Reinstating the karma timer

[Nao]

If the current numbers are too high, then the demand for these roles exceeds the 'acceptable number' of these PCs in game. I'd expect them to be full most of the time.

[BadSkeelz]

The numbers were very high even before the karma timer change. I don't think rolling it back would fix any particular problem of there being too many karma roles in the game. I think people play them because they're more enjoyable and actionable (and/or we've attritioned away more of the players who preferred more lowkey roles).

Let people play what they want more, but also give more people more reasons to play something else.

[creeper386]

Limiting people from playing what they want to play isn't going to benefit the game.

I doubt any particular roles is making the game unplayable right now.

Perhaps certain behaviors by those roles could make things difficult, or people have bad interactions with, sure, in that case if something is actually problematic, against the theme of the game etc, I'd rather hope staff would handle any particular problem people.

I've played across the known, and not sure I've seen the populations drastically change. There has always been cycles where a particular race or class seems more played.

Unless someone has some hard numbers that show particularly what the breakdown is and has been, I'm not sure what the discussion is.


I remember one point there was a bunch of people complaining about too many magickers and the stats showed it was a normal amount of magickers. It wasn't the numbers were up it was just happenstance they were running into more of them.

[Patuk]

What would you say is the normal amount of mages?

[FantasyWriter]

Let people play what they want to play, so long as they are playing it well.

I do not want to see the timer reinstated, why:
1. Sometimes quick deaths
2. Sometimes people pay magickers/sorcs/psions "unmantifested" for a while before coming out of the closet. (more of an argument against Mansa's idea than the OP)
3. It causes people to wait to make a character, which lowers active player population.
4. Those that do make a "throwaway" may spend less time or less enjoyable time in the game being frustrated or even biter.
5. People can play "secret" magickers now because of the class/subclass systems, and are able to play more well-rounded characters that don't HAVE to be all about magick meaning magick use may be a much smaller part of their play-time that it was in the past.


I think the old 8-tier system was "better" as this from a purely theoretical standpoint.
The higher you went, the more options you had, but you also saw more "progress" toward the "goal" to keep you sated.
I think I was at 5 (drov/ekran) or 6 (nilaz) and actually LOST options going to the new system 2 karma, and am still there, but the special app system lets me basically with more than a year in the game app ALL the things.

With more tiers, we got to spend more time working our way up and experimenting more with the various levels, and had more to strives for on an OOC level to push ourselves into the different things that "earned" us more karma.

[Case]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

[FantasyWriter]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

This made me think: What about instead of a Karma-level timer, it was a guild/race-specific timer?
I can see if someone makes a nilazi, they can't make another for six months. What I -don't like is playing a Nilazi, cancel out all my OTHER options for any length of time.

[Lutagar]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

I feel like this would encourage magic players to play in a way that safe/boring because a death would be so much more of a hit on an OOC level.

Mages existing should drive conflict, imho. They ought to be rewarded for initiating and taking risks instead of punished for it.

[Brisket]

if you let people play what they want to play, they'll play more often.

[creeper386]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

This made me think: What about instead of a Karma-level timer, it was a guild/race-specific timer?
I can see if someone makes a nilazi, they can't make another for six months. What I -don't like is playing a Nilazi, cancel out all my OTHER options for any length of time.

This is probably the only karma timer option I support. The karma timer was enough of an hassle for me, that I rather just play mundanes then even try a karma role. Combined with the fact that as someone who say, hasn't played magickers, it's not that exciting to app into a magicker and find out what they can do, I as a play have no interest playing them. So then I store and that's a big waste of karma.

Does the lack of a timer mean some people may play karma options all the time. Sure. But the discussion of there being too many X existed long before karma timers were removed. And was always cyclical and much of the time I'm not sure the complain was ever actually completely valid.

If someone wants to play a mul over and over again, and in such a way that is making other people not have fun with the game, I truly hope people use the request tool to voice their concerns with a character making them not want to play the game and have faith that it's a problem, or against documentation staff can sort it out.

[Lotion]

A timer that generates up to 3x your maximum karma points would be nice.

Player with 2 max karma plays a hg for a year and ends up with 6chargen points but can only spend 2 at a time.
It rewards long lived characters (which is seen as desirable) but does not so heavily punish random early death on an expensive character (which is seen as undesirable).

[Brisket]

we should never reward anyone who rolls a HG, so I disagree with you Lotion.

[Halaster]

Limits and caps on certain roles... maaaaaybe, though I've heard a lot of compelling reasons not to even do that.

We're not going to reintroduce the karma timer.  If we were to reintroduce the karma timers it wouldn't be for a year or two.  But we're not going to reintroduce the karma timer.

It's barely been more than 3 months, which is the time it would take to regenerate 3 karma one time.  I agree with Brokkr in that I think over a longer period of time this is going to settle down.  People were freed up to try some new things because they don't feel like they would be screwed if their concept died too soon, and all that.  But even if it doesn't settle down, we won't know for at least probably for a year or longer.

[ShaiHulud]

the changes are good, and should be allowed to test time.
I don't think players are abusing timers if in place.
Let folks play, not sit behind a wall. If you want more, play long and well, then petition.
If you want to know more, then discover it icly.
I was never given the crutch that most seem to need now. Play and learn, not gripe and expect.

[Yelinak]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

[Dracul]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

Nothing in wrong with the setting, but I don't want to roleplay a character in the fascist authoritarian setting. I can't enjoy it because of my perspective in the modern world...that would not be an escape. So for awhile I've played characters that have some tweak that guides them away from that. Those characters interact with plenty of other characters, but it's less likely I'll end up in a situation ICly that makes me uncomfortable OOCly. The whole world is affected by the sorcerer kings, but you get specific RP situations with templars/soldiers/authority in the cities.

I do not have a solution above, just a perspective.

[Yelinak]

I'm perfectly happy to play a hapless character in a fascist setting as long as something happens on a sufficiently regular basis to where it doesn't feel like the onus is exclusively on me, with no help whatsoever from the outside, to lend some relevancy to the role. I have not found that in either of the cities. It has been an impenetrable wall of utter boredom from the first moment to the last.

It's not significantly more interesting to play outside of a city, but at least I get to go kill scrabs or whatever when I want, instead of being beholden to some clan's schedule or its rules that say you can't do anything. There simply needs to be more to sink one's teeth into. I was so excited with recent events, but then they vanished almost as soon as they had begun; and if there was more to it than that, it isn't readily apparent. It isn't something that the common character can access. It might as well not be there.

And that's an issue I've always had with city play. Even when in a position to receive a fair amount of information (e.g. a militia corporal or somesuch), the information is almost always: no news, nothing going on, as always. Keep sparring and patrolling. For years on end. Hurray.

Why, then, would I not play a half-giant Rukkian somewhere out in the desert, just to see the fringes of the code? But what do I contribute to the game when I do that? If a tree falls in the forest and nobody was there to see it, what meaningful roleplay came of it?

But when there's no meaningful roleplay to be had in the cities either, one might as well play a HG/mul/delf/magicker and at least fuck around with the coded systems and become as powerful as one can. If there's nothing else to pursue, this at least checks the lizard brain's need for progress. It feels so futile anytime I try to make more of it than that, because there's just no response. There's nothing to pursue beyond coded progress. I'd love it if it were otherwise, but I cannot find it.

I suspect people play karma-required characters so much because it's the last vestige of agency. "I have such insane strength that nobody can oppose me," or "I can fireball you into oblivion." Yay. But when there's nothing to channel it into, what's the point? And it's not as if none of these players try to find something to channel it into. They try, but find nothing. There's no underlying purpose to their play because this game lends it none. Why, then, would anyone play a city-bound mundane character? It's the same there, except you can't even enjoy the fleeting gratification of mul stats or fireballing a random dude in the face. You just get to sit in the tavern all day, doing nothing and hearing of nothing that compels you to do anything.

It's all so tragically boring. At least the karma options lend a forlorn chance of something, even if it rarely comes to fruition; and they're mostly incompatible with city play, which is damning indictment. This game should revolve around its cities, with everything else being a fringe endeavor. Instead, the cities are a sad ghost town while everyone's out there playing Guess Which Gick I Am. It's just depressing to behold, and I wish it wasn't like this. I'd love to play in the cities, but it feels like there's no support for it at all.

As long as it's like that, I (and, it appears, many others) will choose character types that are best equipped to live in the middle of nowhere, and those are karma races and magic subclasses. If there was more incentive to play in places where those options were not objectively superior, it might be different. It should be a game where one weighs whether or not one wishes to tackle the challenges of playing a karma option. Instead, it's a game where one struggles to justify playing a non-karma option. This has to change.

[dumbstruck]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

Nothing in wrong with the setting, but I don't want to roleplay a character in the fascist authoritarian setting. I can't enjoy it because of my perspective in the modern world...that would not be an escape. So for awhile I've played characters that have some tweak that guides them away from that. Those characters interact with plenty of other characters, but it's less likely I'll end up in a situation ICly that makes me uncomfortable OOCly. The whole world is affected by the sorcerer kings, but you get specific RP situations with templars/soldiers/authority in the cities.

I do not have a solution above, just a perspective.

Literally everything said above. The other day another player asked me in discord via private message why I thought people weren't playing in cities and I said I couldn't speak for other people but for me it was that the setting had distilled to such a fascist authoritarian state in the cities (which is fine, whatever, the setting is the setting) that I no longer found them enjoyable to play in. Tuluk used to have a lively art scene with a big flowery quarter about it which is now... well. Find out IC. Allanak used to have the Atrium and a lot more latitude with its aides and upper class commoners and it's now... I mean... find out IC. And I had a great time in either of the two in my time. And now... I'm having a great time away from both. Because I have absolutely no desire to be ground under a fascist bootheel in my escapism. I think most players have no desire for this. Many players enjoy being the oppressor and few enjoy being the oppressed. And so you wind up with, as people joke about in the discord 'fuck you templar', and an exodus to the wilderness.

[Lutagar]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

I think the cities feel miserable because it's intentionally very difficult to survive as a clanless mundane, as a means of encouraging you to join a clan. But most clans have a schedule that require you to be behind a locked door or suffer ic consequences. It's a self inflicted problem - the cities feel empty because every coded change seems to steer mundane humans to hiding behind their clan's locked door and never interacting with the city outside of it.

Ten people that can interact freely FEELS like alot more than 50 that can only do so 15 minutes at a time. You're more likely to get interaction as a rogue gick for this reason.

[Riev]

This is about karma roles.

[Pariah]

I will say from personal experience that there is a mechanism for Karma overuse.  Back when I used to have way more Karma (Back when it was more than 3) I went on a bender of witches.  After I think two in a row my application was denied by a staffer saying something like, "Chill out on the witches for now."

I'd much rather have that type of response, that I could then open a request and either explain why I had such a cool concept they might reconsider than to be stuck waiting an arbitrary month or whatever to play a witch again.

I know the intent of karma timer is to dole out those special roles slower, at least that's how this thread comes across from me. 

And yes, it is sorta a third wall breaking trope in game to be like, Fuck Joe turned out to be a witch, I knew him for years!?

Because people are better and better at hiding it, but I'd much rather give them the opportunity to do that, than to limit them arbitrarily by a coded timer.

[FantasyWriter]

I will say from personal experience that there is a mechanism for Karma overuse.  Back when I used to have way more Karma (Back when it was more than 3) I went on a bender of witches.  After I think two in a row my application was denied by a staffer saying something like, "Chill out on the witches for now."

I'd much rather have that type of response, that I could then open a request and either explain why I had such a cool concept they might reconsider than to be stuck waiting an arbitrary month or whatever to play a witch again.

I know the intent of karma timer is to dole out those special roles slower, at least that's how this thread comes across from me. 

And yes, it is sorta a third wall breaking trope in game to be like, Fuck Joe turned out to be a witch, I knew him for years!?

Because people are better and better at hiding it, but I'd much rather give them the opportunity to do that, than to limit them arbitrarily by a coded timer.

Not sure if this is what you were saying, but it make me think of something else:

Karma, in itself, is not a throttle on role rarity, it is is a filter for trust and RP ability against abusing higher-karma roles with more coded power.

Like Pariah said, I would much rather get a note from staff saying/ Hey, you've played two Nilazi already this year, we have a couple those around a couple new players special apping to try it out.  Why do you apply for [role call instead] your concept might work well for that with another guild/subguild choice. Or we have too many Whirans right now, might making something else right now and trying the role in the future or change the magic flavor?

Trust players and staff to manage things organically. OOC change often appears to be the catalyst for a lot of player attrition.  Myself included: I lost play guild options when we went from 8 karma to three. Then we lost Nilaz as playable at all and full elementalists as an option, then I could play fewer karma roles due to the timers, and after a couple quick deaths in a row limiting my options for a while, I decided to stop playing until my timer creeped back up, and then just didn't come back.

[LindseyBalboa]

I have like 32 concepts to try out. Some are high karma, some are not. I'll probably do some of the high karma ones first because I haven't experienced some of them before. I may be influenced into trying certain concepts because I notice a particular role might do well in an area of the game that's popular and active, or maybe I think there's an area that needs some antagonism.

I do not have to worry about being safe or dying before 3 months is up. I like to think I do not play safely and will gladly attack someone in the street if it makes sense for my day 1 character to do so, but now I have the certainty of knowing it doesn't matter because I'm not gate kept from the other stories I want to play by time.

Karma timers are not positive for the game, they just inhibit ideas from being played. Staff is already on top of people playing repetitively. I don't see any reason to bring them back - and a lot of reasons not to.

... and after a couple quick deaths in a row limiting my options for a while, I decided to stop playing until my timer creeped back up, and then just didn't come back.

[Windstorm]

It's best to let people play what they want to play.

HOWEVER.

I personally would not mind a nudge from the staff when I was putting in an app that something "rare" that I was applying for was not, at the moment, very rare.

If there are a zillion Vivaduans in the game and I'm putting in a Vivaduan app, I might actually rather know that so I could play something else, personally.

Census numbers might be handy for that, but I don't know how accessible they are.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I find it odd Vivaduans aren't more popular actually. Water should be THE most valuable, sought-after element in a desert apocalypse setting if you ask me, but I've only ever been aware of like two ever.

[BadSkeelz]

They're as common as any other gicker in my experience. People do trend to gravitate to the higher karma ones if they can get them, but there's more lower karma players. Kind of evens out.