Bitching about the economy updates/questions thread: Armor edition

[Riev]

Side-note:

At one point, I tried to institute a Byn-wide ban on super-armor while training, and that most people had to wear simple leathers like mekillot sleeves and such. Heavy leather, but still moveable.

If you were a Trooper+, you could train in your Heavies to get used to a Lancer-like attack, etc etc.

I would be all for a distinct difference between the armors, such as what Veselka is saying. Light armor keeps you mobile, dodge tank-worthy, capable of advanced maneuvers and a hundred kicks until the end of the fight.
Plate armor? You're draining 2-3x the stamina now.

I wouldn't be opposed to a skill in No Armor/Light Armor/Medium/Heavy that assists with the intended DR of the armor, but that's an ideal Best Timeline.

I am just hoping that there becomes a real tactical decision between what armor you have. Heavy but Manageable in plate armor vs Light in cloth is almost no contest. Not being hit is far FAR superior to the potential DR of a heavy piece of armor.

[Cind]

Make a section in the Salaar shop just for half-giants.

There's some unused room in the bazaar, and a few weapons which are more than tiny daggers in their hands. Make a greatsword and a longsword, and a couple of sets of armor, one expensive and one cheap, and add that to the mix, and now the first few days of half-giant play are no longer a pain in the ass.

They are a disadvantaged and rare group, but a necessary part of the Arm and Byn, especially when out killing mekillots or something like that. I think a stall for them would be ICly justified.

[Vox]

I like Riev's idea of a light armor/heavy armor skill that increases both the Damage Reduction and lowers the weight of that armor type as the skill gets higher. Indicating one becoming proficient in both its defensive capabilities and used to the feel of it.

Then make skill caps based on race:(with possible caveats in main or sub-guild choices?)

Elves get higher light armor proficiency potential but lower or no heavy armor.

Humans/half-elves are mid in both.

Dwarves/mul/half-giants are low proficiency light amor and high heavy.

[Riev]

I like Riev's idea of a light armor/heavy armor skill that increases both the Damage Reduction and lowers the weight of that armor type as the skill gets higher. Indicating one becoming proficient in both its defensive capabilities and used to the feel of it.

Then make skill caps based on race:(with possible caveats in main or sub-guild choices?)

Elves get higher light armor proficiency potential but lower or no heavy armor.

Humans/half-elves are mid in both.

Dwarves/mul/half-giants are low proficiency light amor and high heavy.

I feel as though there's a lot more to it, though. Leather shouldn't, even at elven mastery, have as much DR as a newbie dwarf in heavy armor. So how do you make it worthwhile to USE the light armor, unless light armor gives bonuses to defense (+2 for every 10 points, max of 60, or +12 to defense?).

Light armor = Max 60, Every 10 points provides +2 to natural defense
Medium armor = max 60, every 10 points provides +1 to natural defense, +1 to DR
Heavy armor = max 60, every 10 points provides 1.5 to DR (to max out at 9 flat DR for mastery)

[th3kaiser]

I don't really see a need for more skills. I'd prefer a simpler system where armor gives a damage soak and slight natural defense penalty.
Light armor= Least Damage Soak, least penalty
Heavy= Highest Soak and highest penalty due to being wrapped up in heavy chitin or whatever.

[Brokkr]

The direction the work is taking is around the economy and secondarily the characteristics of the items themselves and making those consistent and have some logic across the item database.  We aren't talking about code changes to how those items factor into different things such as combat, currently, because as noted this is primarily a project around the economy, not armor and its function.

[Aruven]

The economy is.... something that hasn't been 'smoothed out' in 20 years or so now. I'd rather not wade into that fully.

As for this armor discussion:

Are we all aware that there ARE benefits/cons added to most of the armors in game that effect more than the weight already? (A lot of things being asked for, even)

This seems to be very nit picky and the player base ignores about 90% of what already exists. (Is it so bad to just expect someone to roleplay for now that they shouldn't wear full obsidian sets of armor as an elf while we solve other problems?)

I feel like this conversation has merit, yet it seems very unrealistic to actually consider, until the basics of how the economy will work can be put down and agreed upon.

[Vox]

Well, seeing as the economy is far more involved than armor prices and weights, but armor is the only focus right now, it seems appropriate to posit ideas surrounding the current topic.. Brokkr mentioned they aren't looking at code additions currently so let's file this away as just an idea, not sure why bringing it up is an issue.

Anyway, if they're only adjusting value and possibly weight while keeping a focus on playability then yes I'm also interested in seeing what the first round of adjustments look like to get a feel for what the direction will be.. until then, I still think the idea of specialized armor skills is cool, if they further reduced weight for you(which does not happen currently) as well as damage(currently related more to defense skill).

[Aruven]

Bringing it up isn't an issue.

I type up a whole thing but, meh. Please carry on.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I feel as though there's a lot more to it, though. Leather shouldn't, even at elven mastery, have as much DR as a newbie dwarf in heavy armor. So how do you make it worthwhile to USE the light armor, unless light armor gives bonuses to defense (+2 for every 10 points, max of 60, or +12 to defense?).

Light armor = Max 60, Every 10 points provides +2 to natural defense
Medium armor = max 60, every 10 points provides +1 to natural defense, +1 to DR
Heavy armor = max 60, every 10 points provides 1.5 to DR (to max out at 9 flat DR for mastery)

I like this.

We're just talking about stuff. I don't think anybody is bugging out about this - it's nice to have conversations about what if and how.

[Synthesis]

Bleeeegh. Armor-type skills. That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

[Cerelum]

Personally I think it's a step in the right direction.

I'd rather have staff trying to make the economy work better than to have some of it how it is now.

There are some craft skills that can net you a metric ton of sids for little to no effort or risk of acquisition.

The only thing economically that I find disappointing is something happened to make salting much less profitable, however probably more in theme instead of having everyone be a salt baron.

[Shabago]

Random update, end of week 1

449 items adjusted/updated or in some cases, discarded.
103 crafts added/reworked

Roughly 20 to 22% of the way through all armor items.

[Namino]

Random update, end of week 1

449 items adjusted/updated or in some cases, discarded.
103 crafts added/reworked

Roughly 20 to 22% of the way through all armor items.

Good hustle.

[Roon]

I noticed that something my character wears is now wanted by 'rinth muggers, where it previously wasn't. Is this a consequence of these changes? The odd thing is that its apparent value (via the value skill) still falls far below what should be the limit. Value tells me the item is worth 33 coins, so I don't quite understand why it now gets me jumped by muggers.

[Bushranger]

I've also noticed that resizing a piece of armour has dramatically changed the value today by more than three times higher. The merchant I had bought it from is also offering as much as I paid for it to buy it back. I've bugged the item in game, I would suggest that you also bug the item so that staff can identify the exact item you're referring to Roon.

[Shabago]

I've also noticed that resizing a piece of armour has dramatically changed the value today by more than three times higher. The merchant I had bought it from is also offering as much as I paid for it to buy it back. I've bugged the item in game, I would suggest that you also bug the item so that staff can identify the exact item you're referring to Roon.

You had good timing on said item. Bought before the change, now worth more because of its ingredients. Coin to be made for you, Bushranger

Roon, you'd have to bug the item in game for me to know, as BR says. I've been trying to be cautious for any would-be rinth items, but it's possible one can sneak through with a missed label.

[Shabago]

It's that time for another update (I'll do these weekly, I figure)

825 items adjusted/updated or in some cases discarded.

301 already in-game, updated or pending crafts

Roughly 40% of the way through armor.

[Dresan]

Hey,
Thanks again for taking the time to do this!

There have been shell/chitin sleeves that weigh half that of leather. And half the grip with low strength character is the fact you often have to choose between a helmet and a waterskin. Gear is a cool aspect of the game so happy to see it getting looked at. I look forward to seeing what it looks like at the end.

[Shabago]

1100 items adjusted/updated or in some cases discarded.

437 already in-game, updated or pending crafts

We're just about on that 50% mark done folks.

[Vex]

Will there be a listing, of which armors have been changed?

Specifically, the weights. The armor value and economic value are less important, but knowing which piece of armor we're wearing has caused our enc to shoot up, would be rather nice. Especially for elves and extremely young or old pcs.

[X-D]

I am hoping so, something, been wondering why my enc has been so crazy...totally forgot they are changing things.

[Shabago]

A list isn't really doable, as it's quite literally every item that we have in game. If you wear armor at all, you can expect it to change - if it hasn't yet, it will over the next month or so.

As something of a tip off, the overhaul is also geared towards realism as much as it is balancing out our economy. Skinny, weak elves should not really be wearing all silt-horror or bahamet, for example. Your 'average' horror shell is pulling a weight of 80 stone (160 pounds for the sake of an even number) - Breastplates are normally half to whole shell crafts - Now factor in all your other assorted wear locations and, even with smaller portions of the shell to fit the smaller locations (wrist/neck) you're still looking at a minimum of two whole shells worth (320lbs).

Will a full suit of horror actually equal 320lbs worth in game? No. Play-ability is ever a factor.
Will you be struggling to wear a full suit of horror? Maybe. It depends on a number of factors.
Will a balance be possible to find, that both offers protection and reasonable weight balance? Absolutely.

[Dar]

That post is making me worried, since the logic is so faulty.


Keep in mind, a lot of armor is leather with shell bits stitched in on it, sort of thing. Not just a full shell.

I just hope after everything is finished. You'll take every race into account, make an approximate list of which armors that race would be able to normally wear and contemplate if that is how it should be.

[rinthrat]

A list isn't really doable, as it's quite literally every item that we have in game. If you wear armor at all, you can expect it to change - if it hasn't yet, it will over the next month or so.

As something of a tip off, the overhaul is also geared towards realism as much as it is balancing out our economy. Skinny, weak elves should not really be wearing all silt-horror or bahamet, for example. Your 'average' horror shell is pulling a weight of 80 stone (160 pounds for the sake of an even number) - Breastplates are normally half to whole shell crafts - Now factor in all your other assorted wear locations and, even with smaller portions of the shell to fit the smaller locations (wrist/neck) you're still looking at a minimum of two whole shells worth (320lbs).

Will a full suit of horror actually equal 320lbs worth in game? No. Play-ability is ever a factor.
Will you be struggling to wear a full suit of horror? Maybe. It depends on a number of factors.
Will a balance be possible to find, that both offers protection and reasonable weight balance? Absolutely.

The craft might need a full shell, but are you really going to fit most of that material into a breastplate? Aren't these things huge!? If you're not a half-giant, it seems safe to assume that most of that shell would end up tossed away, or used for other things that aren't your breastplate.