Author Topic: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.  (Read 5951 times)

Dar

  • Posts: 1717
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2021, 09:07:50 PM »
Here's the message that the player of that elf sent as kudos after my elf died.

To the player of Gortok's Cowl - the scar-etched, long-haired elf:

 I cannot begin to say how much more enriching and
interesting you made the entire situation out to be. For myself, I think
it would have been very interesting to see the plot played out further.
But for my character, of course, the unexpected ending was a breath of
relief.

I just want to thank you, above all, for being the better player and
thickening the plot, rather than ending it. And also giving my character
such an unbelievable story to add to a multitude of tribal emotional
scarring.

I know it sucks to see a character die, but don't give up! I wish there
were more players like you out and about.



I don't know what to really suggest to you, Lotion.  We're playing in a game world that's ment to be ruthless. It's easier to say this for me. I'm a male and therefore have not experienced what women experience every day. But in my opinion, if we are going to soften every sharp angle in our stories, then we can no longer claim the motto of murder, corruption, betrayal.  We should also not watch anything GoT and villify Drago.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2021, 09:11:05 PM »
from wikipeida
Quote
The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, has an intellectual disability, or is below the legal age of consent.
This snippet even contains a helpful link to the article on coercion which has the following snippet in its opening paragraph
Quote
In law, coercion is codified as a duress crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in a way contrary to their own interests.

Rape via coercion is still rape and my opinion remains that the forms of rape explicitly allowed by the rape helpfile should be explicitly disallowed. Just because the form of rape I am describing does not fall under some cherrypicked definition of rape does not mean it isn't rape.

It tends to be specifically coercion through violence or threats of violence, as opposed to other types of coercion such as emotional coercion, that leads to something being considered rape.

Take for instance quid pro quo, which is recognized as a form of sexual coercion.  However, it obviously doesn't fall under rape laws, but rather sexual harassment laws.  It is not all coercion but a specific kind of coercion that raises things to the level of rape.  This isn't a circle within a circle, it is a Venn diagram where the intersection of different sets is considered rape, not the everything within the set itself.  Different intersections leads to different outcomes, such as sexual assault or sexual harassment.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 09:22:15 PM by Brokkr »

Brokkr

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Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2021, 09:20:51 PM »
If you'll ban someone for working within the current "letter of the law", then the rules should be updated to prevent the ambiguity.

If one has the idea that the rules should be all-encompassing and absolutely govern how the staff/player relationship works, perhaps.

If one has the idea that the rules may need the good judgement and consensus of those overseeing the game to overrule them in certain circumstances, then no, because we can't anticipate every exception we would need to incorporate.

The players who are on the receiving end of the sexual harassment shouldn't have to come forward.

Agreed, but coming forward is also the only way to guarantee something will be seen and looked at.  There is plenty that goes on that we do not see.

Robespierre

  • Posts: 40
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2021, 09:52:12 PM »

If one has the idea that the rules may need the good judgement and consensus of those overseeing the game to overrule them in certain circumstances, then no, because we can't anticipate every exception we would need to incorporate.


I agree with you that the expectation should be on players to try to make the community fun and adversarial at the same time. I think even if the rules had guidelines, like banning sexual harassment and repeated unwanted sexual advances, players would be more likely to report. The offenders would be more likely to regulate their behavior without needing to be reported. If people are leaving the game because of repeated sexual harassment, I think that's fundamentally different than people leaving the game because players are mean to elves or because it's too easy to die.

Here's the message that the player of that elf sent as kudos after my elf died...

Just like the forcible rape ban stops two people that want to RP a forcible rape story, you're right that a coerced sex/rape ban (desperately trying to stay out of the definitional fight) would stop people from pursuing storylines they both want to pursue. By allowing it to happen even with OOC consent, you pressure players that may have experienced that in RL to play those plots. I think the loss in grittiness in just this one form is a smaller loss than the harm we're seeing to players that exclusively play females.

SpyGuy

  • Posts: 1500
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2021, 10:22:17 PM »
There’s a difference to me between rape and sexual harassment.   Rape is something I’m happy to have out of the game 100%, there are too many avenues to do it codedly (whether ftl or played out) and it’s not worth it.  Even if it’s thematic to the game world we don’t need that reputation as a community.  I’m very glad there are strict rules against it.

Sexual harassment can take many forms.  They can bring value to RP, I’ve seen plots develop from it both from players slowly welcoming the advances and from players absolutely hating them.   The key here is consent.   Does the player on the other side want to roleplay out the harassment of their PC? If not they need an avenue to get it to stop even if there are IC consequences. Otherwise it could make playing that PC absolutely tedious.

I think the onus is on players playing a ‘creepy PC’ to OOC to check if that roleplay is okay with the other side.  Particularly if it’s long term or frequent like in an employer/employee relationship.   Those being harassed should also have the avenue to either OOC  and/or send in a report to get it to stop.  This is an issue that hits home with all too many people in the real world (and let’s be honest, women deal with this shit a lot more than men) and I feel we should strive to have a system in place that allows players to avoid that kind of RP if they do choose.   I don’t know where the line should be exactly but players of PCs doing sexual harassment should be checking to make sure their victim consents to that RP if it will be a regular thing. 

Be a creep IC.  Don’t be a creep OOC.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 11:32:42 PM by SpyGuy »

Robespierre

  • Posts: 40
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2021, 10:41:29 PM »
Spy, I think if that works, it's a great solution. My only concern is that this rule is in place for abuse of power situations, like employer/employee, and it sounds like it isn't being followed.

I'd love to know if there are any female players playing female characters that have been part of a sexual harassment plot they found fun? I think those are really important voices to consider before taking away this sort of plot presumably to benefit them.

Lotion

  • Posts: 317
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2021, 10:58:47 PM »
So that time a PC wouldn't stop making "haha what if we had sex jokes" to my PC nearly a year ago even after I repeatedly showed a complete lack of interest wasn't okay? Would have been nice to know

As a nonbinary person I very much did not enjoy my femmecoded nonbinary character being subject to a sexual harassment plot.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 11:02:47 PM by Lotion »
Quote
A staff member sends:
     "Hi, we don't need you to tell us EXACTLY what you are doing when you quit OOC.  We just need a vague reason.  Thanks."

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2021, 04:39:26 AM »
So it sounds like, basically, any sexual crime that involves violence or incapacitation is banned, and any sexual crime that does not involve violence or incapacitation is alright, in terms of what's allowed and what's not.

Additionally, any sexual act is banned if any one of the players involved in it does not OOCly consent to it, and, OOC consent must be asked for before engaging in such acts.

Additionally, such an OOC refusal may come long before said act is instigated, even in the birthing stages of the plot.

That seems to be the simplified long-and-short of our current sexual roleplay rules.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:07:41 AM by The7DeadlyVenomz »
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

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Lizzie

  • Posts: 8366
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2021, 09:35:19 AM »
If you live in an area where terrorists killed some of your family, and you were playing arm, would you feel you have the right to impose rules on the playerbase to -not- engage in plots where thugs will come to your apartment building, break into all the apartments, and kill anyone they find behind the doors?

If you were once a soldier whose gunfire took the lives of civilians, would you feel you have the right to impose rules on the playerbase to -not- engage in plots where mundane random residents of an area were killed?

If you once lived in Flint Michigan and saw the horrors of what happens when an entire community drinks unclean water, would you feel you have the right to impose a code change in the game removing the ability to poison water?

The staff has already moved the line of "what is acceptable" a few times on this. They changed the minimum age a character is allowed to be, so as not to promote the child-sex creep factor. They made using a word to describe an elf of any color at all, verboten to use because it is similar (not even the same word) to a derogatory used to describe a human of a certain color in the real world. They implemented the consent rules, which eliminate the ACT of rape and sexual torture (not the threat of it, just the act).

If we move the line to reflect the sensitivities of all players who might have experienced any kind of trauma, because it was traumatic and they shouldn't have to experience it in Armageddon, then our game would no longer be allowed to present conflict of any kind. And, if we keep moving the line to accommodate less than a handful of people who have those sensitivities, while the entire rest of the playerbase either a) doesn't care, b) actively prefers it the way it is, or c) isn't loving it but knows it's IC and deals with it IC or d) is fine reporting a real-world creep if they think it's getting out of hand... then we change the game into something only a handful of people actually want to play.
 
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Maso

  • Posts: 4084
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2021, 09:45:24 AM »
then we change the game into something only a handful of people actually want to play.

Might be controversial but I entirely agree with Lizzie on this one. I had written my own post, but frankly, she put it much better.

The only potentially solvable problem I see here...is just making sure the rules (as they are) are clearer and players OOC'ly are empowered and aware enough to only consent when they actually want to. Some of that might be on the game, some of that might be on the players. You're adults....Mostly.
Quote
emote pees into your eyes deeply

I don't always act superior... but when I do it's on the forums of a text-based game

Obeliskocism

  • Posts: 479
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2021, 10:02:42 AM »
I feel like Dar's Red Fang insemination example is the tribal elf equivalent of every GMH or noble house marriage contract I've seen in game.  These are political arrangements, with production of a progeny as a stated condition of the contract. 

The actual sex act can be FTB, but the PCs are effectively coerced by their house seniors saying "get with this person we're designating and create an offspring to carry on the family name, or surrender the comforts and privileges of your rank."

Harmless

  • Posts: 2893
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2021, 10:09:41 AM »
I havent seen coercion / quid pro quo used for obtaining sex more than a few times in game, and I have had a lot of sezually themed rp over a decade or more of playing, so while I agree this conversation is important, I am glad to say this seems very uncommon. I would actually be sad if there was no way to oocly consent to such tactics.

Fyi I have definitely seen coercion for sex from a female towards a male. I once played a salarri hunter dude who had a female sergeant that basically coerced him into sex. We all did the consent thing every time and the plot that ensued was fun, because higherups to the sergeant were unhappy about this happening. However, I was deeply puzzled why it got the sergeant in any trouble. It seemed entirely thematic to me if a superior offered perks for sex in a corrupt world and I didn't think it made sense that the sergeant's superiors gave such a shit about what she did to her underlings, espwcially considering my hunter was just some sandblood fella, so I will have to say that I kind of disagree with mansa in the rulw change department; consent was used in my case and everything seemed kosher to the rules and nobody was hurt emotionally afaik.

Also, I typically play females and I have seen once there too some coercion, but honestly I laughed it off. A famous Kuraci coerced my character and her sister (his bards) to paint a portrait of him nude. It was an icky scene but I was laughing because of the skilled writing/artistry of my sister bled a tongue in cheek humor about it all. In the end the scene was one of the most memorable and if rules were changed it may not have happened. Everyone consented and again, nobody was hurt (except mister kuraci who was later assassinated; in fact later my character became an aide and indirectly humiliated said kuraci and stained his reputation.)

So, I think in the hands of a mature playerbase, I don't think the rules should be changed. What I have been asking for is for arma to become age of consent only (for players) and a consent flag state with multiple options to specify someones ground rules.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 10:11:49 AM by Harmless »
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Malken

  • Posts: 9244
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2021, 10:26:43 AM »
Just tell new players that the game they are about to play is harsh, unfair and unforgiven and if they seek an escape from the horror of the real world then Armageddon is probably not their best bet at the moment.

Armageddon is super niche, stop trying to make it appeal to the general gaming population, it's never going to happen and all you're doing is driving away players who came to Armageddon for what it advertises itself to be. I think we all agree that rape is bad and shouldn't be part of the game, but rape isn't the only traumatic event that a player can experience irl - witnessing a murder is also a traumatic event but we witness it in the game all the time. Witnessing the loss of a loved one is another traumatic event but the game is perma-death so we go through this on a daily basis. Again, I think that rape is awful and shouldn't be part of the game but hopefully you guys see where I'm going with this.. As Lizzie said, different players will come to the game with different traumatic events in their past. We can't make every single player as comfortable as we would like.

Or just re-open Tuluk so that people who dislike an in-your-face brutality and daily remainder that Zalanthas sucks have a place to play to "re-coup" if they need to escape for a minute or two. I'm serious and this is not a dig to Tuluk - 95% of my characters have been played in Tuluk and I love playing there just for the reason I stated previously.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 12:53:16 PM by Malken »
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Khorm

  • Posts: 469
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2021, 11:00:54 AM »
Agreed, but coming forward is also the only way to guarantee something will be seen and looked at.  There is plenty that goes on that we do not see.

is it possible for more of this sort of sentiment to be included in the helpfiles? in rape/consent? maybe like at the very beginning to make it clear that players have an avenue for this.

the discussion about california legal definitions versus laymen's definitions of rape strikes me as the polar opposite of what you want to express to the player demographic that is sensitive to this area of play. i can appreciate that it's able to all be boiled down to logical explanations however i don't think that's the right approach to take when talking to players about something as destructive as rape. it's fine to express as reasoning for why the policy exists the way it does, but to present it as a defense of the types of okay rape that are present in the game seems a little too detached to then expect players to think they'll be taken seriously or treated with respect when approaching staff with these issues.

rape is fucked up. whether we want players to experience it or not, we for damn sure should make certain they have genuine avenues to review and process these scenes. whether you signed up for it or not i think there should be a greater effort or level of attention brought toward having a supportive atmosphere if you're going to run a game that allows rape as a thematic element.
Her head is average.

mansa

  • Posts: 10255
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2021, 12:36:15 PM »
I have a few leading questions that I've been pondering.


a) At what point should players Ask for Consent within their roleplaying session?

b) Does the act of Asking for Consent and Replying to a Consent Request have any pressure imposed on the participating players to continue scene?

c) If a player does not want to roleplay out the particular scene, how does this conflict get resolved, and would it be resolved in a different way if the scene continued?

d) If a player does not want to roleplay out a particular scene, and no participating players have Asked for Consent, when should the player let their discomfort be known?  How should the player let their discomfort be known?
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2021, 12:53:06 PM »
Here's an idea for a way to potentially mitigate a lot of the issues with consent right now:

Command: optout (player)

Sends a private OOC message to a character that you are opting out of any sexual role play with them, and flags the administrator log. A player that receives this message is obligated to immediately steer any sexual role play they were engaged with directed at your character into role play of a non-sexual nature (yes, this wording needs work). This command is not meant as a rebuke, and does not go on the player's records in any fashion unless the request is ignored.

This command has the same range of the contact skill, but with no chance of failure.

stoicreader

  • Posts: 153
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2021, 12:54:58 PM »
I'm on my cellphone and I rarely get on GDB. But when I can, I'll leave my two cents.

-stoa
-Stoa

Malken

  • Posts: 9244
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2021, 12:59:52 PM »
Here's an idea for a way to potentially mitigate a lot of the issues with consent right now:

Command: optout (player)

Sends a private OOC message to a character that you are opting out of any sexual role play with them, and flags the administrator log. A player that receives this message is obligated to immediately steer any sexual role play they were engaged with directed at your character into role play of a non-sexual nature (yes, this wording needs work). This command is not meant as a rebuke, and does not go on the player's records in any fashion unless the request is ignored.

This command has the same range of the contact skill, but with no chance of failure.

I like that idea.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?) I can foresee some characters completely losing interest of any kind in rp'ing with the flagger the minute they receive that optout flag.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Veselka

  • Posts: 1347
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2021, 01:00:23 PM »
There's a lot of hand-wavium when it comes to ArmageddonMUD, for better and for worse.

Case in point -- Half-Elves. Stated in the help file that they are products of rape:

Quote
Notes:
   If you are new to Armageddon MUD, you should be aware that many half-
elves are the product of rape, but this does not mean that you should
feel obliged to make your character the result of such an act.

So, this makes 'rape' thematic to the game, in that a race of people are often times a product of it. This happens entirely virtually, of course, particularly now with the adjustments to the rape / sexual assault help file. Just because it happens off camera doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the game world. Similarly, consensual sex between an elf and a human is incredibly taboo, so by in large, one must assume most of that sex is not consensual.

Taking other races by example -- Half-giants --

Quote
Half-Giants                                                           (Races)

   Created by some magick far in the past, the race of half-giants were 
the result of special cross-breeding of humans and the giants rumored to
inhabit the islands in the Sea of Eternal Dust.

It states this as something that happened far in the past, and it's always been pretty ambiguous and vague as to how half-giants propagate. One assumes it is half-giants having babies with other half-giants, but it's never explicitly stated anywhere.

So I suppose what it comes down to is explicit vs. implicit. There are a lot of assumptions of how to play the game, but it is never written anywhere in the documentation, it's simply player culture and staff culture that has propagated those beliefs. It is explicit in the documentation that half-elves are often the product of rape, but it isn't stated in documentation for that race or for humans that consensual sex between races is frowned upon, that is implicit.

Hopefully with the help file revamps, some of this explicit vs implicit can be addressed over time. It's always good to have documentation to back up opinion of how things should be, rather than leaving it in a fuzzy grey area to be interpreted both ways, except when being vague serves the purpose of the documentation (Things like help consent, for instance, don't list every example of when consent should be sought, but implies when in doubt, you should seek consent).


Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2021, 01:05:16 PM »
Here's an idea for a way to potentially mitigate a lot of the issues with consent right now:

Command: optout (player)

Sends a private OOC message to a character that you are opting out of any sexual role play with them, and flags the administrator log. A player that receives this message is obligated to immediately steer any sexual role play they were engaged with directed at your character into role play of a non-sexual nature (yes, this wording needs work). This command is not meant as a rebuke, and does not go on the player's records in any fashion unless the request is ignored.

This command has the same range of the contact skill, but with no chance of failure.

I like that idea.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?) I can foresee some characters completely losing interest of any kind in rp'ing with the flagger the minute they receive that optout flag.

Emphasizing that the command isn't meant as a rebuke will mitigate that to some degree, but yes that's unavoidable. I'd call that the lesser of two evils though for a person that's uncomfortable with the current rp.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1347
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2021, 01:12:10 PM »
I have a few leading questions that I've been pondering.


a) At what point should players Ask for Consent within their roleplaying session?


I'm trigger happy when it comes to consent. Often, if I'm going to commit an RP'd act of violence against someone and not use crime code (particularly in positions of power like the AoD or Captain of the Garrison), I ooc something like 'Consent to mild violence instead of going full ham with combat?'. I think at the onset of a scene (whether it be particularly gruesome or particularly kinky) it should be a habit to OOC for consent.

Quote
b) Does the act of Asking for Consent and Replying to a Consent Request have any pressure imposed on the participating players to continue scene?

I hadn't thought of this before, but yes, I think it does create an imposition on participating players to continue the scene. For example, if four people are in a jail cell (1 templar, 1 criminal, 2 soldiers) and everyone but the criminal quickly agrees to 'consent to torture', it puts pressure on the criminal to also consent to torture. Whether or not they succumb to peer pressure to continue the scene is up to them, but I would say the more people involved in the scene, the more pressure it puts. On a 1v1 consent scenario, the person who initiates consent (OOC Consent to <blah>) also has the advantage of initiating contact. Typically when I consent or ask consent, I offer the options that are available (Consent or FTB?) or (Consent to Torture? It will not permanently maim your character, but if you want to forego the torture, it will lead to a death scene).

Upon reading that though -- That's kind of fucked up and a form of not-sexual coercion in itself. It's basically putting you the player in an OOC pickle. "If you are not comfortable with RPing out an extended torture scene via graphic emotes, and sometimes traumatizing image play, you will lose your PC. If you do go ahead and do the scene, your PC will likely survive." But I do suppose the option is available either way, and the choice is ultimately the player's.

Quote
c) If a player does not want to roleplay out the particular scene, how does this conflict get resolved, and would it be resolved in a different way if the scene continued?

It's stated pretty explicitly in the consent file that if one or more parties does not consent to the scene as described, it does not take place, and does not get 'glossed over'. In the case of a torture scene, it states:

Quote
   In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character
to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may
request that they be killed by the procedure
.  It is then the
instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take
some other appropriate course of action.  The victim should not
request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the
situation out of character beyond this provision.
  After much deliberation, castration/sterilization
is classified as a form of maiming.  However, such actions should be very rare, very specific
punishments (eg in the case of a violation of a GMH/Noble House marriage contract) and should not be
acted out in gory detail to avoid veering into sexual torture.

This points out that if your PC is in a position where they can be tortured or killed, they can opt out of being maimed/tortured and request to be killed instead. Ostensibly, this is the same as being killed by a PC or NPC at any point, wherein you do not require consent to do so (We have Unlimited PK, as opposed to Monitored PK).

Quote
d) If a player does not want to roleplay out a particular scene, and no participating players have Asked for Consent, when should the player let their discomfort be known?  How should the player let their discomfort be known?

Immediately. If a consent is not answered (You initiate consent, the other party does not, and just continues with the scene as if you did not ask for consent), wish up immediately. If no Staff are available, Quit OOC, and file a player complaint immediately. Consent (and the help file for it) are very explicit about this:

Quote
   If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other
player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable
amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint
verified), you will be banned. If you enact a rape plotline or an act of rape, you will be banned.
In either case, you will be banned for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the
second offense.  If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you will
be permanently banned.  Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 01:14:51 PM by Veselka »


Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Veselka

  • Posts: 1347
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2021, 01:20:12 PM »
Here's an idea for a way to potentially mitigate a lot of the issues with consent right now:

Command: optout (player)

Sends a private OOC message to a character that you are opting out of any sexual role play with them, and flags the administrator log. A player that receives this message is obligated to immediately steer any sexual role play they were engaged with directed at your character into role play of a non-sexual nature (yes, this wording needs work). This command is not meant as a rebuke, and does not go on the player's records in any fashion unless the request is ignored.

This command has the same range of the contact skill, but with no chance of failure.

I like that idea.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?) I can foresee some characters completely losing interest of any kind in rp'ing with the flagger the minute they receive that optout flag.

Emphasizing that the command isn't meant as a rebuke will mitigate that to some degree, but yes that's unavoidable. I'd call that the lesser of two evils though for a person that's uncomfortable with the current rp.

I'm curious if there's a way to make this a function of the 'assess' command, combined with preferences stated at character creation (or that can be entered at a later date, maybe with a 'consent' command).

>assess <soandso> ooc

They are opting out of sexual role-play.
They are opting out of torture role-play.
They are opting in for graphic-violence role-play.

It wouldn't replace consent, but would enhance it, perhaps helping people who want to avoid these kinds of plots altogether not get approached for them in the first place.

Just a thought.


Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Malken

  • Posts: 9244
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2021, 01:23:29 PM »
They are opting out of sexual role-play.
They are opting out of torture role-play.
They are opting in for graphic-violence role-play.

It wouldn't replace consent, but would enhance it, perhaps helping people who want to avoid these kinds of plots altogether not get approached for them in the first place.

Just a thought.

No - we had that conversation in the past and most agreed that (again, unfortunately) not opting out of sexual role-play could be seen by some as actually /welcoming/ sexual role-play. A whole new nightmarish situation for female characters.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

mansa

  • Posts: 10255
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2021, 01:32:57 PM »
They are opting out of sexual role-play.
They are opting out of torture role-play.
They are opting in for graphic-violence role-play.

It wouldn't replace consent, but would enhance it, perhaps helping people who want to avoid these kinds of plots altogether not get approached for them in the first place.

Just a thought.

No - we had that conversation in the past and most agreed that (again, unfortunately) not opting out of sexual role-play could be seen by some as actually /welcoming/ sexual role-play. A whole new nightmarish situation for female characters.

As a side note, not to derail the conversation more, but anything like this would definitely default to opt-out when you log into each play session, and would have to be opt-in every play session.  You can't permanently opt-into these types of situations.
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Veselka

  • Posts: 1347
Re: Coercion, manipulation, and sex.
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2021, 01:50:15 PM »
They are opting out of sexual role-play.
They are opting out of torture role-play.
They are opting in for graphic-violence role-play.

It wouldn't replace consent, but would enhance it, perhaps helping people who want to avoid these kinds of plots altogether not get approached for them in the first place.

Just a thought.

No - we had that conversation in the past and most agreed that (again, unfortunately) not opting out of sexual role-play could be seen by some as actually /welcoming/ sexual role-play. A whole new nightmarish situation for female characters.

Hmm. Fair point.


Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant