Things that annoy me

[witchman]

Alright, the unrealness of this annoys me and has been presented to several of my characters when they've applied for work with noble houses.
I would love to hear comments (either way) about this topic.

Most recently (and as I mentioned, often in the past as well) my no-nothing newbie PC (still wet-behind the ears) is nearly pushed into a job by a recruiter desperate for warm bodies.  They have approached my bar-slouching arse each time.  Each time I have indicated I'm looking for work elsewhere.  They then go on about their own organization and how they might benefit my character.  

All fine and good.  I understand both the IC and OOC of all that.

Then comes the traditional presentation before the nobility where each character has to explain why they are seeking work with that house.
Did I miss something here?
I didn't really have it as a goal to work for a noble house, it was pushed on me and I thought hell, if the guy is going to pay me, it's sounds like a good job.

So my gripe is this: If recruiters for houses are going to grab every lame-ass they find on the street, then the pc shouldn't be expected to come up with some altruistic reason for wanting to work for the house.  It shouldn't be expected, nor sould the "vow for life" tradition.

If you are going to recruit like the Byn does, then expect your empoyees to act like the Byn.

If you want dedicated and truly loyal employees wait for the experienced ones to come to YOU.

Make your starting soldier's pay 500 or 600 coins (or more)  plus armor, mounts and all that.  Require them to have experience with another military organization.  Make them /really/ pass an exam that requires they can handle a sword, guard a body or whatever.

Well, I guess that's the end of my gripe.  :-)

[Summer]

I agree with you on all those points.

Its worse if the recruiter then gives you a bad rep if you get firm on saying no.

I wish there were more options than the "for life" agreements, but I guess that is me bring my current day views into Arm. Of course you can always stay independant if you try hard enough...

I really like the idea of providing some tests before people join houses, you could even then see the rise of schools similar to the Byn, but slightly different... I'd see it more like you pay the school, they teach you, if you survive and get a job with a house, part of your pay goes to the school for a while. That might alleviate some of the problems with 300 sid not covering training for a year. You have to pay for your own food/water/lodgings, you just get lessons.

[Hoodwink]

I agree with you, Witchman, I do, but the problem with your point...

If you want dedicated and truly loyal employees wait for the experienced ones to come to YOU.

Make your starting soldier's pay 500 or 600 coins (or more) plus armor, mounts and all that. Require them to have experience with another military organization. Make them /really/ pass an exam that requires they can handle a sword, guard a body or whatever.

...is that a) Rarely will anyone meeting those credentials come along, so the nobles are left to pretty mug BEG (however OOC that may seem) just for the sake of populating their clan.  Then once you've joined they expect you to treat them like the nobles they are and show your desire to have the job you've so graciously been offered, since the IC reality is that, chances are, you really have been offered the job of a lifetime, even if that is not your OOC objective with your character.  And b) When you setup requirements like having to spend a year in another clan, harsh screening, and so on, you effectively lower your player base to zero in almost every scenario.  If I make a character concept and think, "Hey, I want her in the Oash Elite", I'm not going to puts around in some other clan for a year+ and possibly die between now and then just to even enter the original clan of my desire.

I think what we're seeing here are the results of too many clans.  Though many of you will disagree, I think 5 nobles houses scattered between Allanak and Tuluk are far too many to support our player base, if you take into account all the other existing clans.  People want choices, however, so closing any of those clans may invariably upset a lot of the player base.  What's to be done then?  I guess putting up with nobles who really push recruiting -- even if it sometimes bends reality -- is the lesser of those evils.

[Callisto]

... you could even then see the rise of schools similar to the Byn...

The Byn isn't a school.

As far as I know the three hundred coins is enough to cover the cost of your an aba and training gear, the training, food and shelter is the company investing in future recruits in order to maintain a solid base of fighting men and women.

Just wanted to point that out.

[mansa]

Clans that aren't permemeent employeeement:

Merchant House Kadius.
Merchant House Salarr.
Byn.
Atrium.

And sometimes Kurac.

Remember, you can always negoatiate your contract with people, just like in real life.
I'm tired.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Witchman has brought up a good point. There are too many clans for folks not to force recruit. Here is my view on this.

People want choices. That is very good. Have a poll (in fact, I am going to have one now) regarding which 2 noble houses folks want to see open in Allanak. There are already only two in the north, so there is no problem there.

So, let us say this. We have 3 noble houses in the south and 2 noble houses in the north. We have four merchant houses, the two desert elf clans and the two gypsy/tribal human clans. We also have the militias and Templarete in either city-state. With the Byn and the Guild, we have 2 more Immortal supported clans.

So, we have 3+2+4+2+2+2+2+2=19 clans! Add to this organizations like the Atrium, the various player-run clans, and the lone rangers and hunter folks, or the the tavern-sitters and so forth. Suddenly we have an idea of why the player-base is so diluted.

How about this?

We will have 2 noble houses in the south and 2 in the north. We will have 3 merchant houses, taking out Nenyuk. We will have 1 Immortal supported elven clan and 1 Immortal supported human clan. We will keep the militias and the Templaretes. We will also keep the Byn, but the Guild will disappear or be player run. I would suggest that at one point, perhaps when the player who runs the Atrium retires or decides to move on, that that clan also be picked up by the Immortals.

So, per my suggestions and adjustments, we will have 2+2+3+1+1+2+2+2. We have now cut the total number of Immortal run clans to 15. Ok, and we still have the various and numerous player organizations and loners.

Now, what is to stop a dirth in the player allotments? Ah hah. A solution! Limit each noble/merchant/milita clan to 10 active combat oriented PCs, 5 active servant/merchant PCs, and 2 noble/family member PCs. Limit each tribe to 7 PCs, period. The Byn, being a mercenary unit, would only take on folks who are not promised to another clan, or folks who are virtual tribals. Suddenly, jobs are a lot more precious.

You may note that I said active when pertaining to fighter and servant roles in the noble/merchant houses. Here is why. Perhaps, as I did a number of times with a long-lived character, a player goes on a Sabbatical, for whatever reason. The House hires another PC to fill in the ranks while that player is not active. When that play comes back, the PC who just had a job is released. This creates 'mercenaries', and this creates hope, and reason to kill for work, etc.

With jobs limited, suddenly you will lose the recruit mentality, and you will have a much harsher world, where a person actually has to struggle because he or she is not accepted by any House.

I also think that you will see the player base centralize more between the two city-states in regards to House population.

I realize that I took out the Nenyuk house, one of the most essential Houses in regards to housing and other matters. Let me make an adjustment. There would be two PCs for that House, and the role would be ranging, for they would have to do a good amount of travel to keep up with the Housing demands.

****************************************

Now, which Noble House would you choose to close in Allanak, if the descision were put to you?

A. Tor

B. Oash

C. Borsail

[marilla]

The problem with the solution with

Limit each noble/merchant/milita clan to 10 active combat oriented PCs, 5 active servant/merchant PCs, and 2 noble/family member PCs.

is the same as with Leadership positions when people go away.

You tell the unhappy employee: "I don't understand what you mean. You say you are lonely, yet we have ten people in your unit. I know I have not seen any of them in two months, but surely you see them daily."

or

You tell the hopeful recruit: "I really would like to hire you, but there is no room in the ranks. Perhaps next month..."

think That they are busy doing something and never seen, is irrelevant. Unfortunately.

People do simply stop logging on, sometimes the PCs go away too and the recruiters won't know that.

Of course, the keyword may be 'active', but how much constitutes to 'active'? And who would keep track of everyone's activity level?

[mansa]

Now, which Noble House would you choose to close in Allanak, if the descision were put to you?

A. Tor

B. Oash

C. Borsail

I would cry if one of those noble houses were closed off.  You can't close down Oash and not have the game affected in some way.  Who's the Borsail noble to politic with, when there's no 'enemy'.   A tor?  Ha!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Of course, the keyword may be 'active', but how much constitutes to 'active'? And who would keep track of everyone's activity level?

I would call active logging on at least 4 times a week, or, averaging at least 15-20 hours of play a week.

Who would keep track of this? The clan Immortal. There should be an IMM command that notes the last time a player logged on. In addition, most players tell others in their GBD clan board when they are going away for a long time. Added to this the ability to e-mail the player and such, and a good clan IMM should be able to be pretty accurate in keeping track of this. Communication regarding these issues between leaders and Immortals help greatly in the PC's knowledge and ability to act correctly.

If any Immortal needs tips, talk to Vendrya.

Yes, I know. A shameless plug. But I swear, Vendrya was the most involved Immortal I have ever met, even while attending school.

Mansa: Actually, you can close any clan and it won't affect the world ICly or OOCly, because the Immortals use Houses which are not open to run plots for many a time. All the PC would be missing is the cool azure and black gear Oash employees get. PCs need to have to fight for jobs, and clans need to be turning folks away, not wandering the streets looking for folks.

[mansa]

Mansa: Actually, you can close any clan and it won't affect the world ICly or OOCly, because the Immortals use Houses which are not open to run plots for many a time. All the PC would be missing is the cool azure and black gear Oash employees get. PCs need to have to fight for jobs, and clans need to be turning folks away, not wandering the streets looking for folks.

Try and run a Borsail noble.   One that doesn't touch the Wyverns, or do combat things.  One that JUST politics.  Who's left to fight, within the city?
Does the conflict just resort to North vs South, and no inner conflict within the city?   Will you ever be scared of a dagger in your back, from your own personal guards being paid off by an Oashi?  No, because you wo'nt hire that Northern Accented assassin.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A cap of seventeen on each clan, if that's indeed what you're saying, seems useless.  Clans almost never even come close to that amount of people.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A cap of seventeen on each clan, if that's indeed what you're saying, seems useless.  Clans almost never even come close to that amount of people.

That may be a very good point. Keep in mind that we are killing two desert clans and one noble clan though. But still, maybe that is a good point.

In that case, let us reduce numbers. 8 combat oriented PCs, 3 non-combat oriented, and 2 nobles. That makes the number 13, 5 less.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

T7DV wrote:

I would call active logging on at least 4 times a week, or, averaging at least 15-20 hours of play a week.

You're kidding... Right? Even during the summer, when I have nothing better to do than sit on my ass an play Armageddon, and I'd be -lucky- to hit 12 hours in a week. I had a PC that I played with for 2 RL years, and he only hit 20 days before he died.

I mean, sweet Tek man, people have better things to do. I thought a gangsta like yourself would have a lot of caps to bust, cutting down on your Armageddon time... Do you mean to tell me you play Armageddon 4+ hours every day? If that's the expectation for a character in a clan, then don't be suprised to see a lot of solo hunters or crafters popping up. Krath!

[witchman]

Bah, the solution is to utterly wipe one of the cities off the face of the known world.

My vote is for wasting Tuluk again and hopefull the Highlord will do it right this time.  :-)

I would love to see the area revert to the type of lifestyle before Muk came to power, a collection of loosely organized barbarian tribes.

But, that's just me.

The plus is that it consolidates city-orientated folk, making the city actually team with people, the downside is loosing the tremendous amount of work the staff and players have put in to make Tuluk what it is (I mean, besides the VERY LONG streets)  :-)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...I'd be -lucky- to hit 12 hours in a week. I had a PC that I played with for 2 RL years, and he only hit 20 days before he died.

Hrmph. I am pretty sure that most folks get 12 hours a week. Go to work, play 2 hours 5 days a week, total. Go to school, etc... Every single Armageddon player I know hits 15 hours a week EASY.

And I do not bust caps anymore. I am a nerd like you all now...just not as nerdy.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

The real solution is to push recruiting in RL!  We need more players so bad...

But, if I'd have to pick, there are two clans that seem redundant to me: Salarr and Kadius.  They're different as far as personality, of course, but as far as what people actually do in them, they seem the same.  I don't believe they're ever in conflict with each other (although they easily could be as far as I know), so we wouldn't be removing a source of conflict.  Basically, they're just two separate pools of merchants, hunters, and crafters that could be merged.

I wouldn't want to do this, but it's an option.  But then you think...would it really even help anything, merging two clans like that?  You'd just get one big clan that still drains away the same numbers of people from the other clans.  I think you'd have to remove more than one to make a difference, but all the other options for removal are too painful to consider, imo.

We're just screwed until we increase our numbers oocly.  I mean, we're trying to populate two entire -cities- on 50 people active at any one time.  NPC's can only do so much--this is basically an impossible job.

[Rindan]

I strongly disagree with clan caps.  Clans get large populations when strong leaders arise.  Clans get low populations when weak leaders are in charge.  I would rather see the clans with strong and active leaders draw the playerbase to them then artificially cut these people off at the knees for a weak leader who couldn't fill up his clan if he tried.  I know for instance that Kurac for a time had a population to rival the Byn.  They had it that high because they had at least three very skilled leaders and people wanted to join up.  I would rather see this, then have these three skilled leaders have their talents go to waste.

Personally, I think the entire focus of the game is being shifted in the wrong direction.  Closing down the Guild?  If it isn't already inactive that is about the last thing I would close down.  Armageddon is a world for the harsh and the gritty.  Yet, despite the fact that this a world about desperation the clans that get the most support are the ones where that is the least important aspect to their existence.  I would rather The Guild then a noble house.  I would rather see militia and Templars then Tor.  I would rather see Kurac then Kadius.

I am not saying forget nobility and that entire aristocracy altogether.  They do play an important and vital role.  I just think that it should be remembered what the game is about.  The game is about a brutal desert environment with little water and little food.  This defines the game and this is what drives the society to be the way it is.  I think you loose a lot of this when everyone is a noble servant, noble guard, or in some way a clean cut support role for nobility.  These are the few people who never need to think about where their next cup of water is going to come from.  I would much prefer to see more commoner oriented clans being open up over trying to bolster noble houses. I would rather see the dark and harsh underworld be explored in greater detail then the overriding politics.

[spawnloser]

I'll have to disagree with you a bit, Rindan...with the way the population of the mud swings around, a region will lose some of it's 'good-to-employ' characters...at which point, the picky don't hire all the rest of the undesireables like someone else might.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I hate agreeing with Rindan, dammit.

But yes, I guess that is actually a point.

My point is less clans, more clamour for jobs. The more clamour for jobs, the harsher the world. That is why I brought up a cap.

[crymerci]

Sorry, I have to disagree with just about everyone here. :!:

If you, OOCly, do not want to have your character hired on by a noble house, then you need to instill something in their background or being which makes them unsuitable, and trust me, anyone who's ever gone through an interview with a noble knows that there are things you can say or do or have in your history that will work.

Because, the IC reality is, if nearly any commoner was offered the opportunity your character got offered, they would JUMP at it and grovel in gratitude. I almost never see this portrayed accurately. You say that it is not IC for nobles to have to recruit, but IMNSHO it's much poorer roleplay to try to refuse employment with a noble house.

[My 2 sids]

Alright, two things.  

One, with regards to logging on, maybe 12 hours is asking a lot... but it takes almost no time to fire off an email.  I think even if people who don't log on could just email the clan Imm or –something- where players would know the difference between RL getting in the way, or RL deciding to quit playing the game or IC death.  Waiting three or four RL WEEKS to get a simple reply from someone is just too frustrating.

Two, I personally think clan caps would be great.  With a very limited player base... and wanting to keep so many rooms/cities limiting the number of people with in each clan will help to keep up competition and role-play as opposed to solo play after suddenly finding yourself the sole member of a clan.  I know people have said "the strongest clan recruit the most"... but actually that is not a valid point.  Statistically this argument is flawed... a basic example would be the American "college Greek" system.  Greek societies have found that placing caps on all Greek membership actually helps numbers and maintains a healthy competition with all members.  Follow the logic...  If one clan holds the stronger players other stronger players flock to that one clan... eventually, with all strong players in one clan, the separation between one clan and another grows so large... we actually are only left with one clan instead of two.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

About Noble Houses and jobs:

I don't think it's true that people would always grovel for the opportunity to join a Noble house.  These jobs are -for life- first of all.  I think that in itself would be enough to turn a lot of people away.  Secondly, there's way too much responsibilty involved for the average joe--if you do something wrong, you could get seriously punished, or even killed.  I'd imagine working for a noble would be very stressful.  Most commoners would think nobles to be a better breed of human, for sure, but that doesn't mean that they'd want anything to do with them.

For the middle (if this exists) and upper classes, yes, they'd love to have an opportunity to climb the social ladder and join a noble house.  But, the lower classes really don't believe this to be a possibility, and would probably take a few sids every now and then and be left alone rather than deal with the stress of working in a noble house.

[Dan]

I wish I could find such job security as the promis of food, water, bedding and storage for life. This would be a reason why you would -want- to join a noble house, not why you wouldn't want to. We should all be so lucky, even in real life. Im with the idea that we should give many more benefits to those joining noble houses as guards and aides. People seek out the nobles for work instead of the other way around. It should be a respected position that people seek out.

[CindyLou]

I wish I could find such job security as the promis of food, water, bedding and storage for life. This would be a reason why you would -want- to join a noble house, not why you wouldn't want to. We should all be so lucky, even in real life. Im with the idea that we should give many more benefits to those joining noble houses as guards and aides. People seek out the nobles for work instead of the other way around. It should be a respected position that people seek out.

Right. As long as you understand that if your boss has a beef with your mother, and orders you to kill her, then you gotta do it or risk being tossed out into the desert buck naked with no water. Or worse.

And as long as you understand that if you play it right, you can make enough coins to own your own damned house instead of living on a cot with a hundred other smelly sweaty people, but choose instead the "luxury" of free food and water that you can get on your own if you made the effort.

And as long as you realize that if you play a guard character for a house, chances are you will never have to do any actual guarding, but instead most of your time will be spent standing at a table watching people come in and out, basically solo-emoting - or if you're really lucky, being able to eavesdrop on the conversations and become a spy, which wasn't what you thought you were signing up for, but hey - free food and a cot in the barracks..

This isn't a beef. I LOVED being in House Oash. Had a blast, enjoyed every minute of it, no regrets. I'm just playing devil's advocate here to point out that free food/water/clothing/eq means nothing in a world where all of that can be stripped from you if you cross your eyes by mistake.

[Barzalene]

Take the job, don't take the job. Whatever. Yeah, people shouldn't ruin your pc's life if you say no politely or make yourself unattractive in some way. On the other hand, recruiters are supposed to recruit. Why shouldn't they enjoy it?