works.

[Zore]

I don't see the point in adding something that serves no purpose to the rest of us, because there is one person who really seems to hate just about everything about Arm, just quit playing if you hate so much about it Zore. I wouldn't miss you.
*shrugs*

Thanks for jumping straight into ad hominems. I'm not going to even dignify that with a response.

But I will point out though, that there is something seriously wrong if a simple list of my personal dislikes as requested by the original poster creates this much hate and mayhem.

I sincerely hope the posters in this thread (including myself) do not represent the playerbase as a whole.

[jhunter]

Thanks for jumping straight into ad hominems. I'm not going to even dignify that with a response.

*snickers*

You realize...you just did? :lol:

[X-D]

Yes, the point is that you should know exactly when it's a command delay and when it's a network delay, and commands that are not delayed (like emotes) should not be delayed. The current code just stacks everything in a pile, outputs nothing informative and picks the commands one by one.

I agree that emotes should be outside the que, but nothing else, not even other commands without delay, and the problem otherwise is not with code, but the player...Don't stack commands and you will not have that problem.

A good command delay interferes with immersion? Colour that can be turned off interferes with immersion? Shops open all the time interferes with immersion?

Exactly what do you mean?

I don't remember saying that color interfers with immersion or shops closing...where the hell do you get that? But since you feel like bringing that up again, Armageddon has color, offwhite text on black backround with some things highlighted in a bright white, By the arguement you have that color can be turned off, so that argument can be turned around, if you want color, add it through your client, me, I don't like it and don't use it and I've never played any muds with large amounts of color, and I've been mudding since the very beginning. Shops closing HELPS with immersion if anything, since it is realistic. As to things to tell you that your under command delay, they suck, they add to spam, they are jarring and the repetition drives one (or at least me) Insane, e:you begin walking east:you walk east:e:you begin walking east...then, add in 5 or six other pc's and npcs moving...UGH...it's horrid horrid spam. Sit here after walk for a while actually talking to the screen "I know I'm fucking walking east" then have to sit there and make my client remove the message...its painful.

The delays make it harder to emote during combat because they are coded poorly. They make emoting harder. They slow the game beyond what's necessary for a realistic command delay.

Because of the poorly implemented command delay, the limitations of the code hit you straight in the face.

As I said above, I agree emotes should be outside the que and/or delay, but nothing else, and who decides on what is a realistic command delay? Goes to your point on realism verses playability, I think most the delays are unrealisticly short, but if they were realistic it would be unplayable.
But You say the delay is poorly coded, I say That is the way the powers that be want it.

I already described the defects of the crime code in a previous message:
Quote:
Things are not black-and-white on Zalanthas. There are different levels of crime. There are different odds at getting caught. These depend on factors like time, place, skill, the type of crime and such. The length of detention is absurdly small, but I don't have serious problems with that since it's a playability issue.

Different levels of crime? Huh? The templars say what is a crime, and I've yet to deal with one that thinks there is different levels of crime, committing a crime is often a personal affront to a templar....Now, that is pc's, the code goes much much lighter, but I tell you, the crim code is not going to be changed anytime soon, if ever, but that is because of the players that then take advantage of the kinder gentler crim code.

There is other threat besides death. This is a point many players ignore. Death effectively ends all RP on the victim's side. Other forms of threat do not.

Though true, the other forms of threat carry no weight with players unless backed with death, This is unfortunate...so, On this point, in light of your clearer explanation I'll agree. And it gets rather upsetting at times, often even ruining good scenes...shrug...anyway, that's worth another thread, onward.

Yes, that was an example of a situation where strive for realism decreased playability. Because someone said people do not put realism before playability, I provided this counter-example.

- - Or that he will never have a bowel movement unless you rp one?

Yes, that is putting playability before realism. Which is how it should be.

No, it should be is balanced between the two, and armageddon does a damm good job of this IMO, You want playability before realism, go play archea...Heh.

You honestly think we want to attract players to whom this 1993 layout appeals?

I honestly think that the players who look at the webpage as a tool and documentation without any distractions and are happy are the ones who tend to enjoy the game, play well, and stay around, yes. I'm not attracted by the cover I'm attracted by the content.
Me, I think we want to attract other players who are attracted by content, who are tired of the other muds with the flowery web pages who claim RP Intense or RP enforced and don't live up to it. They start searching, before long they are just skimming over these fancy modern web pages that all look the same, then, they get to the Armageddon web page and it is different then the rest, catches the eye, they stop, maybe think Hhhmmm, maybe I will read a bit....