Petty and Clan RP, House Competition and much much more

[Quirk]

I completely disagree with the notions presented in this thread. As a player, I've changed the world many times. I've started and stopped conflicts and I've rose in power in clans that are said to be stagnant. How? By having a little vision and talking other people into doing my dirty work for me, for example.

How often have you effected something (within say, the last three years, as a player) that has caused a shift in the balance of power between major clans or brought clan-wide (rather than personal) conflict into play between clans that were not already experiencing such?

"Rising in power" within a clan is not hard to do at certain levels (e.g. gaining leadership over other PCs) and is rarely seen at others (e.g. obtaining a position where say, you can legitimately decide to halt your House's co-operation with House Voryek).

The key point to understand here is that people are not asking to shake the world; they are asking to have some measure of control over the organisations they are part of. We understand the realism arguments, so we'd be happy with organisations of a size that we could realisticly change.

Even better, if you are a CEO of a major company and you decide on your weekend off to work out a merger with another company and not consult your shareholders, your going to be met with resistance.

And yet the vast majority of PC leaders are not CEOs, but middle managers, often saddled with the vaguest of responsibilities, given little guidance, and slapped down when they transgress their sometimes ill-defined boundaries.

We have in this game, expecially in the cities, something I call the status quo.  The establishment. Its a veritable mountain to move, but it CAN be moved if you have the right lever as someone put it eloquently and know where to push.

It moves but little when it moves at all, and we all know this. It takes months or years to change things. While this is as it should be on the world scale, there's a lack of medium-sized city clans in which PCs could make a far more significant difference.

Boredom is the lamest excuse to use in this game, there are a thousand and one ways to die and more ways to enjoy yourself/keep occupied. Players who are easily bored I also have a name for 'SHEEP'.

In your last couple of posts, you've made the assumption that people who disagree with you are easily bored, and insulted them. This is not a particularly encouraging attitude to see from an imm. Many of us who have posted run successful independent characters which we find interesting and exciting, and enjoy fulfilling their personal goals. These characters often accomplish far more than most in Houses do, largely because they do not suffer the constraints of ritualised sparring and schedules, of having static allegiances that set their personal relationships with those of other Houses in stone. I could well be insulting about those who spend the majority of a year playing in a House, increase the PC guards from a couple to a half-dozen, get promoted to Sergeant or Lieutenant and then imagine they've accomplished something major for that House. I choose not to. If people wish to restrict their characters' ability to fulfill their personal goals in exchange for an absence of clan goals, that's fine by me, but it does not encourage me to play in those clans. I'd rather play in a player-run one, even though player-run clans have a notorious habit of attracting the unpleasant and often violent attentions of bored House players. Where there are imm-run clans of a size small enough that I feel a single PC can make a serious impact over time, or that are good at cascading clan goals down to the lower ranks, I will play in them, too. But I think if this thread has shown anything, it's shown that this disillusionment with most clan RP is not solely confined to myself alone.

I urge you to reread my initial points, and if you disagree with them, please ask yourself why it is that most people who have posted in this thread see things differently. The answer is not "they're sheep".

Quirk

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Quirk is absolutely right.  I think things used to be different, worse in some ways, but better in others (as far as clan RP goes).  It used to be that players had (or could have) unrealistic power and influence in their clans.  This had the negative effect of being unrealistic and hurting the game world (heh), but it did have a positive effect of -being fun-!  I can't blame the imm's from doing their best to make things realistic, after all, that's the goal of this game we all play.  But, there's been an unwanted side effect of making clan RP "petty".

People want to be able to engage with their clan, to join together, so their efforts can make a real difference in whether their clan succeeds or fails, profits more or less, grows or shrinks.  This just doesn't seem to happen anymore.  It isn't realistic for a middle manager to have a real sort of effect on the bottom line of a huge corporation, right?  But, that's not fun.

I recently had a long-lived character in one of these corporate clans, I was the 2nd most important PC in the clan (arguably the first most in terms of day to day operation).  My goals and the goals I brought to the clan were all of the 'petty' variety.  Now, don't get me wrong, I had a good time playing that character...it's just the IC clan itself was completely irrelevent to my OOC experience of playing the character, and my character's experience and IC efforts were completely unimportant to the IC clan.  Does that make sense?  I mean that clan I was helping to organize and run was really an OOC one, and it was related in name only to the IC clan we were in.  This, to me, is a big problem.

Possibly the solution is to stop joining IC'ly large imm-run clans altogether.  I know I'm not in a hurry to join one again, even though I had a great time with that character.  The things that made that character fun had nothing to do with the IC clan, and would actually have been easier without it.  (Easier as long as I could have rented a room/compound from Nenyuk, anyway.  A clanhall is necessary.)

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm glad you didn't go for solutions yet, Quirk, because I don't think there is anything to fix.  Since other people have already disagreed with your assertions that clan goals RP is dead, that there is no inter-clan conflict and that what little conflict might exist is never seen by the rank and file, I won't even go there.  So, putting aside whether these assertions are even correct, my main quibble is over whether anything needs to be fixed.

I felt that most of the posts were supporting Quirk.  Time for me to jump in.

Your whole argument seems to be based around a premise that "clan goals RP" is far superior to "petty goals RP".  Even your name for it implies this (since petty, in addition to meaning simply "minor", connotes something that is of small importance, inconsequential and trivial).  RP arising from self-interested goals can have quite a bit of consequence, can involve quite a number of other players and can have far-reaching effects. Then there are the self-interested goals which merge and meld with clan goals; those which arise from the self-interest of an individual whose personal interests are inextricably bound up with the interests of his or her organization.

One of my characters was killed because he called a character in a certain clan (a character that later proved to be nonexistant) a wench.  Another character was killed by the same clan because he muscled a dead duskhorn away from a low-ranking member of that clan.  Before he was killed he went to the clan and gave them what he got from skinning the duskhorn, since he began to realize it was a bad idea.

A Borsail noble's personal goals are very likely going to converge with the interests of her whole house or, at the least, provide some benefit to the house.  And the nature of those personal goals will, in no small part, be shaped by the very fact that she is a member of the Borsail family.

I've yet to meet a noble who's goals were anything but simply rising up in position in their clan.  The typical noble has no clue how to promote the interests of her house, from what I can tell.

I think they do provide extra opportunities by virtue of the fact that they help define who people are.  The Houses gives us a rich history and set of traditions which help to focus an individual's goals, to say nothing of how being in a certain house will bring with it traditional enemies and allies and colour how our PC is viewed by others.

And why can't a clan that isn't as large ICly manage to do the exact same thing?

"Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane.  Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there.  Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

I think the underlying and hitherto unmentioned desire is not to take the playerbase and make them into black-robed templars, heads of noble houses, etc.  It isn't to give players the ability to start wars or create world-changing events.  It is simply to be in clans in which making a difference is possible and realistic.  The current clans are obviously unsuitable for allowing this.

[Thanos]

Anytime I get frustrated with the way things run, I take a step back and repeat my montra(sp?). There is more going on than I am aware of. I know this for certainty.

I've shook the world, created and destroyed clans. I've rose to power from within and from without. A year ago I took took an independant clan and made a difference in an assault on a city-state. It is all possible. Independant clans rise to power on a regular basis in the game. Unfortunately, it always seems that the same three or four players are the ones who put the effort into making this happen, but IT DOES HAPPEN.

Now, for all of you who are bored in your clans and feel as though you do not have the authority to do the things you would like to do. Act above your authority for crists sake. You will either be smacked down for the shitty job you did, nothing will happen because of the fair job you did. Or maybe, just maybe, you will have furthered your clans goals and be promoted for your work.

Parting thought. More goes on in the world than you are aware of.
Thanos

[Bhagharva]

In your last couple of posts, you've made the assumption that people who disagree with you are easily bored, and insulted them. This is not a particularly encouraging attitude to see from an imm. Many of us who have posted run successful independent characters which we find interesting and exciting, and enjoy fulfilling their personal goals.

This is the first post I have made in this thread. I have not made any assumptions about anything. I do not believe that people that disagree with me are bored. If any of you take my critisism of the topic as a personal insult, I can't help that.  This is not the first time I've disagreed with a thread and not the first time the creator of the thread assumed I have a personal grievance with them. I have no problem with stating my big fat opinion about a topic if I feel strongly enough about it. And I see no reason why I should hold back any thoughts I have towards players that lack initiative, but complain that they can't do anything. I am not singling Quirk out. I feel this way about any player who actually lacks initiative. If you are not that kind of player, I am not talking about you. If you are a go getter, that is brilliant and can move mountains but 'the man' is keeping you down.. well..from a birds-eye perspective, we notice players like that pretty quick.

If they truly are innovative, it gets noticed. But trying to change what has been established, just because -you- think its a good idea. Is not a good reason for it to happen. A good reason, is when whatever your trying to accomplish makes sense and you have taken the steps to ensure your project or goal will succeed..

I have played many successful indepentant PC's myself in the day. I've done it in clans and I've done it without. I've halted a years long feud between two clans with my PC. Started a school. Started a business..family.. the list goes on. This is about someones perception of what is petty. If you think working middle management is petty, go start your own business. Just don't expect the support you had in the clan.

[jhunter]

Sorry Bhagharva,

I think Quirk is right...your instantly going to the assumption that the players are bored because they have no initiative...and being rather insulting about it IMHO, which is really sad to see from one of our imms.


The problem I see anyway, that you can be motivated all you like...but, everything you do that's out of the ordinary every day shit, has to be approved by an imm. This is understandable, some things wouldn't be appropriate, but others that would be appropriate, are getting shot down as well and causing those motivated leaders to stop trying.

Why work to do anything for the clan if everything you attempt is shot down?

The messed up thing is, my pc has made suggestions to another leader type, and they are happening.

Any of them that my pc might actually get a hand in, other than supplying the idea, is shot down leaving me to boredom.

It's gotten me to wondering all sorts of possiblities as to what the reasoning is behind this is.

Recently I asked my clan imm for some ideas and was given some and told what they wanted to execute them, worked out some things with others in game...mailed the imm back with a question about it...and then was basically given a "forget it" sort of answer.

This wasn't even something really big, just something a bit bigger than normal...that has been done in the past.

[jhunter]

Now, for all of you who are bored in your clans and feel as though you do not have the authority to do the things you would like to do. Act above your authority for crists sake. You will either be smacked down for the shitty job you did, nothing will happen because of the fair job you did. Or maybe, just maybe, you will have furthered your clans goals and be promoted for your work.

Problem is that if you pc knows their boundaries and is trying to be a good employee this will never happen because they try to okay everything first.

Seems like it's a matter of risk fucking things up for your clan and if it goes well you will be rewarded, if it goes bad punished...but do a good job within your limits, be a good employee and you'll go nowhere.

[grog]

Seems like it's a matter of risk fucking things up for your clan and if it goes well you will be rewarded, if it goes bad punished...but do a good job within your limits, be a good employee and you'll go nowhere.

Well, it's realistic.  Those who take risks get noticed, while those who just do their job tend to fade into the background, with everybody else who is just doing their job.

[jhunter]

It isn't always like that...which is the unrealistic part.

Yes sometimes it is, but not always. Sometimes those people would be getting punished just for taking the risk, whether successful or not and getting a "bad mark" on their record that prevents them from going any further.

[crymerci]

Maybe this is a matter of different people having different expectations of what is realistic.

I knew someone over a year and a half ago whose character hatched a plot to steal his clan's wagon.  He thought it was well thought out, but it was shot down, so he became upset.  But if he'd thought about it more, he would have realized that the presence of VNPCs did make it unrealistic.

In another case, one of my characters was told to deal with a situation, and I outlined what she had thought out and done, for the imm.  Another imm informed my imm of a circumstance that made the original plan unrealistic.  It sucked big time, but now that I have more distance from the situation, it was the right decision.

If you want to accomplish something, it requires more than just getting the idea and running out and doing it.  You need planning, patience, perseverance.  You need to stick it out for awhile, think everything through, and you need to be able to deal with obstacles that may be placed in your way.

I put forth LoD earlier as a player who has accomplished great things in the past. Here are quotes of two excellent posts he made awhile back, which are actually to do with creating new clans, but also apply to anything else world-changing you might want to do:

Leading a clan is rough work.

Established or brand new, it requires hours of time both online and offline making sure that everyone is taken care of, including the Imms. You have to be available for your players, provide and update documentation, keep plots moving, people entertained and all this while trying to have a good time.

I have been involved in a quite a few clans in my time and, contrary to AC's comments regarding an inabiliy to shape the world via pre-established clan characters, it is possible to make an impact upon the world with EITHER route.

The key to being a successful clan leader is forming a realistic and workable plan, setting it into motion and following through no matter how long it may take and how many obstacles are thrown in your way. The Imms aren't just going to read your email on 'Clan ChewyChomp's Desert Fortress of Power' and get to work creating it after you log and mail in a few hours of RP.

The Imms want the rewards to come as a result of hard work and a few risks along the way. They'll throw in a few bumps to see how well you handle the problems and give you a chance to make a good story. Some players see these blocks as "getting screwed" simply because they were hoping they'd rise to the height of power within a House/Clan simply by sitting in taverns for years on end - which does happen.

As a pro-active player, however, I have made several attempts to change and alter the world with my clans and the clans of the game.

Ironswords. The Ironswords are a documented dwarven clan that beseiged the city-state of Allanak for a game YEAR after freeing the southern slaves of the obsidian mines. Led by Thrain Ironsword, yours truly. It didn't just happen though. I didn't wake up and decide to do it.

Wish all Hey, going to attack Allanak tonight - load up about 100 dwarven NPC's if you could, thanks. I'll let you know when to attack.

That's not how it works. I built contacts, worked out relationships with clans, built my army and trained them. Worked hard to develop my character and my concept - gained support politically and physically. Then, when everything came to a head - we attacked.

It doesn't always work. Your PC can die smack dab in the middle and it all fizzles and dies.

I have also had success bringing life to a pre-existing clan, House Salarr, which (at the time) had a non-existant playerbase. I started a PC when he was 17 years old (Khann D'arden) and joined Salarr as a beginning merchant.

He ended up retiring at 55, head of almost all operations and probably being one of the largest world-players there's been because of it. Estates were built, plots were set in motion, clans were made to support the play a simple plan put into motion. It just takes dedication and hard work.

To give another, more recent, example - there has been an addition in the game (as noted in the Updates) that a northern branch of the T'zai-Byn has opened. This didn't simply come about because the Imms figured it was 'about time' or that it was a good idea.

Taking a leadership role, I made a plan that I thought made IC sense, was realistic and would be a fair challenge. Over the course of about 10 RL months, I made contacts, RP'd, handled political and physical challenges and finally, through many hours, days and months of hard work and planning, saw my goal achieved.

Would there have been a northern compound if I hadn't pushed forward with the idea and tried my best to make it happen, possibly. But this is exactly the 'kind' of result you can achieve in a pre-existing clan to make your mark and be remembered when all is said and done.

There is room to stretch in both categories, new and old. You can make your mark on the MUD in both catgeories and it follows the same path. Hard work, planning, goal setting and a little bit of luck.

More than my two cents, but hey - I've got a whole pocket full of change.

-LoD

I'll say it again, leading is rough work.

I figured some PC leaders (and their followers) could use some insight into just what goes on in the role of a leader. Now I am simply speaking from experience and certainly not implying that my way is the 'right way' or the 'best way' by any means, but it has worked for me.

It starts when you log on, every day.

From the moment you log on, You feel a foreign presence contact your mind. Someone always needs something: a few moments of your time, a decision about a job, a question about House policies, informing you one of your men is in jail, wanting to quit the House, wanting to get paid, asking to join up with the House.

And that's in the first 10 minutes. If you collect all of these requests and add them together, you've just committed yourself (if you're lucky) to about 30 mins - 1 hour of simply handling other people's tasks. This goes on all day long, so be ready for it. There's no way around it, that is your job as the leader of the clan - a slave to your people.

I know that many people think that all you do is sit around in taverns, yucking it up with clients or nobles or smoking spice in a back den somewhere, but it's all part and partial to the leading gig. People have no idea how much work it involves micro-managing a clan of players whom all want to have fun and need -you- to provide it for them. While most leaders don't mind, the general populace should be aware at how time consuming dealing with it can be.

Keeping your followers active.

One of the main things you must do to have a happy clan is keep them active. Now, this doesn't mean you have to have an RPT every single day and create large-scale plots and events. It just means that your people need to have a sense of direction and purpose. They can only stand guard at a gate or by your side for so many hours without losing their minds and wondering what the hell they are doing when their friends are telling them on ICQ how they just escaped a horde of gith and found a cool ass cave in the desert.

Keep your men busy. Use anything that you can to give them purpose and even make up small jobs that really don't mean anything. If there are 3-5 of them around, have them go outside and do something, anything. They don't need to know why it's important, you're the boss. Tell them that we need five gith skulls. That ought to keep them busy. Have them run to Red Storm and pick up a few jugs of spiced ale for a future meeting or to head north to Luir's to see what's going on of late and continue developing relations with their people.

It does seem like a lot, but it's why players play the game. They want to build a story and have a good time. Help them reach that goal. They may die, yes, but if you are a high-level leader in your clan, I highly doubt that you're going anywhere soon and fresh meat pop up all the time in their stock leggings, pack and torch waiting for work.

Reward your followers with praise and coin.

If you want to be a clan leader for long, you'd better learn how to keep players happy. That is one of the single most important things about being a leader - knowing what players want and giving them enough to stay with you.

The best system I came up with is to reward them whenever you see them and they complete a task, in addition to a monthly wage. You may have the set the wage low if you have a lot of employees, but the fact that they will receive money in their pocket that DAY instead of waiting for some kind of monthly salary will have them logging in much more frequently for a chance at some coin.

If your guards are with you when you travel somewhere to make a little 'sid with some sales, gives them a small cut. Buy them some drinks when you're in the tavern. Allow them some time to look for 'cool eq' when you're riding through a village or town they rarely get to see. Reward them when they do things well and, in return, they will begin to look for ways to serve you instead of waiting for you to tell them.

Provide them with a good set of policies and rules that empower them to do more than spar, spar, spar all day long. Give them a schedule of things to do and guidelines with which to do them so that you're both comfortable they won't run willy nilly into the sands to their death. If you don't set up these guidelines, people WILL die. They'll do it even if you DO set up good policies - I used to call it Kohmar disease when I played Khann.

I'd JUST finish buying armor, weapons, food, water and clothing for my new hire. Went over the rules and everything and the first thing they do when I'm not around is walk straight out the damn gate and die to krath-knows-what out in the desert. Wasted MY time and MY money. That happens over and over and over and over to -any- employer. Those of you whom are employees wanting to know why you may be paid so slowly - these are exactly the type of bad apples that make we leaders wary of handing out much at all.

The burden, and responsibility, of command.

You are responsible for EVERYTHING. If a player isn't have fun. Your fault. If an Imm hasn't made that special order yet, your fault. If your employee decided that it'd be fun to storm into the Trader's Inn and slaughter the single most powerful noble lord in all of the city because they were bored and thought it be 'k00l' - guess what? It's all your fault and you may be executed or punished because of the actions of another player you had NO CONTROL OVER.

This can be the single most frustrating thing about being a leader is the dreaded contact from a noble, templar or other such authority figure demanding you come speak with them about the actions of one of your employees. I know that ICly they want to bring the matter to your attention and ask why it has occurred. Someone's head has to roll. It should NOT be that of the employer, however, as they have about as much control over the players and their ultimate decisions as you have over what shirt they're wearing in RL.

In addition to this, you are responsible when people don't get paid because they log in at odd times or infrequently. You are responsible when they aren't having as much fun as they thought they would or when they get bored or when they can't figure out for themselves how to have a good time. You are always responsible and it hangs like a weight over your head to provide these things to people in your clan.

Setting goals and planning.

So, you've recruited a group of people. They train themselves and a few of them have actually managed to stay alive for more than 2 RL weeks and you want to actually use them now. As a leader, you need to take a look at your position and see what you want, and can, accomplish. Take a large long-term goal and chop it up into little sections, then set your men and yourself in motion on a timeline you'd like to see. Email the Imm Staff on your project and what you plan to do so they can jump in and help/hinder you along the way as they see fit within the confines of the game world.

Examples.

Goal: Free the dwarven slaves of the southern obsidian mines.

Step 1: Gather dwarves loyal to my cause. Train them. (ongoing)
Step 2: Establish a place of operations from which to train.
Step 3: Gather money to place bribes, hire men and get information.
Step 4: Case the mines, the guard rotations, the distance from the city.
Step 5: Meet with different nomadic tribes, asking for help.
Step 6: Meet with members of the target's enemies, asking for help.
Step 7: Meet with friends and neighbors, asking for help.
Step 8: Form a plan of attack that won't be reported to the enemy.
Step 9: Meet and gather the support of other dwarven tribes.
Step 10: Formalize the plan of attack and gather your forces.
Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.
Step 12: Let the RPT take its course.

Now, some of these steps may only take a few minutes while others will take RL months to handle properly. This will create a LOT of RP and direction toward a clan and its followers that gives it a drive and a reason for being. The men know the cause, they know what to do, they know why and the leader gives them the tasks they need to accomplish. You must also stay on top of everything and keep driven. Most importantly you must not DIE because if you do - almost all of your goals and planning fall apart as your employees die and leave the organization.

I could write all day about the trials and tribulations involved with being a clan leader, but I doubt anyone would want to spend the time.

Being a leader is DAMN hard work. You need to be online, attentive, diplomatic, considerate, understanding, firm, harsh, deceptive, manipulative, cunning, quick and fair all at the same time. It's not a job that anyone can do. Anything worthwhile takes time, so just put one foot in front of the other and keep things moving.

-LoD

PS - AC, thanks for clarifying your point. I probably will write something up regarding clan and OOC leadership on the MUD.

Here is a link to the original thread.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Bhagharva, this thread is not so much about players being bored in large, imm-run clans, but about a lack of something meaningful to do in those clans.  I, for example, had great fun in a clan I was recently in, and wasn't bored at all...but I still wanted something more out of it.  Working for a large, imm-run clan may be fun, but it is ultimately unsatisfying once you realize that nothing you do matters to that clan.  You can be a very productive employee, but you're still just a cog in the machine.  I believe recent efforts (over the past couple years) by the imms have impressed this on the clan-playing PC population.  Now, -I approve- of these efforts, even though they have taken some of the satisfaction out of playing in a IC'ly large clan.

If you think working middle management is petty, go start your own business. Just don't expect the support you had in the clan.

I think you misunderstand what Quirk is saying.  He's not saying that he thinks working in middle management is petty.  He's saying "According to the way I've defined things, working in middle management -is- petty."  It's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact, according to his arguement and definitions.  If you disagree with this, you should debate his definitions, premeses, or logic.

By the way, why shouldn't independent-run clans expect immortal support?  Perhaps this is the direction in which Armageddon should be moving.  Maybe devoting one imm to running the independents isn't a bad idea.

[Ix Machina]

I never tell my clan members to forget an idea, but I do give reasonable limitations in implementing the ideas. Noone has the authority in their  clan to go above limitations already put in place, but creatively, there are ways to work around them, and I have pointed many of these out to people many times when I am approached with ideas.

If you, as a player, -any- player, are discouraged by a challenge (and I am not the sort of immortal to handfeed my clan members, as any of my clan leaders can tell you. I believe if you want something done, then do it yourself, I'll help you, I'll support you, but within the framework that has been set in place for the clan) then it isn't that you're getting 'shot down'. It's that you're not taking the right approach.  But many times I, and other clan immortals are approached with ideas, and when the plan can't be implimented exactly as hoped for, we receive a throwing up of hands and saying 'Can't be my way, I give up!'.

People, nothing is ever going to turn out exactly like you want it. The game is made up of many players, both staff and not, and even staff have to curb their grandiose ideas to fit within the schema of the framework of the world. If an immortal gives you a challenge and says "Okay, you can do this but you can't do -that- to make it happen" then by gum, put a little thought and creativity into it. We aren't here to hold your hand and give you everything you ask for, but we -will- help to make your ideas a reality even if in some ways, the original idea must change. If you just give up half-way through, and start ranting about how the 'man' is getting you down because they won't let your 2 day old stonecrafter tear down Kadius from the inside, well.. it just makes us less inclined to go forward.

Making things happen is a two-way street. I've never had a problem, as a player, making things happen with my characters. It -is- the same pc's who make things happen over and over.

In my opinion, it is a question of initiative. Even if your idea gets 'shot down' and in my experience, I've never shot down an idea with an outright no. I always explain the reasoning and give alternatives, then you need to be prepared to rework. Adapt. Resubmit another idea. If you don't have the initiative to do this, if you can't work over realistic challenges, if you expect things to be handed to you, then I'm sorry.

The players who do get things done aren't imm pets. They aren't 'special' or 'different'. They simply have the drive, motivation and patience to see their ideas come to fruition and they are willing to work for them and comprimise to make sure it gets done. Nothing happens by sitting around complaining about how nothing ever happens.

[Bestatte]

Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.

And after all the work you've done, you get an e-mail:

Dear player:

So sorry, but you can't do that. Please come up with something else, and thanks for playing!

Love,
The Imm.

[crymerci]

Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.

And after all the work you've done, you get an e-mail:

Dear player:

So sorry, but you can't do that. Please come up with something else, and thanks for playing!

Love,
The Imm.

If you'll notice, he said that he sent the entire plan to the imms at the beginning.  He kept them in the loop from the start.  I doubt they would have waited until the last minute to tell him if it wasn't feasible.

[Rindan]

I think more people here agree then they realize, the problem is that people are arguing in parallel.

"Carrots are the best vegetable."
"No, apples are the best fruit."

The points people are making (as I see them) are:

Sanvean and Bhagharva both make the point that:
1)  The world is very hard to move and most large organization are relatively static, this is realistic.
2) You can move the world, it just takes a lot of effort.
3) There is stuff happening and there is conflict, it is just some times hidden from plain sight and/or on a higher level.
4) The world should remain for all practical purposes unmovable for the average Joe

Quark's points are:
1)  It is very hard for Joe recruit PC to get into conflict that is not 'petty'.
2)  This is because clans are set up to be nearly immovable.
3) There has to be another way.

I don't think there is any disagreement about Sanvean's and Bhagharva's points.  I think everyone agrees that those points are all very much true.  Further, I believe that most people don't want to see those things change.  I don't think anyone is advocating giving PCs unrealistic control over massive clans, nor giving PCs the ability to make large alteration to the world without great effort.  

If you agree with Sanvean and Bhagharva, I think you have bitten the hook of what I think is the crux of Quark's argument.  All of the above are true, but more importantly, it is boring.  Boring isn't even the right word, simply put, the game could be more fun and more dynamic.  

The basic argument is that more blatant clan conflict would result in more fun.  Conflict that is on a level more accessible to Joe recruit would be more interesting.  It isn't even suggesting that Joe recruit is going to win the conflict or even lead in the conflict, simply that he might actually participate in it and, perhaps more importantly, that the conflict would be apart of his life.

Right now, within clans as Joe recruit (or regular, sergeant, exc) conflict is not a major part of your day.  Conflict does not pervade every aspect of what your character does.  Quark can correct me if I am stuffing words into his mouth, but I believe that what he is saying is that, if you agree conflict is not a major part of most clanned character's life you agree with Quark's argument.

I think what people are reacting violently to is what Quark's argument implies.  I think most would agree that the life of the average clanned member is not filled with conflict.  It certainly happens from time to time when conflict does become the center of a character's life.  However, for the most part, as a Kuraci regular it is doubtful that you spend much time wondering what the Kadians are up to.  The implication of course to what Quark's argument is that conflict should be apart of a character's every day life and [/i] that there is a reasonable way to do it without breaking any of the points Sanvean and Bhagharva bring.

[jhunter]

My pc might know how to go about it but I the player do not know exactly, it would've been nice if I could actually get a bit more help as a player to get me started.

I guess what I'm saying is...in an independant clan I'd know what I was working with the make things happen. In an imm run clan only the imm knows what they have at their disposal if your new to it and I was trying to find that out. I don't think I received enough information.

[Ix Machina]

It's that you're not taking the right approach. In
Lots of stuff *snip*

This should be handled by email.

[Callisto]

Time for me to jump in.

Am I the only one who imagined him putting on a cape just to write that post?

[da mitey warrior]

Quirk is completely right in this, but the discussion has taken the wrong focus.  It doesn't matter if you, as a pc, can overthrow city states or turn yourself into a demon or corner the market on beer.  That's not the issue.  The issue is that there are no goals and the world is fairly static.

Most clans don't have goals.  Or at least, don't have goals which are clearly defined to the average grunt -- or even the average leader pc.  The result is that characters don't really have anything to strive for other than their own personal goals.

Think of the average noble guard.  His goals usually are something like:

1) Spar
2) Spar some more.
3) Guard your noble while he sits in a tavern a while.
4) Buy some cool armor from Salarr
5) Make pkill someone in an enemy clan.

His clan might have goals, but they are vaguely defined and he doesn't really have the authority to do anything.   Now, I know of this noble guard was played by a brilliant, couragous, experienced player they could come up with all sorts of things to strive for and know exactly how to do it.  But the average, or even experienced, player can't.  because it's hard.  It takes too high caliber a player to run a decent plot and there are rarely more than a handful of players capable of doing so.  

So as a result the average mediocre player either tries his best and comes up with something that's unrealistic/crazy/unimaginative or he gives up entirely and falls back on selfish self-advancement or even worse, gives up on the character all together.   My own last few characters have fallen into this same rut myself.

This is not the place for solutions, but I think everyone needs to recognize that it is a problem to be solved, and probably THE problem of the game right now.

And we shouldn't point fingers either.  The imms go to every length to try to give players stuff to do.  I've been in clans where imms have posted goals every single week (of which like 75% went unfufilled, heh).  It's more a structural problem with how clans are set up now.

[Thanos]

But the average, or even experienced, player can't.  because it's hard.  It takes too high caliber a player to run a decent plot and there are rarely more than a handful of players capable of doing so.  

I want to avoid this sounding like an insult, your thoughts are well articulated. My gut reaction to this however is... Grow better, Become a higher caliber player. Just like failure results in skill improval in game, it also tends to be a teacher regarding plots. Those of us who drive our own plots in game typicaly fail on a regular basis. The difference, in my oppinion, is that when we get smacked two steps back, we do two steps to the side and start walking forward again.

Now, that being said. Low level grunts. You should not be feeling the conflict between houses. You should likely feel the tensions within your own house politics more than you do your houses tensions with other powers. Why? Because as a low level grunt your position is trusted about as much as we trust a bahamet not to charge. And if we are concerned you are a spy from X, Y, or Z, why the hell would we put our true face on anything?

Your boredom however, is my concern. I will admit, I feel a certain backlash to this statement. However, if players are not having fun within my clan(speaking as a pc clan leader), it spurs me to make some changes, kick it up a notch so to speak. Voice your concerns on your own clan boards, and do it avoiding terms like ... "Dudes, cant we go find steinal and pick up some uber-cool lewt."

Anyway, its far too early, and I've gotten far too little sleep.
Thanos

[Bestatte]

Something I learned only recently - which shows MY learning curve <cough>

If you see certain RPers getting into stellar RP, or people you know who are the "movers and shakers" of the game...

WATCH THEM! Learn from them. If there is some IC reason for you to interact with them, do so. If it is at -all- possible, ask their character questions. Ask their player questions if you have the OOC opportunity. Not about the plotline itself, since that's IC info. But about their techniques in creating these plotlines. What do they do to get things started? What do they do to keep things moving? What do they -not- do, and why not?

No amount of advice on the GDB is going to help if you can't see it happen in the game. No IMM saying that if I'm bored it's because I'm not willing to take up the gauntlet is going to show me HOW to take up the gauntlet. No list of suggestions from well-meaning players is going to teach me how to implement those suggestions.

Learning it THROUGH the RP itself..that one spark of an idea that didn't occur until you were lucky enough to meet that character who would spark it for you...that's where the learning occurs. That is where we learn HOW to make things happen.

To the player of the character who sparked that idea, thank you! I hope it turns into something awesome, and expect that even if it doesn't, I'll have a ton of fun in the process - because that spark gave me a tool I didn't know I had previously.

[jmordetsky]

But the average, or even experienced, player can't.  because it's hard.  It takes too high caliber a player to run a decent plot and there are rarely more than a handful of players capable of doing so.  

I want to avoid this sounding like an insult, your thoughts are well articulated. My gut reaction to this however is... Grow better, Become a higher caliber player. Just like failure results in skill improval in game, it also tends to be a teacher regarding plots. Those of us who drive our own plots in game typicaly fail on a regular basis. The difference, in my oppinion, is that when we get smacked two steps back, we do two steps to the side and start walking forward again.

Now, that being said. Low level grunts. You should not be feeling the conflict between houses. You should likely feel the tensions within your own house politics more than you do your houses tensions with other powers. Why? Because as a low level grunt your position is trusted about as much as we trust a bahamet not to charge. And if we are concerned you are a spy from X, Y, or Z, why the hell would we put our true face on anything?

Your boredom however, is my concern. I will admit, I feel a certain backlash to this statement. However, if players are not having fun within my clan(speaking as a pc clan leader), it spurs me to make some changes, kick it up a notch so to speak. Voice your concerns on your own clan boards, and do it avoiding terms like ... "Dudes, cant we go find steinal and pick up some uber-cool lewt."

Anyway, its far too early, and I've gotten far too little sleep.
Thanos

Valid points. But a grunts boredom could easily be addressed without a letting them in on all the houses dealings. These goals could be given to the grunt by their leaders. But this again ties into the idea that there aren't enough (this may be the wrong word) logistical goals(?) for a house. For the most part, as jhunter stated, unless it's guarding a noble, or hanging in a tavern, being in a recruit, private, up to corporal in a house tends to be an exercise in hanging about and bullshitting with others. Which, as many have voiced, can be unsatisfactory.

My original instinct was to say deal with this by creating tangible conflict of interests between houses. Territorial disputes and such.

Now...I'm thinking, why not force the PCs in these mega houses to support the monopoly. For example, maybe each OC week introduce something tangible that *needs* to happen, by a set time in game. Maybe it's a caravan escort, maybe it's a trade deal with the blackwing...etc, etc.

I played in a house once with some absolutely top people, but hands down the best times were when something was handed down from the nobles (imms?) for the troops to accomplish.  Maybe the simple answer is that these just need to be more often and longer term?

2 cents. Again.

[Black Isis]

To those of you who say that low-level grunts shouldn't feel any of the tension between two Houses because they aren't trusted -- I posit that you are not being realistic.  Let me give an example.

During the Cold War, the tension varied between the United States and the Soviet Union, but it was always there.  However, the two countries never went to war themselves, always working through proxies -- but the possibility always existed for them to do so.

During this time, do you think that tension was not felt by individuals in the armed forces, diplomats, and spies?  If you were the guy sitting in the missile silo, the guy who is going to have to turn a key and vaporize 100,000 people, sure, almost every day you come in, you sit in the bunker for your shift, and then you go home, and nothing happens.  But there's always that possibility that something WILL happen, you WILL have to turn that key, and you WILL be partly responsible for the death of 100,000 people.

Likewise, if you're the guy sitting at Checkpoint Charlie, most of the time, you're just checking papers and waving cars through.  But there's always the possibility that one of these days, that guy on the other side of the border crossing is going to take out his assault rifle and gun you down.  Or that you are going to have to sit there and watch him cut down a family as they try to make a break through the checkpoint for West Berlin, and there's not going to be a damn thing you can do about it because they're still 3 feet from crossing the border.

If you're a diplomat and you get thrust into some negotiation with a friendly dictator who's having trouble with communist insurgents, you've always got to think about what the Soviet response to your maneuver is going to be.  What if they decide to escalate?  Can you take that chance?  Do you risk letting the dictator (who you may think is the most vile type of scum on the planet) get toppled, giving the enemy an ally right next door, or do you recommend that the US send him advanced equipment that might help (and risk that it might fall into enemy hands)?  If you aren't going to support the dictator, how the heck do you tell him that without him killing you (or turning to the enemy for help)?

In none of these situations does the person involved have any control over what the United States is really going to do -- they can't declare war on the Soviet Union, and even if they do something stupid, the worst it will probably cause is a bad diplomatic incident that will make the US lose face.  It's not going to cause the end of the free world, and they aren't going to singlehandedly topple the Soviet regime.  However, in each instance, they feel like they are part of something larger, because they know at least the vague aims of the West (and that aim is something more that self-perpetuation, which is what "make more money" is).  They all have personal goals -- that diplomat might want to run for political office later, for instance -- but there's other goals that they have been given by their superiors.  Secure the United States, halt Soviet expansion, keep the peace so we don't all die, keep an eye on the enemy....and all the time, in the back of their minds, the question of "what happens if I fail?"   "What happens if the shit DOES hit the fan?"  There's a visible opposition, a visible consequence.  Just because they are grunts, and just because the United States and the Soviets are not actually at war, does not mean they don't know SOMETHING is going on, or that there is a struggle occurring.

It's better to at least know THAT, than to train all day for no apparent reason.  Does the average grunt Kadius really know anything about even the vague aims of the House (as I said, "make more money" is not really a helpful goal, it's the business equivalent of "stay alive")?  In the case of Thrain's Ironswords, do you think he just went around finding dwarves and saying "hey, want to be in a big army?  We'll train all day to fight people!"  LoD can feel free to jump in here, but somehow I doubt that's what he told them.  I get the feeling it was something a little more inspirational.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough....I hope I've made SOME points in there somewhere....

[EvilRoeSlade]

If there are only three or four people that are actually managing to create plots and move the world, I can't imagine a more condenscending response than to say that its the fault of the overwhelming majority who are failing to do such.

But this post is not about that.  Not everybody can move the world, and we aren't asking for it to become easier.  Hell, if everybody could start their own clan or change the dynamics of a socio-political situation, then the game would probably suffer for it.

The post is about clan structure and the problems stemming from it.  Maybe we can't change the world, but we desire to change something.  Even if it is just finding enough food to allow your clan to survive for another few weeks.  Or hiring a skilled mercenary.  We don't want to make earth-shattering changes any more accessible, we just want conflict to take place at a level where it is both visible and moldable.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Yes ERS, I don't think that the criticisms of Quirk's thought are touching on the real issue here.  I would like to hear a more thoughtful negative response from those who are doing the criticising--because this thread shouldn't stop here, nothing's been resolved.

The same activity that seems petty in a large clan (e.g. gathering food, esp. if that clan has a cook), is anything -but- petty in a smaller clan (if you don't gather food, you'll die of starvation).  It's not the type of activity, but the meaning behind it.