Reinstating the karma timer

[Dracul]

Thought on reinstating the karma timer? Do we want to have this as a player discussion (imms)?

[Yelinak]

For races and magicker subclasses, yes, I think this is in order. There are just too many karma races and magickers, to put it plainly.

For mundane subs, no, and I think these should be made 0-karma in the first place. I say that as someone who has access to them, not out of self-interest.

It's getting out of hand with the 'gicks and the HGs, to be quite honest.

[Dracul]

For mundane subs, no, and I think these should be made 0-karma in the first place. I say that as someone who has access to them, not out of self-interest.

Agreed on the mundane subguilds. I was it brought up with a WHY are those gatekept by karma? Is it because they require more document sensitive roleplay, no, the answer given was that they are just that much better. Are newbs not supposed to get as codedly skilled as older players if they can survive as long as them?? Those should definitely be opened up. It'll take enough skill fails to get that subguild up to its max that a new player will still struggle to get there.

[Jarvis]

Both sides of the argument are valid points.

There are definitely too many cracked up wizards, sorcerers and muscle-bound killing machines running around.
On the other hand:

I really, REALLY hate waiting 3 months to try/play a character that I might not like or might get an incredibly unpractical stat roll (because even prioritizing you can just strike out).

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

[WarriorPoet]

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

[mansa]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.  (Potentially, you can have 30 players all have their karma timers complete, and all 30 players can submit muls at the same time. The karma timer is a bad solution.)

We currently do this with sorcerers.  However, it should be automated to reduce workload on the staff.



This is my idea:

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

The config file can be updated on-the-fly to increase or decrease the cut-off values.


This should flatten out the perceived population explosions of certain types of karma classes and races.


Example:

Karma Race/Class	Current Population	Cutoff Limit	Action
Mul	5	3	Closed
Half-Giant	10	6	Closed
Thryzn	5	5	Closed
Desert Elf	8	15	Open
City Elf	7	100	Open
Half-Elf	10	100	Open
Dwarf	12	50	Open
Human	70	100	Open
Devastation Krathi	2	2	Closed
Agony Krathi	0	2	Open
Guile Krathi	0	4	Open
Healing Vivaduan	3	4	Open
Corruption Vivaduan	3	4	Open
Creation Vivaduan	0	4	Open

[LindseyBalboa]

Maybe instead, muls rage more often and the way they have to prevent rage isn't flawless. And the first targets they go for are the closest - anyone they're following, guarding, or guarded by. Make them actually dangerous to play for those around them.

And HGs need an actual coded penalty more than "bad agility so OHK only happens every 20 seconds." HGs have been independent GMH hunters and similar roles (several times, not attacking any players because it's been happening), which is literally the last thing you'd send an HG off to do by docs. They need constant supervision or they just go off and do the next cool thing they see. Put in a timer that pops up at a random time over a random but long interval that's like "whatever you're interacting with now is more interesting that's your friend now" and make that as hard a requirement as elves not using mounts.

Or something!

[Halcyon]

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

WP, I respect your view on Arm rp over time.  Are you finding rp so bad from "karma players" that you put in player complaints?

[Jarvis]

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

WP, I respect your view on Arm rp over time.  Are you finding rp so bad from "karma players" that you put in player complaints?

I don't think I've ever put a player complaint to be honest. And its not necessarily that the RP is bad, I don't think I've met anyone playing a 'gick, half-giant or mul who didn't blend in with the world around them and play them game accordingly.

However, there is definitely a clear difference in someone picking a race (ala mul or half-giant) in order to make their combat role powerful, and people who genuinely enjoy playing out the races with all their flaws and quirks (this goes for our friendly neighbourhood Hogwarts rejects too). Its less about the quality of RP and the "are they making a build or are they making a character". I've been guilty of this, still am at points, and I'm not particularly new either. The additional layers would help people get that out of their system before reaching the really powerful roles I think.

That said, these are the points of an adrenaline junkie who almost exclusively plays combat actionmen.

[tiny rainbow]

There should be no problem with taking time out to play a normal character, but people are like... It's like an upper and lower class of players that are better than everyone else we just need to encourage people to play them, by making the karma timer only go down while playing normal roles, so we don't have this divide between old and newer players

It also feels like we're in a situation where newer players are going for sponsored roles where the older players are avoiding, that's probably why we're lacking on direction at the high level with plots, maybe we also need more coded powers for political chars as well so they aren't kinda throttled by having to wait for requests when things get real

City army roles seemed like they had good experienced players in them, whereas now those people are getting sucked off on the karma character conveyor belt instead of having characters in between - Less people are wanting to play traditional roles such as soldiers because of the karma options - so we've got a situation where these roles are getting by with skeleton crews of people who are often new players OOCly, so without karma roles we've got a situation where people just go from one karma character to the next and basically are newbie-bullies



What we need is some way to motivate people to play mundane characters - Bring back the karma timer, and make it so people have some motivation to chip in to helping with the other roles There DOES need to be a thing that encourages people to not go from one top tier to the other, and we already had that system, I think we've seen proof that it was good design

[Nao]

While I dislike being 'the mundane PC that's the odd one out' (and being treated like a newbie  ), I'd rather have that than no activity because some players would rather not play than play a 0 or 1 karma role. I also expect things to settle down eventually. Keep the timers off.

[tiny rainbow]

Things will settle down argument might've worked some months ago, but what we've seen instead is that without a system people don't follow a system that isn't there

[Veselka]

No to karma timer.

Yes to hard caps.

Also there should be more options for how to use your karma such as:
-Skill Boosts at character generation
-Role Rosters available at chargen before even naming your Pc.
This would look like:

AVAILABLE ROLES TO APPLY FOR: (Select letter for more information)
[A] Byn Trooper (1 Karma Required) (2 Remaining).
Gemmed Magicker (Drovian) (3 Karma Required) (1 Remaining)
[C] Tuluki Legionnaire (1 Karma) (2 remaining)

Selecting it takes it off the roster when approved in the queue.

Roles come with mild skill bumps, clan gear, and rank.

This also allows Staff to approve low hanging fruit characters that they might need to boost an area of the game. I know I would play these roles more than Day 0 Scrub when possible to jump into the action.

[Nao]

Things will settle down argument might've worked some months ago, but what we've seen instead is that without a system people don't follow a system that isn't there

The change is barely more than three months old.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58528.msg1081992.html#msg1081992

[Riev]

Give it more than a single PC generation (90d) before you decide you don't like it, because you saw a few Karma PCs.

Some people that got to three karma (after taking 20 years to get there) really want to try out their options.

I don't want anyone to take it away from a player who has done nothing wrong, because someone else did something you didn't like.

Edited by Hestia because there's salt, and there's TOS violation. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

[Halcyon]

This was the point I tried to make with WarriorPoet.   We have an appeals and corrections system.   Has it been attempted, or is it undesirable in curbing abuses?

[tiny rainbow]

The characters come a lot faster than 90 days though.

You say people are not doing anything wrong, but they actively are, even if it's not against the rules, it's detrimental to the rest of the game, and if people can't recognise that, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to play those roles at all, instead? Maybe people being so entitled that they pick more powerful roles persistently instead of trying to make the roleplay of the game more interesting is actually the problem?

Maybe you're part of the problem, Riev?

There's no rule being broken, what would people even report?
(and anyway, in most situations like that, 90% of information available is not available to players - there has to be staff oversight over most things, I'm hoping with the website improvements it will become the norm to skim through logs for weirdness instead of relying on players to spot stuff)

[Riev]

You have no idea what I play, how I play it, or what I bring to the game or take away from it.

Forcing me to wait ANY period of time because you don't want me to play these roles is not fine with me. If the issue is "too many magickers", then look at Mansa's suggestion of limiting active magickers at any given time.

But you want me to not be able to play high level roles back to back, and so far the only reason I've seen is because "other people don't yet have 3 karma" or "other people like to play more normal roles".

Why should I be forced to play risk-averse for the first 90days of play just so that I can play that other role I wanted to play, but chose this one instead? That is not beneficial for the game, either.

[tiny rainbow]

I made it personal because you decided to make it personal edited to remove a reference that no longer applies. But it's not anything against any particular character or characters, but it's not good for the game overall.

I think we've proved that karma timers were all that held back from abuse, and were an important part of the game that stopped a landslide effect of everything pouring away in one direction.

[Jarvis]

I made it personal because you decided to make it personal edited to remove a reference that no longer applies. But it's not anything against any particular character or characters, but it's not good for the game overall.

I think we've proved that karma timers were all that held back from abuse, and were an important part of the game that stopped a landslide effect of everything pouring away in one direction.

Karma timers do not moderate abuse. It is absurd to think so. If anything what they will accomplish is:

-More careful twinking in more isolated/avoidant scenarios until the character is obscenely powerful
-Loss of playerbase as people wait to play what they want to play

Source: I play like a crackhead and I'm not smart enough for timers to dissuade me from doing so

And who is this "they". People speak with a specific incident in their mind, but honestly I very rarely see these incidents happen.
I have not the smallest idea of what you're talking about, and I do not think you do truly either.

There are more "special" characters running around than I would like, but you make it sound like every other mul/half-giant/gick player is going around killing elf children and subduing you off cliffs without a line of emotes.

[Brytta Léofa]

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

This is a good idea.
It's fair.
We all get the idea that magickers, muls, etc. should be somewhat rare.
Staff can make the thresholds as permissive or restrictive as they like.
It gives people options: okay, I can't play a whiran now but there's space for a krathi. (As long as demand isn't way higher than capacity.*)
Staff could allow special apps to bypass the thresholds, for when you really really want the concept.

* but tbh the most likely outcome is that we would see more diversity in types of magicker.

[mansa]

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

This is a good idea.
It's fair.
We all get the idea that magickers, muls, etc. should be somewhat rare.
Staff can make the thresholds as permissive or restrictive as they like.
It gives people options: okay, I can't play a whiran now but there's space for a krathi. (As long as demand isn't way higher than capacity.*)
Staff could allow special apps to bypass the thresholds, for when you really really want the concept.

* but tbh the most likely outcome is that we would see more diversity in types of magicker.

The other thing is...

The reason you are being rejected is implied that you're being rejected because there are too many of that type, rather that some arbitrary timer.

[tiny rainbow]

Karma timers do not moderate abuse. It is absurd to think so.

Of course they do, the system worked for years and there wasn't posts about situations like this. The cause and effect isn't exactly rocket science here.

And people that deliberately avoid RP with other characters to gain skills are already shouted at by staff, that's part of the responsibility of karma roles, saying "If you don't do this, we'll do worse things" Doesn't really give the greatest impression that this isn't an entitlement issue?

[Riev]

Karma timers do not moderate abuse. It is absurd to think so.

Of course they do, the system worked for years and there wasn't posts about situations like this. The cause and effect isn't exactly rocket science here.

And people that deliberately avoid RP with other characters to gain skills are already shouted at by staff, that's part of the responsibility of karma roles, saying "If you don't do this, we'll do worse things" Doesn't really give the greatest impression that this isn't an entitlement issue?

What years did it "work" for, considering 3 months ago it was decided to change back to something it was also "working for years with"?

[tiny rainbow]

Seems like the entire game's history never had a problem like this before until it was changed? I do remember it was said that if it isn't working it might go back, I think we proved it doesn't work