Coercion, manipulation, and sex.

[Lotion]

a) At what point should players Ask for Consent within their roleplaying session?

When the line of PG13 to R for disturbing content (aside from general murder) is crossed I think that's when it should be asked for. If you were to knock someone out and then do a gratuitous emote about murdering their VNPC baby you should ask consent first and if they don't give it just murder them before killing the baby.

b) Does the act of Asking for Consent and Replying to a Consent Request have any pressure imposed on the participating players to continue scene?

Yes. This can make things especially awkward when people ask for a scene that is likely to need consent in the near future but does not need it yet. i.e. You're probably going to be kanking in like ~10 minutes but they ask consent before the foreplay which you would want to play out but then fade on the kanking.

c) If a player does not want to roleplay out the particular scene, how does this conflict get resolved, and would it be resolved in a different way if the scene continued?

There have absolutely been situations where I wanted to just write "ooc I don't have the available emotional output. Can we just fade the scene?

d) If a player does not want to roleplay out a particular scene, and no participating players have Asked for Consent, when should the player let their discomfort be known?  How should the player let their discomfort be known?

[/code]
They should but I don't really know a well accepted way.

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[quote author=mansa link=topic=56780.msg1059867#msg1059867 date=1619022975]
a) At what point should players [b]Ask for Consent[/b] within their roleplaying session?
[/quote]

[quote author=mansa link=topic=56780.msg1059867#msg1059867 date=1619022975]
b) Does the act of [b]Asking for Consent[/b] and [b]Replying to a Consent Request[/b] have any [i]pressure[/i] imposed on the participating players to continue scene?
[/quote]

[quote author=mansa link=topic=56780.msg1059867#msg1059867 date=1619022975]
c) If a player does not want to roleplay out the particular scene, how does this conflict get resolved, and would it be resolved in a different way if the scene continued?
[/quote]

[quote author=mansa link=topic=56780.msg1059867#msg1059867 date=1619022975]
d) If a player does not want to roleplay out a particular scene, and no participating players have [b]Asked for Consent[/b], when should the player let their discomfort be known?  How should the player let their discomfort be known?
[/quote]

[Robespierre]

>assess <soandso> ooc

They are opting out of sexual role-play.
They are opting out of torture role-play.
They are opting in for graphic-violence role-play.

I think I might need some rules clarification with these comments on torture and graphic roleplay. I thought:

1) If my character wants to mutilate another character, the victim's only option is to request a FTB, but the character remains mutilated.
2) If my character wants to coerce an employee into sexual activity on pain of losing their job, my character needs to state this intent OOCly at the earliest possible opportunity, and if the victim does not consent, my character needs to adjust his motivations. The victim may also request a FTB.
3) If my character wants to rape another character, even with the victim's consent, we may not do that, either narratively or even by FTB.

Is the above not correct? And if so, how (so I don't inadvertently break any rules)?

[LindseyBalboa]

This has gone off on a derail and there are multiple threads here.

The issue isn't how the game handles consent. A new thread for discussing how consent works might be better.

As of right now, you can consent or not consent to a graphic scene, which means that although it was not role-played out, it did indeed happen in game and it will be role-played about.

The issue that was brought up is whether or not sexual coercion should be included in the small list of things that are not allowed to be role-played about, whether or not players want to. This isn't about someone finding it distasteful, there's tons of shit in the game that's distasteful. How muls are made, slavery, half-breeds, murder, etc. Finding something distasteful doesn't really have any bearing on the game, that's your choice to play, and muls are going to explode out of their mothers whether or not you care.

Instead, it's a question of whether or not the line should move on what is allowed to be role-played - theme and player fun balanced against the potential traumatization of fellow players in our community.

[Magnate]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

[Awentawa]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

Consent is an important part of ensuring player safety, especially considering minors are allowed to play.

[th3kaiser]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

Lots of us don't agree and would like some boundaries on our harshness. There are however games that explicitly allow rape in the RPI community if you want to go there instead.

[Malken]

I think this is the best answer we'll get on this subject:

That said, if we feel you are getting your jollies off with a persistent pattern of sexual harassment, gaslighting or other fuckwad activity that may be otherwise within the lines, we reserve the right to do anything from talk to you to store or ban you without notice.

If you're in doubt, ask for consent.

If you think you're about to do something that may make the other player feel uncomfortable, it doesn't hurt to ask for consent even if it's "within" the rules.

If you think you're about to do something that may get you in trouble with staff, then it's probably better not to do it and find another plotline to pursue, or at the very least email or wish up to staff before pursuing it.

[lairos]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

I disagree with you and while I don't think we can always cater to everyone, I think the updates and changes to these lines have been for the best and we should always be mindful of our other players. I'm interested to know why you feel this way. The world of Zalanthas is horrible and full of many disturbing and gory things and while this is true, there are some aspects that are important to keep in mind.
To name just a couple:
1. Requesting consent tries to keep us safe from possible legal issues, much like a signed waiver that you're of age.
2. While people enjoy RP, there are items that are just going pretty far for some people's tastes and it allows us to cater to both sides of the fence.

[Wedi]

Personal attacks are not allowed here. -Hestia

[Riev]

d) If a player does not want to roleplay out a particular scene, and no participating players have Asked for Consent, when should the player let their discomfort be known?  How should the player let their discomfort be known?

I think at any point you are uncomfortable continuing, you should OOC that you would like to fade. You should not have to explain why, and the other side should do nothing but OOC: Fading the rest of the scene. Intention was to end with "X" if that is alright.

However, on the main topic of coercion...

Rape was banned. Engaging in a rape plotline is banned. Having a character talk about rape is banned. Rape in any way has been removed from the active world.
Rape-LIKE things were not banned, and still require consent. This applies directly to coerced sexual encounters, where someone in a Superior political or societal position suggests that you will be killed or murdered or "will not leave this room alive" with the insinuation of sexual favors to be allowed to stay alive.

Brokkr lists this as sexual assault, and not rape, because there is no penetration. This is allowed, so long as both parties consent.

We're asking that this NOT be allowed, regardless of consent. No player should be made to feel that they either have to engage in a triggering or traumatic scene because they feel there will be IC repercussions if there are not.

It is not about whether someone needs to consent sooner, or if not giving consent might lead to death. Its that this situation is potentially traumatizing, and it causes an undue burden on the affected player to acquiesce or suffer in game consequences.

I submit that at that point, this no longer represents a roleplaying game, but a fetish simulator that is willfully and purposefully allowing such acts to take place, in the name of "harshness".

[Robespierre]

This applies directly to coerced sexual encounters, where someone in a Superior political or societal position suggests that you will be killed or murdered or "will not leave this room alive" with the insinuation of sexual favors to be allowed to stay alive.

Shabago said this is rape. His example of "coercion" was "You can get this Salarri armor if you do this sexual favor for me."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, as far as I know, any threat of death, or violence, connected to sex, is banned, and may not be played out even if both parties are alright with it.

I don't happen to agree that two consenting players can't play out their twisted story, but I very much support the idea that you must ask Consent for any sexual scene, and I support players being able to even avoid sexual harassment by OOC no-consenting.

[Riev]

This applies directly to coerced sexual encounters, where someone in a Superior political or societal position suggests that you will be killed or murdered or "will not leave this room alive" with the insinuation of sexual favors to be allowed to stay alive.

Shabago said this is rape. His example of "coercion" was "You can get this Salarri armor if you do this sexual favor for me."

The issue is that this has REPORTEDLY happened at some point in recent history, in a similar fashion as I have described. It was not deemed as against the documentation, so far as I'm aware.

Shabago may have said that it is rape, but he is not the only staff, and his is not the only word which bears weight. Hence... we need to change the docs EVEN IF WE AREN'T CHANGING THE RULE to be more explicit.

[Furious George]

Maybe, enforce but not restrict with a simple change to the process of allowing leaders, allowing these typically higher karma, "mature" veterans who have received these roles to be the gentle nudge without being the -forced- mandate of rule?  I mean, it makes sense anyway that the more powerful your role is, the more careful you have to be to not step in shit.  So if you are high, high power and influence, the onus is on you as a player to be equally careful to respect that responsibility?

On getting an acceptance letter for a role-call or "powerful" special application, once the staff says "You have been selected", why not just have the next step in the process be:
"Do you agree to requesting or requiring consent for (the following actions) that are grey area in the rules, but not explicitly covered in them, without consulting us first via wish or request?"
Check Box:  Yes [] No []

Yes, the Uncle Ben Doctrine.

[zeia]

Is it considered coercive rp for a female character's player to reach out to a male character's player with an OOC channel to offer pregnancy rp, and the chance to refuse? 
Or is that exactly the sort of conversation we should be having in game between players, to not force situations on one another?

I have seen it time and time again where female characters roll up pregnant suddenly, and then kick off when the male wants nothing to do with it, or, isn't wanting to play parental rp.
It is basically Ambush Pregnancy/Parental RP. 

I have generally whenever these situations arise IG, ooc'd to the 'other party' if they are happy with parental RP, as, some people are generally not. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I mean ... if the characters had sex, in theory, it's a pretty natural thing for there to be a chance of pregnancy. I guess OOC consenting pregnancy would be polite but I really don't know if I would create an actual rule for it.

[Maso]

Is it considered coercive rp for a female character's player to reach out to a male character's player with an OOC channel to offer pregnancy rp, and the chance to refuse? 
Or is that exactly the sort of conversation we should be having in game between players, to not force situations on one another?

I have seen it time and time again where female characters roll up pregnant suddenly, and then kick off when the male wants nothing to do with it, or, isn't wanting to play parental rp.
It is basically Ambush Pregnancy/Parental RP. 

I have generally whenever these situations arise IG, ooc'd to the 'other party' if they are happy with parental RP, as, some people are generally not.

That's a fairly big derail there. IMO, no. Make your bed and lie in it - that's an IC situation and a fairly realistic one, so it should be dealt with IC, by refusing to have anything to do with it, if that's the way the character would go. Or take whatever precautions for it not to happen...IC.

[Is Friday]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

ArmageddonMUD should not be a power fantasy for a select few. It ought to be a game which uses cooperative storytelling.

[Wedi]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

***Re-written to remove any hint of personal attacks***
100% Disagree, This is probably one of the most disgusting post I have ever read in my entire Armageddon career. If you, not you specifically Magnate but anyone, believe that allowing people to opt out of sex, rape, or something that makes them uncomfortable is NOT OK, maybe you should check yourself and ask yourself these questions:
1. How does, effectively, forcing people to do sex/rape/fantasy scenes that they would rather opt out of enriching the game/Storyline?
2. Why do I have a problem respecting other players' boundaries?
3. Why do I feel everyone should be forced to go along with a scene I am pushing that makes the PLAYER uncomfortable?

One last question for everyone:
1. Why does anyone think Rape RP, being played/emoted out and forced onto another player, of any kind is ok and enriches the game?

[Ama]

ArmageddonMUD should not be a power fantasy for a select few. It ought to be a game which uses cooperative storytelling.

True. The game has to have a level of cooperative storytelling.

A lot of people, including me, wouldn't want to invest in the experience without at least some rules to protect them from scenarios that involve violent scenes of sexual abuse. The problem stems from the "Direct threat of rape isn't allowed" so people believe there's the potential window for other forms of sexual abuse to still occur, and this's true to some degree. I don't think it would hurt to expound the file with a few more well written lines to explicitly cover scenarios that staff have already outlined as NOT OKAY.

It isn't to deprive people from aspects of storytelling but to protect people from depravity. There is, though, a great big dichotomy since it's perfectly in theme for a character to gratify their own sense of self worth and exhibit power over others. On an OOC level, we all should be trying to respect our peers even if this means we have to set boundaries for our characters sexuality.

Some people have a better time in cooperative storytelling. There'll be people who get to have incredible stories that they've enjoyed more than others, due to many things: luck, better time investment, syncing with the role they're in, or GREAT INCREDIBLE STATS or etc. Some players will have more power to influence the game and others. There has to be a tangle effort to include everyone. This extends, especially, to protecting others from traumatic stories that'd bring harm to them. The rule exists to provide some protection from psychologically harm. The rule for consent for sexual scenes shouldn't even be debated in this thread. They're necessary. People can cause psychological harm to other players by showing the worst face of humanity. This's true even in other mediums where you can't physically harm others, like a phone calls, discord dms, or even a text game.

Take into consideration people can find enjoyment in others suffering or ways to scar someone who's spurned them. Psychopaths delight in it, and there might be a couple of those here.  At the end of the day, staff have to make note of those in the current system, and the community has to trust the admins to handle situations when lines are crossed. If there's a situation where it's even felt a little iffy, there's no harm in opening a dialogue through appropriate channels.

[BadSkeelz]

As stated before, personal attacks are out.

[Narf]

One last question for everyone:
1. Why does anyone think Rape RP, being played/emoted out and forced onto another player, of any kind is ok and enriches the game?

Looking over the posts on this thread so far, Magnate's opinion is clearly an outlier and this question has little baring on, and is a gross distraction from what is actually being discussed.

As the rules stand, a player may request a fade for any scene of a sexual nature, regardless of any other circumstances. What is being discussed is whether or not there should be a rule against coercion that doesn't quite meet the criteria of rape, and how that rule should work.

[Furious George]

Came back to eyeball the discussion because it -is- important.

It's not about protecting snowflakes, it's about making sure the "community" aspect isn't blatantly disregarding the fact that everyone has a voice, if they choose to use it or not.  Empowering players to be able to define their characters is not a bad thing. 

[Shabago]

Next direct attack towards a player results in a lock.

[Lotion]

Next direct attack towards a player results in a lock.

Would you be willing to consider banning problem users temporarily from posting rather than ending a discussing that appears to be otherwise productive.