Petty and Clan RP, House Competition and much much more

[EvilRoeSlade]

Just some more rhetoric.

[Kade]

Why not just get into a house, then convince some of the people there that to make more money we should take over a portion of other houses business?  use assassins and warriors to stop any uprisings, and take over the market.  That would introduce conflict for sure, and with the many people needed, more people would get involved.

Q.E.D.

[Chodo]

The problem is, when people try to do things like that they have to get permission from the higher ups, elders of the house. Every case I've ever heard of they were denied permission to take any such actions as they could cause trouble for the house...to me this shows no desire to grow further from any of them and is what causes the stagnation.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That wasn't my most insightful post.  Let me try again.

I suppose I am at a loss at why there is the feeling that either the creation of small groups, limitation of large groups and inclusion of Imms creating conflict is required at all by the players of Armageddon.  Every player is more than capable of creating small time conflict on a regular basis and has more than a good chance of seing reasonable goals realized.  I just don't understand this notion of dependence upon the Immortals for you to feel like you have some 'direction'.

I don't necessarily want to create small-time conflict, I just want that sort of conflict to be available.

I see the playerbase as a resource.  If they aren't involved in conflict that somehow affects me, then they are a resource that I can't make use of.  At this time, very little conflict affects me, no matter what type of character I play.  I have the idea that most conflict is out of the reach of most people.  Therefore, without proposing any solutions, I state that I consider there to be a problem.

When the T'zai Byn was trying to set up operations in Tuluk, I was in the T'zai Byn.  In fact I had two seperate characters in the T'zai Byn.  We killed some gortoks on the way to Tuluk once, in order to show how useful we could be to the Tuluki people, but that's all I saw of the plotline.  And we would have killed those gortoks anyway.

I was an Allanaki templar before Allanak was assaulted by Strange Forces from the rinth.  As far as my clan was concerned, the plotline only involved NPCs.  I was ordered to partake in something strange once, and I witnessed a strange occurance once.  I didn't know what the whole thing meant, and the NPCs involved refused to talk about it.  There was no direction I could progress in.  Involving my people in whatever was going on was right out.

When House Morlaine was trying to form, there was a time when I was Ysania's most senior employee.  She dealt with NPCs, I know that much.  She was involved in a lot of political stuff, all of which she refused to discuss with me.  There was a time when she told me that she needed metal.  I had a daring plan to get some, and it didn't even involve killing or stealing, but she would hear none of it.  All I did was what she asked me to do.  All she asked me to do was train her other people and get them bad-ass.

I was playing a wandering loner when I got enslaved by a supernatural entity.  That was pretty cool.  My mission got shot in the foot when it became necessary to find a player who never logged on, but it was cool for the brief time it lasted.  However, it was a plot far too ambitious to have much meaning to the tenuous lifespan of an unclanned wastelander.  If thats all I get for three years of playing time, then I don't think that it's enough.

[Anonymous]

If the entire game suddenly vanished so that the only place you could play was the 'rinth, as an elf, and no one could leave, I promise you that the conflict in the game would skyrocket, even though the collective will of the players couldn't do a single thing to really change the world.  I am not suggesting that as a solution, but it shows that the problem can be better solved without handing out a black robe to everyone who wants one.

How can I disagree with this statement? The reality of it is so plainly clear to me. Small characters.. influencing next to nothing but their own lives, being thrown together in a harsh environment that promotes conflict, tension, and perhaps crude politics. Alliances and enemies would be formed, nameless communities would band together, fall apart... it sounds very appealing to me, and maybe even sounds appealing to some of you reading this message. It also sounds like a proposal (in my opinion) of what Armageddon -could- be, and maybe even what its original vision was. This is not to say that I feel Armageddon isn't the harshest, most intriguing RP MUD out there, but I do feel that it could benefit greatly from certain changes.

How many times have you jumped into an on-line game that you've never played before, checked out all the possible niches you'd be interested in exploring with your character, only to end up choosing one you thought you'd never take, drawn to it because very few players have ever tried that route to date? The idea of struggling to succeed at a profession that has of yet not made a great impact on the playerbase can be a tempting proposition for some. You would need to build a foundation to work your trade from, or whatever it is your profession is capable of marketing, be it death, coin, goods, information, entertainment, whatever..  it's a chance to be a pioneer and live day to day through successes and failures. Competition might need to be wiped out, you may need to hire people for specific purposes, to steal information, to kill people, to advertise, to harvest resources or to protect your interests. You'd be still such a tiny operation, but there are plenty of people out there who'd be excited to take part in something that has potential.. where OOCly and ICly those players (and characters) know that the "group" they're trying to make prosper depends a lot on their own successes and failures.

With that imagery in mind, let's stop and take a look at present-day Armageddon. Quirk made a list of all the crafts which are covered by major Houses as a monopoly. Fledgling starter groups are stamped out by the Houses for several different reasons, as Quirk has clearly outlined in previous messages. The Houses sit atop a mountain of VNPCs that are untouchable at the highest levels of power, and unseen at the lowest level of raw manpower. Players are asked to grasp the concept of thousands of VNPCs and recognize these virtual people are the reason their PC cannot advance very quickly or make huge gambles for power (potentially thrilling or clan-defining events for smaller PC driven groups). The final result is that House clan life (in my opinion based on these observations and play experience) can often be less interesting to the average low-ranking member than it might be in a smaller clan composed of individual PCs who each play a significant role in that clan's survival. Even PCs who die within a smaller clan are given a larger opportunity to pass on their legacies and memories to those who follow in their footsteps, as the clan retains a close-knit recollection of stories passed on from PC member to PC member, instead of 99.9% of every PC who's ever died in a House clan being forgotten shortly after death, their name becoming another one of the hundreds of thousands of dead clan members composed of VNPCs and PCs alike over the course of the game.

Nowhere have I seen Quirk petition that earth-shaking events should be more reachable to the average PC. Not once have I seen him state that you can't create a successful player-driven event in the game universe (thank you LoD for that extremely well-written guide to creating player-driven events). I feel Quirk's initial statement just serves as an arrow which points at the current clan structure of the game,  proposing that the current design -may- be having a negative impact on some aspects of the game.

There are a few people from the older days of Arm (ten years back or more) that believe there was "more happening" in the past, and I don't think this is an uncommon opinion. One of the interesting points of note is that back then, there were also a lot more player-formed groups and communities. I remember individual merchants making huge profits, living out of wagons, and I remember powerful individuals becoming leaders of large PC groups. It could be that as more and more Houses continued to pop into existence, things started to change. Or maybe not. It could be that everything is exactly the way it was before, and Quirk is imagining things, I'm imagining things, and every other person who agrees with us is imagining things due to the infamous failed experience or perhaps player laziness... or just bad luck. That's possible. But Quirk's proposal is addressing the possibility that there is a problem, and asking for opinions. So here's my opinion.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

That last post wasn't meant to be anonymous.

[Kade]

The problem is, when people try to do things like that they have to get permission from the higher ups, elders of the house. Every case I've ever heard of they were denied permission to take any such actions as they could cause trouble for the house...to me this shows no desire to grow further from any of them and is what causes the stagnation.

Gah!  Someone should assassinate those elders of the house then.  For the good of Arm.  Let's put all the blame of not much large scale conflict in the game on them, then start merchant house wars.  Kill the Elders!

[da mitey warrior]

I think one of the best designed clans in the game in the T'zai Byn, in many ways.   This is partly because of it's clerly defined goals (making money) and it's fairly small size.  When the clan has a goal (such as starting a new base) the whole player base is involved with it.

The byn's politics is't the super-elite-secret-that-no-one-knows-about variety, it's all out in the open and something that even the lowest runner (if he cares) knows about.  Whether it's byn vs blackmoon, byn vs northlands or byn vs the rinth, byn vs deserters or even unit vs unit, the whole pc side of the clan is involved.  Even if they arn't leaders, they are at least there and usually see the evidence of the conflict.

It's a whole different set up than most clans, where grunts do nothing for a long while, then one day your boss tells you "Oh, by the way, there's a war tommorow. Come with us."

[Pantoufle]

The problem is, when people try to do things like that they have to get permission from the higher ups, elders of the house. Every case I've ever heard of they were denied permission to take any such actions as they could cause trouble for the house...to me this shows no desire to grow further from any of them and is what causes the stagnation.

Gah! Someone should assassinate those elders of the house then. For the good of Arm. Let's put all the blame of not much large scale conflict in the game on them, then start merchant house wars. Kill the Elders!

Firstly, I do not believe it is the purpose of any merchant or noble House to romp around killing the next.  Many of these organizations, while competing with one another, rely on the other's services.  Doing them in would be a very bad move.  That does not mean murder and assassinations cannot exist, nor does it mean conflict cannot exist without killing.

I simply cannot believe the staff will not support these sorts of activities whatsoever.  Not in a MUD where murder, corruption, and betrayal is the very foundation of what the game stands for.  Maybe your attempts to retaliate another party are halted by the staff because you haven't realized your House has very close ties with the other individual's.  Or maybe it's just that your approach is wrong.  If some clan imm told me flat out, "No you can't do that", I sure as shit am going to follow up and ask a) why can't I? and b) if I cannot do X then how about Y?  And I'm going to press the matter until I'm either able to do as I had planned or there are no alternatives and have to find a different goal.  But unless you've exhausted every avenue, don't immediately assume the staff simply do not want you to do ... whatever it is you're hoping to do.  I have to believe that, more often than not, it's simply the approach that is in question and not the action itself.

[Pantoufle]

Actually, just to add to that... if you are playing a special role such as a family merchant, noble or templar, then you had better expect your actions to be watched with a shrewd eye and for many of your plans to be shot down.  That does not mean you cannot do anything at all but it's sort of like being a salesman where you have to get used to hearing the word 'No' more often than 'Yes'.  You gotta be persistant with that shit in order to accomplish what you've set out to do.

[Delirium]

Could this thread be archived?  It's got a lot of good food for thought.

[jstorrie]

I've yet to meet a noble who's goals were anything but simply rising up in position in their clan.  The typical noble has no clue how to promote the interests of her house, from what I can tell.

The last time I tried playing a noble, I attempted to promote the interests of his house. It was the only particularly interesting thing about the role, but other PCs were not interested in participating.

[Kalden]

Anyone else see a trend here? Players say we need change, staffers say we don't.

Joe Random Commoner should have good chances of entering a small-to-medium-sized group of merchants and in time rising to preside over their Red Storm operations, or opening a new shop in Tuluk, or whatever.

That's also a lot more work for the staff and players. It's easier to sit around, socializing mindlessly and spam-crafting on ocassion for no real benefits. Or, if you're a "noble's guard", sparring endlessly and strutting around in your armor.

[Naiona]

The player of a noble or templar in either of my clans has unlimited potential to move up in rank, all the way to Senator or Red Robe if they do it in an IC-logical and reasonable fashion.

Most players are not willing to put in the IC years that it takes to gain such prestige and rank, but I can name at least two times in the past six months we've had someone on the very verge of an important promotion until they suddenly died or something else happened to stop it.  The players certainly never knew that it was about to, but it would have happened if not for circumstance.

[Armaddict]

Anyone else see a trend here? Players say we need change, staffers say we don't.

Just saw this, and wanted to...expound.  How many players see the big picture, really?  Do -any- of us have long-term, birds-eye view of things that happen in game?  Seriously.

[Anonymous]

I've yet to meet a noble who's goals were anything but simply rising up in position in their clan. The typical noble has no clue how to promote the interests of her house, from what I can tell.

Because...... they are egocentric? Yes, yes.... that's it - a very noble quality!

Dirr