Content and creation

[Inks]

I mostly agree with spider on the standing on skimmers thing, especially humans (or stumps etc) standing on the larger skimmers. Smaller skimmer sitting only is perfectly fine.

Another thing that needs to be changed is the ability to get off the skimmer in non deadly depths (shoulder height or less, maybe knee high for stumps).

 If the Captain is slain or incapacitated it could potentially lead to a wipe due to the way the order of Captains works, which is more meta than ic. A "commandeer" command to allow the 2ic to take over the skimmer would make sense and also solve a lot of meta problems.

[Spider]

I mostly agree with spider on the standing on skimmers thing, especially humans (or stumps etc) standing on the larger skimmers. Smaller skimmer sitting only is perfectly fine.

Another thing that needs to be changed is the ability to get off the skimmer in non deadly depths (shoulder height or less, maybe knee high for stumps).

 If the Captain is slain or incapacitated it could potentially lead to a wipe due to the way the order of Captains works, which is more meta than ic. A "commandeer" command to allow the 2ic to take over the skimmer would make sense and also solve a lot of meta problems.

Inks comment concerning how the code determines pilot brings to mind another possible solution.  Instead of the code determining who is pilot by the order in which PCs get on the skimmer, there could be a different command to board the skimmer as pilot or as crew.  For example,  sit/stand skimmer as pilot, and sit/stand skimmer as crew.  That way, while combing a let's say 10x20 room region, the Captain can stand and look for certain NPCs without screwing up the roles should a Captain fall off and need to jump back aboard.

I do like the commandeer idea as well, it would solve one big OOC issue.

Edited to add:  However, I do imagine the coding undertaking required to fix room depth interaction, for everyone room that it applies, with getting off a skimmer, as well as how the code determines pilot, might be too much, and requires a simpler solution.

[Pew Pew]

lol  Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.

Why was the comment above necessary and how did it help the discussion?

[gotdamnmiracle]

Hot take: I think realism should come third to quality of life and fun in my games. Keep in mind, you're also sailing on a sea of "silt" which is unlike real silt as it's semi-solid and is closer to ash from a volcano. It's not real.

Therefore it could have any effect on a skimmer that we want it to have. It could float more easily if we wanted it to.

Don't we talk about realism only because we know that is the direction of the game the producers want to go in? So we use it to justify our points and they to justify theirs? As an observation; Armageddon is not very realistic.

[triste]

Hot take: I think realism should come third to quality of life and fun in my games. Keep in mind, you're also sailing on a sea of "silt" which is unlike real silt as it's semi-solid and is closer to ash from a volcano. It's not real.

Therefore it could have any effect on a skimmer that we want it to have. It could float more easily if we wanted it to.

Don't we talk about realism only because we know that is the direction of the game the producers want to go in? So we use it to justify our points and they to justify theirs? As an observation; Armageddon is not very realistic.

I more or less agree, but it took me some time to get there. I have been criticized here for referencing history and literature in my arguments, but I will continue to do so, only in a way that takes it 0% seriously now.

History and "realism," with regards to Armageddon, basically serves the same purpose as metaphor in philosophy. It helps make your argument logically contiguous and thereby organized. It gives a point of reference. It's not a literal call for realism but it is often [not always] a good rhetorical device. When plato mentioned giraffes in his arguments, he was not literally concerned about giraffes, he was making a point. When metaphor, or taking examples from real life, doesn't serve as a good rhetorical device in a given argument, drop it and pick a new implement. Easy peasy.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

lol  Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.

Why was the comment above necessary and how did it help the discussion?

This question, ironically, adds nothing either and just detracts the subject further, back onto a disagreement should have already passed.

When your argument is turned into a strawman and then, someone says I'm just "making stuff up", I don't take kindly to that. Sorry, but I tend to respond to rudeness in kind.

Anyway, while I'm definitely opposed to changing the scan penalties for the pilot, I'm all for lowering it for the other crew. There also may be other creative suggestions to help combat these problems, for example, new built in features to the LOOK <direction> commands when on a skimmer in the silt seas, which may temporarily make your character stand to get a better look - though at the risk of falling should the skimmer move.  What we could also do is let one or two characters (aside from the pilot) stand on the skimmer and hold onto the mast for support. By holding onto the mast, you do not risk falling off and you have no penalties to your perception skills.  That's win-win I think.  Unless somehow the whole mast gets destroyed, in which case everyone is probably screwed anyway.

Other ideas suggested here are also great. Being able to leave the skimmers safely and also to change captain also.. they totally make sense.  Again, this is realism, though it greatly benefits the players in this case.  On the topic of realism:  you just can't have a harsh, gritty world without it.

[Brokkr]

Skimmer code went in before the penalty to scan when you are sitting.  Before the silt automattically hid creatures in it.  As few were set to be hiding, you could sail around the Sea of Silt and see pretty much everything.  It was not very challenging, and it was completely feasible to explore the Sea of Silt with a merchant class.

Other than the Silt hiding creatures in it, nothing was intentionally done to make it harder.  That said, it isn't a bad thing.  You don't -have- to stand up every time.  You could just pilot around, if you aren't hunting anything in particular.

Debating this here is less likely to result in a change than sending in a request detailing the history of changes that has led to the current situation, the aspects of the situation that are problematic, and leaving your opinion out of it as much as you can.

[Dresan]

The whole point of this thread was to offer suggestions and idea of content. Some of which staff have mentioned themselves have sparked some debate.

I admit the thread might have gotten a bit off track with feedback and ideas that are clearly at the producer level or just completely out of the range of 'content'.

However, there is definite merit in discussing ideas and problems with everyone who may or may not be experiencing the same annoying issues together.

Misery likes company after all 

[Pew Pew]

Could we pllllllease implemented a way to review/see way messages missed while linkdead AND/OR logged off.

[Seeker]

Could we pllllllease implemented a way to review/see way messages missed while linkdead AND/OR logged off.

How would this handle it when you are trying to deliberately disappear and leave doubt about whether you are still alive?  How would it react if you have your barrier up in-game?  Would it stack up the messages regardless?   Would it still take messages for you when your PC is dead?

I want the plausible deniability of not getting Templar commands, for example, without him absolutely knowing that I have to get them the moment I log back in.

[LindseyBalboa]

please don't add answering machine deus ex machina to a global network of instantaneous messaging through psionics. if anything I'd be behind instances of characters accidentally Waying the wrong person with messages, like you try to way someone and you think it's the right person and you send some secrets to the wrong target. as it is I can already communicate completely without notice to someone in the same room with no chance of (almost) anyone overhearing me. the ability to just drop off a psionic message to someone that they get hours later is, for lack of a better phrase, OP AF. if you want to talk to someone who isn't getting your messages, just pay someone to deliver the message.

[Pew Pew]

Point Taken about the answering machine thing. The main thing I want is a way to review messages if you are linkdead. You could still act like you did not get the message, if you so chose, but having the option should be available. Going linkdead is an OOC issue and should not result in you not "icly knowing" what was said while your connection was dropped OOCly.

[triste]

Point Taken about the answering machine thing. The main thing I want is a way to review messages if you are linkdead. You could still act like you did not get the message, if you so chose, but having the option should be available. Going linkdead is an OOC issue and should not result in you not "icly knowing" what was said while your connection was dropped OOCly.

Random aside; it is odd to me that people seem to be linkdead more than ever when there are now mobile phone MUD clients, mobile hotspots, and all sorts of tools that allow you to log out in an emergency. I was traveling through the mountains last weekend and lost internet for 20 minutes, but only that; unless you are in Antarctica you don't really have an excuse for being linkdead more than an hour in 2020 AD. I don't care if you are busy, I have 3 jobs and work 80 hrs a week and also miraculously avoid linkdeadness. Frankly I think linkdead people should just do their damndest to log out. We should have 0 tools to help linkdead people, besides maybe a button you can click on armageddon.org to log out IG.  I got to assume best intentions but I am willing to bet a lot of people who chronically have issues with being linkdead are feigning internet problems in an era of near constant connectivity because being linkdead also comes with the OOC advantage of allowing your skill learning timers to cool down. If you add an answering machine for linkdead people I guarantee you are going to see more linkdead people: don't incentivize linkdeadness, it will suck for everyone. The only tool linkdead people need are tools to help them log out because their linkdead presence sucks for everyone else.

[Is Friday]

There are no skill timers which require you to be logged in or connected to reset. You can go skill up, log out, come back X minutes later and skill up again.

People just forget they're logged in.

[lairos]

Correct, skills have nothing to do with it. I would also argue your point of that everyone in the day of connectivity should not ever go LD. Connections stop and fail all the time and also due to the connectivity the playin population had, we are able to log in at places we never could before. This means on a lunch break or for a file to come in, waiting for your friend or whatever it may be. There are countless occasions to where when people play they suddenly drop off instead of logging out and I think we need to assume people normally would, but life happens. I disagree about not having more for LD players because they leave their PC far more at risk than being logged out. Nothing to gain and everything to lose so to speak.

[Pew Pew]

Lairos and Friday basically summed it up.

[triste]

Good to know, was just trying to figure out why people are chronically doing something completely preventable.

My core point still stands and is impossible to refute. The only tools linkdead people should get are tools to help them log out.

A way answering machine helps nothing. If I urgently need to way someone IG, I don't want my stun points to be wasted on a Linkdead person. Linkdead people literally get people killed that way.

Linkdead people bring nothing good to the game with their presence so the only tools Linkdead people need are tools to log out, period. And frankly they do not need these tools because quit OOC and about 10 other tools already exist to help them.

[lairos]

I think such tools are useless. If I am link dead due to connectivity issues how would expect someone then to access in order to use them? When many do play from phones like was mentioned it seems useless. On the flip side of non connectivity issues? Yes there is quit ooc but as an example? If my child starts crying or something happens you better believe I wont hesitate to either close the laptop or drop the phone immediately because I'm not going to take the time to type a single thing because RL comes first 100% of the time. I don't see the point. Sending messages and things to offline people has been discussed many times before and I don't see it coming, but it makes some sense only because in normal situations, outside of barrier, you'd be able to find them. Though you'd go to the next person as you do now.

[triste]

Tools beyond the ones existing are useless, correct. I was just trying to brainstorm new ones:

- When 10 people try to way a linkdead person you get an automated email saying "You forgot to hang up the phone, silly 💋"

- When your linkdead character starts starving the player is sent a picture of their mother/parent saying "Do you need more chocolate milk sweetie? I thought you've learned to clean up after yourself by now!"

OR we can just let people suffer the consequences of their mistake. That is how children learn mommy won't always clean up after them.

But agreed with linz; Psionic voice-mail isn't the cure for linkdeadness.

[lairos]

I would say no to any of the emails unless its after an hour or being ld you get an email reminding you that you should log out. No other prompts should be given pr automatic log outs since that too could be abused. I think it is the way it has been where outside of a reminder that you may have forgotten you are on your own.

Something possible to add for those who are sending ways to LD people is when you send a way their sdesc also has an LD tag or it doesn't allow you to send it with a message as if they're asleep or a different message.

[triste]

I would say no to any of the emails unless its after an hour or being ld you get an email reminding you that you should log out. No other prompts should be given pr automatic log outs since that too could be abused. I think it is the way it has been where outside of a reminder that you may have forgotten you are on your own.

Something possible to add for those who are sending ways to LD people is when you send a way their sdesc also has an LD tag or it doesn't allow you to send it with a message as if they're asleep or a different message.

If it wasn't obvious the emails were facetious. I could get behind the idea in your second paragraph and have recommended that to staff after they sent me a message about someone I wayed being linkdead. Might as well automate what staff are doing manually. I see no reason for staff not to want it.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Well, sometimes you might get a really spotty connection.   I know sometimes with Comcast, their service would suddenly stop, appear to be working for a few minutes, then go down again. This would go on for hours....

A tool to help a linkdead person log off might help in that situation.

[Kyviantre]

I've seen someone linkdead for 8 hours.  Honestly, if someone is linkdead (not idling, but their connection has dropped), the game SHOULD kick them off after 10 minutes.  For the person I saw linkdead that long, I tried wishing up in the end to see if they could get bumped off the game, because it was beyond ridiculous!

I am genuinely surprised it doesn't.  Every other game I've played, if you're linkdead after X amount of time, it boots you from the game...people shouldn't still be lurking hours afterwards like a spectre at the feast.  Yes, you shouldn't go linkdead, but life happens.  Connections drop, emergencies occur, and so on...

[triste]

For some reason staff do not have a policy of disconnecting linkdead PCs currently. I know some characters have died of thirst while the player was linkdead and not revived so this policy may be out of fairness to those who died [lol].

But if it were automated somehow as you all are proposing in various ways that might be an agreeable solution. And again I like Lairos's idea too about the echo.

Edit: the reply to this post with citations is a good reminder that though I am busy I should cite sources too.

Staff won't log out linkdead players: fact, source, staff statements, I can dig up logs but I bill $30/hour

Player dying of thirst while linkdead: Some guy on discord. Maybe he was lying, maybe it was before the update, maybe he had a script interfering with the idle script. I bill $1,000,000/hour for digging up discord logs because you cannot pay enough to convince me to join that server again.

[mansa]

For some reason staff do not have a policy of disconnecting linkdead PCs currently. I know some characters have died of thirst while the player was linkdead and not revived so this policy may be out of fairness to those who died [lol].

But if it were automated somehow as you all are proposing in various ways that might be an agreeable solution. And again I like Lairos's idea too about the echo.

It's coded that after 1 hour of idle your thirst / hunger levels stop increasing, same as when linkdead.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/general/updates/view.php?week=48&year=2008
Full people can eat tablets after next reboot -- Nessalin.
People over 1hr idle will no longer lose hunger/thirst (treated as linkdead) -- Nessalin.