Petty and Clan RP, House Competition and much much more

[Seeker]

I don't think resolutions are part of this thread.  Quirk's stated purpose in the opening post is to see if his clearly stated assertions are generally perceived to be an accurate assessment of the state of affairs.

I'm hesitant to reword what he already stated so clearly, but I will give it as fair a shot as I can, so that I can be corrected, and understand better.

1) The current large clan stucture of Armageddon is essentially static.  By their very nature and structure they are extremely difficult to change, and very difficult for any PC to leave any lasting impact on.
2) Being a member of a larger clan removes PCs from the harshness and the day to day struggle for survival which is a vital component of the experience of Zalanthas.
3) Large, essentially static clans usually limit quality RP opportunities much more than they provide them.  Leaders generally cannot make significant decisions regarding the direction of the clan and therefore cannot provide meaningful or interesting goals to their employees.  Rank and file members are simply too far removed from larger clan conflicts.
4) Members of large clans take an inappropriate interest in squashing smaller player-run groups, PKing over minor issues, and other oddities because of being otherwise limited in their choices of RP opportunities.

and some side issues.

5) Large clan play, high society, is currently too dominant a part of the game, and is exclusionary to many character concepts.
6) Armageddon, in general, is not as open to as it used to be for PCs to become wildly, improbably successful.

I really hope that is a fair restatement.

I agree with #1, #2 but don't necessarily see them as a problems that need to be solved.  

I disagree with #3 on a few points, and still think a creative player can do things that are wildly fun that could never have been accomplished without being part of one of these large clans.

I don't know about #4 or #5, or #6; I can't see the big-enough picture. Maybe problems.  Maybe needs adjustment.  Just don't know.


Seeker

[Stroker]

Though it is quite exciting to change or be a part of the change, it is not always likely or reasonable. How likely is it that a janitor in some multi-million business will be involved in giant plotlines to take over the market? I do believe it is quite unlikely. In the same way, a lowly guard in Salarr may only be a pawn, and unless they survive long enough (which is hard) or prove themselves, they will never achieve any important position within the clan.

Petty goals? All people are selfish, first comes their own desires and then the desires of their respective clan. Do you think a pampered noble will give much thought as to the enrichment of his house's lands or power? Especially at the low ranking position they begin with?

The reason why imm acceptance is required to continue forth with plots is quite simple. The imms represent the higher ranking positions of any organization. Therefore, if your lowly noble wants to acomplish something, s/he cannot act without the permission of his/her superiors.

In response to Quirk's original post: if you think that an expanding business will be ignored by a monopoly .... you're not thinking realistically. The occasional independent merchant in the market may pose absolutely no threat, but an organization that expands to threaten the monopoly will be surely eliminated. I think if you expect to start from scratch and become a power-house you need to remember that things won't always flow smoothly for you. This is, afterall, a harsh world. You want more clan versus clan hostility. Isn't a monopoly crushing some business also a type of conflict?

[Akaramu]

Now this is definitely archive material... for the LoD quotes alone, and many more thoughts that I found interesting and helpful.

[Rindan]

In response to Quirk's original post: if you think that an expanding business will be ignored by a monopoly .... you're not thinking realistically. The occasional independent merchant in the market may pose absolutely no threat, but an organization that expands to threaten the monopoly will be surely eliminated. I think if you expect to start from scratch and become a power-house you need to remember that things won't always flow smoothly for you. This is, afterall, a harsh world. You want more clan versus clan hostility. Isn't a monopoly crushing some business also a type of conflict?

I would tend to disagree and offer up the Allanaki bazaar as a simple counter argument.  In the Bazaar you can find plenty of arms and armor that is not sold under Salarr.  You can find plenty mid range clothing not sold by Kadius.  You can find tons of desert gear not sold by Kurac.  The point of those merchant monopolies is not to crush everything in the same field.  It doesn't do any good and is not worth the time, money, and effort to do so.  If you spend all of your time and money assassinating and intimidating every single merchant in a city of a few hundred thousand, not only are you going to have militia pissed off for having your employees acting like the law, but you will have wasted large hunks of money fighting a pointless battle.

The monopoly the big houses hold is with the rich and powerful organizations.  Kadius does not give two shits of Joe commoner dirt sells a cotton shirt to Jan commoner dirt.  Salarr doesn't care if Joe dirt chips a knife out of obsidian and sells it.  So long as they are not selling bulk orders to large organizations, the big merchant houses are not likely to react with something as foolish (and expensive) as assassination, which I think is the point some people miss.  If as a merchant house member you think it is your duty to crush every single independent merchant who sells things that are technically in your houses monopoly, might I suggest burning down every single market and Bazaar in the known world.

[spawnloser]

I finally have to throw my support here somewhere...

Yes, the PCs of the different merchant clans getting all pissed off and assassinating every little indpendant is ridiculous.  Fucking get over it.

The problem, going back to Quirk's beef, however, is unsolvable by the players, and therein lies the problem.  Players have their own goals (defined as petty goals by Quirk) and there are House goals.  With no direction/feedback from the higher ups in the House, no PC will be able to accomplish the latter, but will be able to happily trundle along trying to accomplish the prior.

There needs to be more communication coming down from above for those things to chance, but the IMMs are busy people and do what they can.  I am not saying the general state of affairs is bad, but little things can change here and there...but it will take some effort.  If you think things need to change, make the effort to change it.  See what happens.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

About independent merchants:

I would like to say that I agree that it would in theory make sense for merchant Houses to assassinate/intimidate their competition.  Who knows about the bazaar, it's possible that every two-bit weapons dealer there gives a portion of their profits to Salarr to avoid getting beat up.  I'm not sure you can use the bazaar as a counter-example.  

-But- I think there are other good reasons why the Houses wouldn't mess with the independents, at least not openly.  And that reason, in my opinion, is House Nenyuk.  Nenyuk would side very strongly with the independents because any sort of economic growth is good for Nenyuk, being the only bank in the world.  Nenyuk just wants to see growth, it doesn't care who has what market share of what product--it just wants more coins.  In fact, it would be better for Nenyuk if the market (for weapons, say) is divided up among many little independents--these people 1) have little to no power to resist "bank errors" in Nenyuk's favor, 2) have no place else to keep their money except in the bank.  In other words, whatever sid they own collectively is just about completely under Nenyuk's control.  This isn't quite as true for a Merchant or Noble House.  I believe that Nenyuk would want to see these Houses eliminated (yes, even the noble ones) , but of course that's a very long-term and not realistic goal.  

So, to sum up: I think independents should be harassed by the large Houses, but another House should step in to protect them.  I don't know how this would be role-played out in practice, but that's how I see things happening.

[Stroker]

In response to the last few posts: In case there was some confusion about my last paragraph, I'd like to reword my ideas better, if possible. In fact, I wrote that the powerful houses will not go after the small independent merchants and traders found through and around the bazaars and markets. As truly, the may not be strong competition. While on the other hand, a small business that can rival and diminish the profits of the house may become a threat. Clearly, if a merchant house is murdering every merchant in their market, that would just be ridiculous.

[jhunter]

I think that Rindan is correct about this. It doesn't make much sense that these enormous merchant houses would give two shits about some small company unless they begin to directly infringe upon their business by taking the large orders away from them.

A small clan numbering about twenty people or so...and a merchant house would actually take notice of them and considered them a threat?
How small do some of you picture these merchant houses?

It's like Wal-mart stepping in and crushing Little Podunk Joe's dollar store.

Completely ridiculous IMHO.

[JollyGreenGiant]

It's like Wal-mart stepping in and crushing Little Podunk Joe's dollar store.

Odd that you should mention that as an example of a merchant not caring about the little guys.  It is well documented that the first thing that happens when Wal-Mart moves into a small town is they underprice all of the local competition out of business.

[Anonymous]

Right, they do it by beating them out because they are bigger and can afford to. This is what IMO, that a merchant house would do, rather than risk any trouble for their house by killing off the small independants.

It's not something that's targeted specifically at one group of the little people, but affects them all the same, they either adapt or go out of business.

I highly doubt that Wal-mart specifically targets one particular small business out of all of those out there.

[Tamarin]

You can't compare WalMart to merchant houses.  The houses make 95% of their money supplying wares to the noble houses, and the members of the militia/legion in BULK.  Selling to commoners and individuals is small potatoes, and anyone who starts in on their own craft will fall under the radar, because no individual or small group could supply a huge amount of supplies like a merchant house can.

[jhunter]

My whole point is, a large business isn't going to pay much attention to a smaller business unless it grows to the point of being able to compete.

And yes, as I had already stated and I believe someone else said as well, most of the independants aren't going to deal in bulk anywhere near the size of business that the merchant houses are, if they did then I could see them catching the attention of the merchant houses...but not until then.


I've seen exactly the opposite happen in game and IMO, it's really unrealistic.

[Angela Christine]

Does Cartier or Macy's send assassins after the guy selling $10 watches and home-made jewelery on the corner?

Does Victoria's Secret send thugs to beat up the owners of every little underwear boutique?

Does Microsoft try to drive every little Mom and Pop softwear start-up out of buisness?  

Well, you get the idea.  :roll:


AC

[Tamarin]

Does Microsoft try to drive every little Mom and Pop softwear start-up out of buisness?

Don't ask silly questions....of course it does.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Sure, all of those examples (Macy's, Victoria's Secret, etc.) are true, but then again those companies don't have a state sanctioned monopoly like Salarr and Kadius do.  What do these monopolies mean if they can't crack down on people who break them?  I think that Kadius would want a portion of every moderately successful clothing maker's profits.

Now, I agree that killing them is rediculous...I'm thinking more along the lines of: "You join us, or pay us 20% of all your profits."  If they don't pay, then you might have to think about what to do next.  

Definately, how these monopolies function and how independents are able to still work and profit openly under them is yet to be fleshed out.

[LoD]

The power to accomplish goals lay squarely in your hands.

Because of this truth, the responsibility attached lay with you as well.  And if anyone has a problem with the way that a given clan operates, then it is my definite belief that you simply need to adapt your thinking.

Goals in Armageddon are VERY reachable, but like so many people have stated, they don't just happen overnight.  Nor can they be so far from the IC standard that it borders on downright silliness.  The problem is not that the goals cannot exist, but that more players (and perhaps Imms) do not take the time to develop, create and pursue them in the realistic and dedicated manner they warrant.

I hear so many people complain that guards having nothing to do,  soldiers having nothing to fight for, merchants have no care for commerce other than the big deals.  To those of you who offer no solutions, I say that you are simply part of the problem.  And that is fine - not everyone is meant to be a leader of men, a creative thinker, or a driver of plots.  Chiefs need Indians.

But I think your will has been so broken by a few failed attempts that you have either given up, or become jaded with the fact that there's no such thing as a 'free lunch'.  And perhaps some of you may say, 'I've tried.  I really have.  I did everything I could and still I floundered.'  And that may be the honest truth.  But it's a truth that you, yourself, need to examine and determine if the fault lay with the clan in question, or with your ability to make something happen.

We can't all do everything.  Let's say I want to be an Olympic athlete.  I can WANT to run fast all I want, but if I'm just not good enough and dedicated enough to do it, I'm not going to be showing up on your TV screen for any Olympic trials.

Clans -are- rigid because of their extensive game history, relations that have been forged and tested over the years.  They have a definite chain of command, the higher levels of which are difficult (sometimes near impossible) to attain and often controlled in whole or part by Immortal(s) in charge of said clan.  They are there, IMHO, to make sure that the clan is operated in congruence with the clan documentation and in a fashion seen fit by those NPC and VNPC entities that sit at the head of the table.

That being said, it is -not- impossible to change things with enough time, effort and planning involved.  Petty goals, Clan goals - any goals can be accomplished this way.  If you wanted to set a goal of 'I want to live forever' then you're going to have a LOT of work ahead of you, and I would place your likelihood of achieving the goal somewhere less than 1%.

That is why you need to set realistic goals, both for yourself and for your clan.  And here are some basic rules of thumb I use for setting them:

1. Involve people.  Create a goal that will include as many players from your own clan as possible and include steps that require both combat and non-combat roles.  Imms will support a goal more readily if it involves a lot of other players, even if it is only within one clan.

2. Draw inside the lines.  Create a goal within the guidelines of both the MUD and clan documentation which does not blatently go against their best wishes, common practices or established laws. (i.e. Coming up with a new style of mount for pulling wagons that grants your clan a special advantage in that field might be good whereas plotting to kill every family member in attempt to take over the operation would not be as good.)

3. Add to the game.  Create a goal that has an end goal that can be both appreciated by a wide variety of players and fill a NEED in the game.  Something that the game does not yet have, or needs more of.

4. Less work, better success. Create a goal that requires the least amount of Immortal intervention and work possible.  If it requires work that you can do in advance, then you do as much as humanly possible.  This will increase your chances of seeing it done.  I guarantee that an Imm will look much more closely at your proposal if it has been well thought out and designed ahead of time than if you are depending on them to do it all for you.  This would include writing up rooms, objects, NPC's, scripts, documentation, backgrounds, etc...

5. Plan to work, then work your plan.  This is not an overnight gig, or even something you should expect to happen in a RL month or two.  This might be something you need to commit to for several months or even years depending upon the outcome of your proposal.  There are going to be pitfalls, setbacks, challenges and problems that arise which many people see as Imms telling them 'no.'  My simple suggestion is not to accept that if you feel strongly enough about your actions and find another route to take.  There are many roads leading to the same city, so don't be discouraged when one is closed to you.  I mean, if your goal is trying to get home for Christmas and the highway you normally take is closed for repairs, do you just shrug and say, 'There's always next year.'?  No, you probably figure out another way to go about accomplishing your task.  The same can be done in Armageddon.

Clan goals can be formed and realized within the game we all play today.  The question is how badly do YOU want to see it happen.  There may need to be some growing up to do, learning, reading, planning, writing and other serious investments of your time as well as tests of your character to see if you really have it in you to accomplish these things.  They are no easy feat.

My challenge to YOU naysayers is to prove me wrong.  Follow each of the steps I have laid out before you and prove to me that you CANNOT accomplish your mission rather than WILL NOT.  I'd be more than welcome to offer any advice or suggestions to a goal you may have in mind for the game.  Nothing IC, of course, just a basic premise and how you may want to go about it.

I have formed four clans, beseiged a city-state, controlled an economic empire, created an entire branch of a major clan and done so within the confines of the game and by the rules set forth by the Immortals.  The last of these was done not more than a RL year ago, so it IS possible.

It was long ago that I took my first step toward accomplishing goals.

I invite you now to take that same step and see what you can create in this truly awesome and rich environment we call Armageddon.

-LoD

[Dan]

Well said Snarf.

[Rindan]

LoD, I completely agree with nearly everything you say.  All your points are correct and you have outlined a path for people who want to lead and make a difference in the world.  However, I think that while you are completely correct, I think it is missing perhaps the more subtle implication of Quirk's original point.  Leading is hard.   It is not just hard in that it takes will, but it is hard in that it takes real OOC time.  To move as deep into the game as you suggest pretty much means forfeiting large hunks of your real life.  Some people can accomplish this, but most can not, not through lack of will, but simply because of lack of time.

The counter argument is that while there certainly is a way to accomplish a world filled with conflict, the very nature of the system demands too many resources from the players.  The barriers are so high that only a select few have the OOC resources to even make the attempt.  So, while the current system certainly works, a more reasonable system could potentially work better.  A structure that generates more conflict on its own and is less of a struggle to get things moving would be better.

Certainly, conflict and clan goals can be created in today's system, but why not at least explore ways to make conflict creation easier?  I think it would be naïve to assume that any system is the best it possibly could be.  Further, I think this is such a fundamentally important piece of the game that it is worthwhile to work towards making it better, more fluid, and more open.  Sure, one could devote time and energy to other parts of the game, and I imagine any part of the game you pick could improve upon in some way, but this piece of the game is so fundamental to everyone's enjoyment that I think it really deserves a look.

I think Quirk's point was, and again I might just be stuffing words in his mouth, is that there is room for improvement, and that is the first step to looking for a better way.  Understand that there is room for improvement and begin to identify the areas that are the most troubling.  I think this thread has done an excellent job identifying those areas.  I don't think there is any shame at taking the next step in kicking around ideas as to how to improve in the areas identified as most worthy of attention.  It isn't kicking down the current system as being bad, but acknowledging that it could be better.  I have had some excellent times in the current system, but I don't doubt for a second that there is room for improvement and that at least considering ways to improve upon it be a worthwhile use of time.

Edited to remove Star Trek references

[Black Isis]

I was reading one o my books on game architecture and design this morning on the way to work an found a quote I think is rather fitting this discussion....

"When men have a mission, they arrange matters to accomplish it.  Without one, they don't."

All that we peons are asking for is some slightly more specific goals than "make some money," and cut us in on some of the bigger plots in SOME way (hell, we don't even have to know that what we are doing is necessarily related).  Don't hide everything.  If I don't know something exists, and it isn't influencing my daily life in SOME way, even if it's just a small nagging fear or doubt at the back of my mind, it might as well not be happening.  Telling me there's all these great secrets doesn't sway me if they mean nothing.  I don't care if Jihae is actually made of green cheese if I'm never going to be able to fly there.

[Twilight]

There needs to be something for those characters that are exceptional, that not everyone is going to get to do.  Ever.  And by exceptional, I don't mean the top 20% of characters, or 10% or 5%.  Maybe the top .5% but probably fewer than that.

To give an example, Sanvean stated she had seen what, 5 characters become elementals?  Over how many years?  How many players started a character with the potential to be one, and would have liked to become one, and how many actually did?  Not a lot.  In fact, an extremely small percentage.

That is the kind of percentage of people who get to have a powerful voice in a House, become an uber black robed templar, be the most powerful criminal in Allanak, etc.  Only characters that are truly exceptional ever get to do those things and the fact of the matter is that most players will never have one of those characters.  Sorry, deal.

The flip side is that it becomes an incredibly cool experience when you get to wield that kind of influence, in part because it is so extremely rare.  Some players, whether it be because they know the game better, have more time OOC'ly, are just a great damn RP'er, or whatever the reason is, are going to be more likely to get into those positions, and might get into several, might accomplish more with their characters.

I'd rather see people focus less on changing the system, which I personally enjoy, and focus more on how they can have that kind of character, if that is what they want.  Most players won't ever have much influence though, much like most VNPCs and NPCs don't have much influence.  Hmmm, go figure.

[Quirk]

I'm at a loss why people repeatedly mistake the suggestions made here for something different altogether.

Acknowledging that the problem of most players feeling uninvolved in their clans, or that their clans do not seem to have clear goals visible to the lower rungs is in fact a problem is one thing. Suggesting that players should easily be able to derail these lumbering behemoth Houses is quite another; it's not one that's I've advocated nor most of those who've written on the problem.

Rindan is quite correct in assuming that my favoured solution would be to see more imm-led clans of smaller size that players can actually have a real effect on in a timescale that better fits with the average lifespan of a character. He's quite correct in everything but my name, actually. I didn't wish to see this thread blunder off into discussing the merits of different solutions, though, so I asked at the beginning that it remain focused on deciding the problem.

Joe Random Commoner should have good chances of entering a small-to-medium-sized group of merchants and in time rising to preside over their Red Storm operations, or opening a new shop in Tuluk, or whatever. The chances of him having a large impact on House Kadius should be negligible; no-one disputes that. As things are however, either Joe can have a minimal impact on a large House after many RL months of working at it, or start a player-run clan from scratch and attempt to build it into one of those small-to-medium-sized clans. Neither option leaves much room for Joe to engage in conflict outside of that orbiting his own personal goals, and conflict is the lifeblood of RP. Oh, player-run clans can indulge in such conflict, but usually, as most other organisations containing PCs are immensely larger in VNPC terms, they end up coming into conflict with a clan whose resources dwarf their own, and the conflict is short, bloody and brutal.

I don't wish to see the huge Houses done away with totally any more than I wish to see starting from scratch made harder. Those few who join them and gradually work up to making an impact are welcome to continue doing so. I would like to see a larger number of inbetween clans emerge, larger than player-run clans but smaller than the Houses, clans of the size of the Byn or Atrium.

I should write a lengthy post about now on possible solutions; unfortunately, life has been leaving me somewhat busy of late, and I'll have to fit it in when I have more time. For the moment, please be assured that I am not trying to make world-changing actions more easily attainable for PCs.

Quirk

[Rindan]

That is the kind of percentage of people who get to have a powerful voice in a House, become an uber black robed templar, be the most powerful criminal in Allanak, etc.  Only characters that are truly exceptional ever get to do those things and the fact of the matter is that most players will never have one of those characters.  Sorry, deal.

I think you are missing the original point.  The point was that it is a struggle to get to the conflict in the game for most characters.  True, those higher level characters are more exposed to conflict, but that doesn't immediately mean that the solution is for more players to be those high level players.  The solution isn't even to have more players pushed into leadership positions or positions of grand far sweeping power.  The original point of the thread was to point out that there is a lack of conflict in most character's lives.

Now, as to the actual solutions, they are many that could potentially be discussed.  Making the assumption that the only solution involves more PCs at the top of massive world altering organization is just a bad assumption.  For instance, the alternative could be to do the exact opposite and make character's lives MORE meaningless in the grand scheme of things.  If the entire game suddenly vanished so that the only place you could play was the 'rinth, as an elf, and no one could leave, I promise you that the conflict in the game would skyrocket, even though the collective will of the players couldn't do a single thing to really change the world.  I am not suggesting that as a solution, but it shows that the problem can be better solved without handing out a black robe to everyone who wants one.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There needs to be something for those characters that are exceptional, that not everyone is going to get to do.  Ever.  And by exceptional, I don't mean the top 20% of characters, or 10% or 5%.  Maybe the top .5% but probably fewer than that.

The whole point of the thread isn't what you imply, it is that the rest of us want something too.

[naatok]

*sigh*

I hate to say I don't like seeing all the fuss back and forth, with folks feeling a personal affront, or the need to state things provocatively, or respond thusly....but I don't like seeing it.

Yeah, I have a small shred of common decency, no matter how hard I try to destroy it.  So here's my advice to folks who see the clan-view of ArmageddonMud as stagnant and impossible....to change or adapt to:

Stick around.

I've been addicted to this mud for twelve freakin' years of my life.  I've seen alot of shit go down, IC, and not a small bit of it was world-shaking and changing in some way.  And almost ALL of it was started by player characters.  Often those PCs weren't around to see the fruition of their plans of glory, but someone was....because players took the time, thought and effort to make plans that would stand the test of time....that would turn other players on so they would want to be involved and help to make it happen.  They built their better mousetrap in layers, not pieces, so that the plans they laid the foundation of were easier for other players and their PCs to grasp, and to build upon.  

Honestly, I can't count the number of plots and subplots I've seen succeed and grow because of all this.  All of them player created, player driven and player fulfilled.  Maybe not the same player throughout....but dammit, that's what a Master Plan is all about!  Something that will grow and have a life of its own....regardless of the outcome of a single PCs failed and miserable life (or that PC's player's failed and miserable life!).

I've been party to a few very long term and very successful plans, plots, what-ever you wanna call 'em.  Every single one of them succeeded and changed Zalanthas in some non-minor way.  Not because of the heroic feats of one lone individual PC, but because that lone PC with the brains was able to gather enough brawn around his or her operation to get the job done....regardless of what personally happened to the planner.

I've also seen just as many...if not more earth-quaking plans fall into ruin, virtually unnoticed and unheeded by the vast PC population of ArmageddonMud.  The difference between failure and success of each is part luck, part hard work, part excellent planning, and part willingness to change in order to fit the overall IC realism of Zalanthas.

What others have said before in this thread....on both sides...contain some excellent nuggets of wisdom.  However, alot of this thread has been repetitive bitching/slamming ad nauseum.

You wanna change the world?  First...ask yourself 'why'?  Is it because of something IC that you as a player consider wrong or lamentable?  Is it because you want to carve your name into the bedrock of Zalanthas?  Is it because you think you have a really cool idea and you want to see it in the game?  That's all well and good, but to be viable, a plan for a virtual world HAS to be realistic, and achievable and demonstrable and attractive TO THAT WORLD!

We all have these desires.  A successful plan for change is rooted in wishful desire, tempered by the flames of adversity and struggle, molded by time, blue-printed with pride AND humility...and a willingness to view a bigger picture and think inclusively, covered in fascinating garb or decor, and surrounded by the will and the work of others who are stirred by it to become part of it...to see it work.  Not just because we players...as humans in the real world....want to carve our name on the biggest tree in the forest...but because we want others to see that tree...bearing our mark...and collectively agree that it belongs in that forest.  That it isn't a mutant and should be cut down a few years after it was planted and epigraphed.  A successful such 'change the world plan' tree will have many others wanting to carve their names into it as well.  And dammit, Zalanthas will be a better virtual world for that tree having been in it!

Just some thoughts from a naughty monkey   :evil:

[LoD Snarf]

I suppose I am at a loss at why there is the feeling that either the creation of small groups, limitation of large groups and inclusion of Imms creating conflict is required at all by the players of Armageddon.  Every player is more than capable of creating small time conflict on a regular basis and has more than a good chance of seing reasonable goals realized.  I just don't understand this notion of dependence upon the Immortals for you to feel like you have some 'direction'.

The documentation has plenty of opportunity for you to 'choose' a direction and make it so.  We're not all school children standing in a yard waiting for Big Brother to pick us up and tell us what to do.  I would imagine that most of Armageddon's players consider themselves to be above the average in creativity, intelligence and education.  Why then is there such a problem with everyone not knowing what they are supposed to be doing?

Is it because everyone fears that the Imms will tear them assunder if they think for themselves and come up with a realistic plan?

Is it because people have had previous plans rejected and now feel like they are unable to do anything without Immortal assistance/approval?

I PREFER an environment where the Immortals assist with the player driven plots, and add to the atmosphere and the background, lending assistance and direction where needed if and when the plan may veer form what may be considered IC or in line with the will of the greater world.

I think that the players SHOULD have more control over what goes on, and over what they can do.  You want smaller groups to achieve reachable goals within the lifetime of your character, then consider you part of the Merchant House as a 'unit' or a division of which PC's represent the majority of its makeup.  When your PC's die off, do poorly or cause waves, then your division needs to set some goals and get some things done.  The HOUSE isn't poor, your division may just be poorly managed or poorly led.

The Byn is a perfect example of how I think other clans should view their PC's in relation to the greater whole.  You are part of a 'unit' that is associated with the clan, but does not by any means represent the WHOLE or even MAJORITY of the clan.   Merchants, guards, hunters, crafters can all work in a small group within the larger clan to achieve small goals within the larger scheme.  You just need a little creativity and the drive to get it going.

Of course there are exceptions where the goals of the House are not known to everyone or in the documentation, but there should be some givens and some basics that people can always assume are IC and part of the greater good.  If you have a question, email the Imm Staff and ask for a simple clarification on what they see your 'unit' or 'division' of the clan accomplishing.  I would also certainly advise making your own proposals based on this fact.

Players want more fun, so give it to them.  You don't need an Imm to tell you that you should go to location 'x' and bring back 'y' hides because we are going to try and put out a new line of armor next year.  Write up a proposal and give it a try.  Involve people, take the hunters and guards on your treks to find these goods, make it into something big that everyone can enjoy and take a part in.

The world is so customizeable in way of your direction that I simply cannot fathom not knowing what to do, or how to do it.  You can do anything, you just need to follow the appropriate measures and see it through.

So, to make a comment more directly related to Quirk's desire to see more imm-led small groups of players, I say that is already the case and that the fault is not on the shoulders of the game, the Imms or the structure, but in the players' own motivation and perception.

-LoD