Things that annoy me

[witchman]

Alright, the unrealness of this annoys me and has been presented to several of my characters when they've applied for work with noble houses.
I would love to hear comments (either way) about this topic.

Most recently (and as I mentioned, often in the past as well) my no-nothing newbie PC (still wet-behind the ears) is nearly pushed into a job by a recruiter desperate for warm bodies.  They have approached my bar-slouching arse each time.  Each time I have indicated I'm looking for work elsewhere.  They then go on about their own organization and how they might benefit my character.  

All fine and good.  I understand both the IC and OOC of all that.

Then comes the traditional presentation before the nobility where each character has to explain why they are seeking work with that house.
Did I miss something here?
I didn't really have it as a goal to work for a noble house, it was pushed on me and I thought hell, if the guy is going to pay me, it's sounds like a good job.

So my gripe is this: If recruiters for houses are going to grab every lame-ass they find on the street, then the pc shouldn't be expected to come up with some altruistic reason for wanting to work for the house.  It shouldn't be expected, nor sould the "vow for life" tradition.

If you are going to recruit like the Byn does, then expect your empoyees to act like the Byn.

If you want dedicated and truly loyal employees wait for the experienced ones to come to YOU.

Make your starting soldier's pay 500 or 600 coins (or more)  plus armor, mounts and all that.  Require them to have experience with another military organization.  Make them /really/ pass an exam that requires they can handle a sword, guard a body or whatever.

Well, I guess that's the end of my gripe.  :-)

[Summer]

I agree with you on all those points.

Its worse if the recruiter then gives you a bad rep if you get firm on saying no.

I wish there were more options than the "for life" agreements, but I guess that is me bring my current day views into Arm. Of course you can always stay independant if you try hard enough...

I really like the idea of providing some tests before people join houses, you could even then see the rise of schools similar to the Byn, but slightly different... I'd see it more like you pay the school, they teach you, if you survive and get a job with a house, part of your pay goes to the school for a while. That might alleviate some of the problems with 300 sid not covering training for a year. You have to pay for your own food/water/lodgings, you just get lessons.

[Hoodwink]

I agree with you, Witchman, I do, but the problem with your point...

If you want dedicated and truly loyal employees wait for the experienced ones to come to YOU.

Make your starting soldier's pay 500 or 600 coins (or more) plus armor, mounts and all that. Require them to have experience with another military organization. Make them /really/ pass an exam that requires they can handle a sword, guard a body or whatever.

...is that a) Rarely will anyone meeting those credentials come along, so the nobles are left to pretty mug BEG (however OOC that may seem) just for the sake of populating their clan.  Then once you've joined they expect you to treat them like the nobles they are and show your desire to have the job you've so graciously been offered, since the IC reality is that, chances are, you really have been offered the job of a lifetime, even if that is not your OOC objective with your character.  And b) When you setup requirements like having to spend a year in another clan, harsh screening, and so on, you effectively lower your player base to zero in almost every scenario.  If I make a character concept and think, "Hey, I want her in the Oash Elite", I'm not going to puts around in some other clan for a year+ and possibly die between now and then just to even enter the original clan of my desire.

I think what we're seeing here are the results of too many clans.  Though many of you will disagree, I think 5 nobles houses scattered between Allanak and Tuluk are far too many to support our player base, if you take into account all the other existing clans.  People want choices, however, so closing any of those clans may invariably upset a lot of the player base.  What's to be done then?  I guess putting up with nobles who really push recruiting -- even if it sometimes bends reality -- is the lesser of those evils.

[Callisto]

... you could even then see the rise of schools similar to the Byn...

The Byn isn't a school.

As far as I know the three hundred coins is enough to cover the cost of your an aba and training gear, the training, food and shelter is the company investing in future recruits in order to maintain a solid base of fighting men and women.

Just wanted to point that out.

[mansa]

Clans that aren't permemeent employeeement:

Merchant House Kadius.
Merchant House Salarr.
Byn.
Atrium.

And sometimes Kurac.

Remember, you can always negoatiate your contract with people, just like in real life.
I'm tired.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Witchman has brought up a good point. There are too many clans for folks not to force recruit. Here is my view on this.

People want choices. That is very good. Have a poll (in fact, I am going to have one now) regarding which 2 noble houses folks want to see open in Allanak. There are already only two in the north, so there is no problem there.

So, let us say this. We have 3 noble houses in the south and 2 noble houses in the north. We have four merchant houses, the two desert elf clans and the two gypsy/tribal human clans. We also have the militias and Templarete in either city-state. With the Byn and the Guild, we have 2 more Immortal supported clans.

So, we have 3+2+4+2+2+2+2+2=19 clans! Add to this organizations like the Atrium, the various player-run clans, and the lone rangers and hunter folks, or the the tavern-sitters and so forth. Suddenly we have an idea of why the player-base is so diluted.

How about this?

We will have 2 noble houses in the south and 2 in the north. We will have 3 merchant houses, taking out Nenyuk. We will have 1 Immortal supported elven clan and 1 Immortal supported human clan. We will keep the militias and the Templaretes. We will also keep the Byn, but the Guild will disappear or be player run. I would suggest that at one point, perhaps when the player who runs the Atrium retires or decides to move on, that that clan also be picked up by the Immortals.

So, per my suggestions and adjustments, we will have 2+2+3+1+1+2+2+2. We have now cut the total number of Immortal run clans to 15. Ok, and we still have the various and numerous player organizations and loners.

Now, what is to stop a dirth in the player allotments? Ah hah. A solution! Limit each noble/merchant/milita clan to 10 active combat oriented PCs, 5 active servant/merchant PCs, and 2 noble/family member PCs. Limit each tribe to 7 PCs, period. The Byn, being a mercenary unit, would only take on folks who are not promised to another clan, or folks who are virtual tribals. Suddenly, jobs are a lot more precious.

You may note that I said active when pertaining to fighter and servant roles in the noble/merchant houses. Here is why. Perhaps, as I did a number of times with a long-lived character, a player goes on a Sabbatical, for whatever reason. The House hires another PC to fill in the ranks while that player is not active. When that play comes back, the PC who just had a job is released. This creates 'mercenaries', and this creates hope, and reason to kill for work, etc.

With jobs limited, suddenly you will lose the recruit mentality, and you will have a much harsher world, where a person actually has to struggle because he or she is not accepted by any House.

I also think that you will see the player base centralize more between the two city-states in regards to House population.

I realize that I took out the Nenyuk house, one of the most essential Houses in regards to housing and other matters. Let me make an adjustment. There would be two PCs for that House, and the role would be ranging, for they would have to do a good amount of travel to keep up with the Housing demands.

****************************************

Now, which Noble House would you choose to close in Allanak, if the descision were put to you?

A. Tor

B. Oash

C. Borsail

[marilla]

The problem with the solution with

Limit each noble/merchant/milita clan to 10 active combat oriented PCs, 5 active servant/merchant PCs, and 2 noble/family member PCs.

is the same as with Leadership positions when people go away.

You tell the unhappy employee: "I don't understand what you mean. You say you are lonely, yet we have ten people in your unit. I know I have not seen any of them in two months, but surely you see them daily."

or

You tell the hopeful recruit: "I really would like to hire you, but there is no room in the ranks. Perhaps next month..."

think That they are busy doing something and never seen, is irrelevant. Unfortunately.

People do simply stop logging on, sometimes the PCs go away too and the recruiters won't know that.

Of course, the keyword may be 'active', but how much constitutes to 'active'? And who would keep track of everyone's activity level?

[mansa]

Now, which Noble House would you choose to close in Allanak, if the descision were put to you?

A. Tor

B. Oash

C. Borsail

I would cry if one of those noble houses were closed off.  You can't close down Oash and not have the game affected in some way.  Who's the Borsail noble to politic with, when there's no 'enemy'.   A tor?  Ha!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Of course, the keyword may be 'active', but how much constitutes to 'active'? And who would keep track of everyone's activity level?

I would call active logging on at least 4 times a week, or, averaging at least 15-20 hours of play a week.

Who would keep track of this? The clan Immortal. There should be an IMM command that notes the last time a player logged on. In addition, most players tell others in their GBD clan board when they are going away for a long time. Added to this the ability to e-mail the player and such, and a good clan IMM should be able to be pretty accurate in keeping track of this. Communication regarding these issues between leaders and Immortals help greatly in the PC's knowledge and ability to act correctly.

If any Immortal needs tips, talk to Vendrya.

Yes, I know. A shameless plug. But I swear, Vendrya was the most involved Immortal I have ever met, even while attending school.

Mansa: Actually, you can close any clan and it won't affect the world ICly or OOCly, because the Immortals use Houses which are not open to run plots for many a time. All the PC would be missing is the cool azure and black gear Oash employees get. PCs need to have to fight for jobs, and clans need to be turning folks away, not wandering the streets looking for folks.

[mansa]

Mansa: Actually, you can close any clan and it won't affect the world ICly or OOCly, because the Immortals use Houses which are not open to run plots for many a time. All the PC would be missing is the cool azure and black gear Oash employees get. PCs need to have to fight for jobs, and clans need to be turning folks away, not wandering the streets looking for folks.

Try and run a Borsail noble.   One that doesn't touch the Wyverns, or do combat things.  One that JUST politics.  Who's left to fight, within the city?
Does the conflict just resort to North vs South, and no inner conflict within the city?   Will you ever be scared of a dagger in your back, from your own personal guards being paid off by an Oashi?  No, because you wo'nt hire that Northern Accented assassin.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A cap of seventeen on each clan, if that's indeed what you're saying, seems useless.  Clans almost never even come close to that amount of people.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A cap of seventeen on each clan, if that's indeed what you're saying, seems useless.  Clans almost never even come close to that amount of people.

That may be a very good point. Keep in mind that we are killing two desert clans and one noble clan though. But still, maybe that is a good point.

In that case, let us reduce numbers. 8 combat oriented PCs, 3 non-combat oriented, and 2 nobles. That makes the number 13, 5 less.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

T7DV wrote:

I would call active logging on at least 4 times a week, or, averaging at least 15-20 hours of play a week.

You're kidding... Right? Even during the summer, when I have nothing better to do than sit on my ass an play Armageddon, and I'd be -lucky- to hit 12 hours in a week. I had a PC that I played with for 2 RL years, and he only hit 20 days before he died.

I mean, sweet Tek man, people have better things to do. I thought a gangsta like yourself would have a lot of caps to bust, cutting down on your Armageddon time... Do you mean to tell me you play Armageddon 4+ hours every day? If that's the expectation for a character in a clan, then don't be suprised to see a lot of solo hunters or crafters popping up. Krath!

[witchman]

Bah, the solution is to utterly wipe one of the cities off the face of the known world.

My vote is for wasting Tuluk again and hopefull the Highlord will do it right this time.  :-)

I would love to see the area revert to the type of lifestyle before Muk came to power, a collection of loosely organized barbarian tribes.

But, that's just me.

The plus is that it consolidates city-orientated folk, making the city actually team with people, the downside is loosing the tremendous amount of work the staff and players have put in to make Tuluk what it is (I mean, besides the VERY LONG streets)  :-)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...I'd be -lucky- to hit 12 hours in a week. I had a PC that I played with for 2 RL years, and he only hit 20 days before he died.

Hrmph. I am pretty sure that most folks get 12 hours a week. Go to work, play 2 hours 5 days a week, total. Go to school, etc... Every single Armageddon player I know hits 15 hours a week EASY.

And I do not bust caps anymore. I am a nerd like you all now...just not as nerdy.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

The real solution is to push recruiting in RL!  We need more players so bad...

But, if I'd have to pick, there are two clans that seem redundant to me: Salarr and Kadius.  They're different as far as personality, of course, but as far as what people actually do in them, they seem the same.  I don't believe they're ever in conflict with each other (although they easily could be as far as I know), so we wouldn't be removing a source of conflict.  Basically, they're just two separate pools of merchants, hunters, and crafters that could be merged.

I wouldn't want to do this, but it's an option.  But then you think...would it really even help anything, merging two clans like that?  You'd just get one big clan that still drains away the same numbers of people from the other clans.  I think you'd have to remove more than one to make a difference, but all the other options for removal are too painful to consider, imo.

We're just screwed until we increase our numbers oocly.  I mean, we're trying to populate two entire -cities- on 50 people active at any one time.  NPC's can only do so much--this is basically an impossible job.

[Rindan]

I strongly disagree with clan caps.  Clans get large populations when strong leaders arise.  Clans get low populations when weak leaders are in charge.  I would rather see the clans with strong and active leaders draw the playerbase to them then artificially cut these people off at the knees for a weak leader who couldn't fill up his clan if he tried.  I know for instance that Kurac for a time had a population to rival the Byn.  They had it that high because they had at least three very skilled leaders and people wanted to join up.  I would rather see this, then have these three skilled leaders have their talents go to waste.

Personally, I think the entire focus of the game is being shifted in the wrong direction.  Closing down the Guild?  If it isn't already inactive that is about the last thing I would close down.  Armageddon is a world for the harsh and the gritty.  Yet, despite the fact that this a world about desperation the clans that get the most support are the ones where that is the least important aspect to their existence.  I would rather The Guild then a noble house.  I would rather see militia and Templars then Tor.  I would rather see Kurac then Kadius.

I am not saying forget nobility and that entire aristocracy altogether.  They do play an important and vital role.  I just think that it should be remembered what the game is about.  The game is about a brutal desert environment with little water and little food.  This defines the game and this is what drives the society to be the way it is.  I think you loose a lot of this when everyone is a noble servant, noble guard, or in some way a clean cut support role for nobility.  These are the few people who never need to think about where their next cup of water is going to come from.  I would much prefer to see more commoner oriented clans being open up over trying to bolster noble houses. I would rather see the dark and harsh underworld be explored in greater detail then the overriding politics.

[spawnloser]

I'll have to disagree with you a bit, Rindan...with the way the population of the mud swings around, a region will lose some of it's 'good-to-employ' characters...at which point, the picky don't hire all the rest of the undesireables like someone else might.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I hate agreeing with Rindan, dammit.

But yes, I guess that is actually a point.

My point is less clans, more clamour for jobs. The more clamour for jobs, the harsher the world. That is why I brought up a cap.

[crymerci]

Sorry, I have to disagree with just about everyone here. :!:

If you, OOCly, do not want to have your character hired on by a noble house, then you need to instill something in their background or being which makes them unsuitable, and trust me, anyone who's ever gone through an interview with a noble knows that there are things you can say or do or have in your history that will work.

Because, the IC reality is, if nearly any commoner was offered the opportunity your character got offered, they would JUMP at it and grovel in gratitude. I almost never see this portrayed accurately. You say that it is not IC for nobles to have to recruit, but IMNSHO it's much poorer roleplay to try to refuse employment with a noble house.

[My 2 sids]

Alright, two things.  

One, with regards to logging on, maybe 12 hours is asking a lot... but it takes almost no time to fire off an email.  I think even if people who don't log on could just email the clan Imm or –something- where players would know the difference between RL getting in the way, or RL deciding to quit playing the game or IC death.  Waiting three or four RL WEEKS to get a simple reply from someone is just too frustrating.

Two, I personally think clan caps would be great.  With a very limited player base... and wanting to keep so many rooms/cities limiting the number of people with in each clan will help to keep up competition and role-play as opposed to solo play after suddenly finding yourself the sole member of a clan.  I know people have said "the strongest clan recruit the most"... but actually that is not a valid point.  Statistically this argument is flawed... a basic example would be the American "college Greek" system.  Greek societies have found that placing caps on all Greek membership actually helps numbers and maintains a healthy competition with all members.  Follow the logic...  If one clan holds the stronger players other stronger players flock to that one clan... eventually, with all strong players in one clan, the separation between one clan and another grows so large... we actually are only left with one clan instead of two.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

About Noble Houses and jobs:

I don't think it's true that people would always grovel for the opportunity to join a Noble house.  These jobs are -for life- first of all.  I think that in itself would be enough to turn a lot of people away.  Secondly, there's way too much responsibilty involved for the average joe--if you do something wrong, you could get seriously punished, or even killed.  I'd imagine working for a noble would be very stressful.  Most commoners would think nobles to be a better breed of human, for sure, but that doesn't mean that they'd want anything to do with them.

For the middle (if this exists) and upper classes, yes, they'd love to have an opportunity to climb the social ladder and join a noble house.  But, the lower classes really don't believe this to be a possibility, and would probably take a few sids every now and then and be left alone rather than deal with the stress of working in a noble house.

[Dan]

I wish I could find such job security as the promis of food, water, bedding and storage for life. This would be a reason why you would -want- to join a noble house, not why you wouldn't want to. We should all be so lucky, even in real life. Im with the idea that we should give many more benefits to those joining noble houses as guards and aides. People seek out the nobles for work instead of the other way around. It should be a respected position that people seek out.

[CindyLou]

I wish I could find such job security as the promis of food, water, bedding and storage for life. This would be a reason why you would -want- to join a noble house, not why you wouldn't want to. We should all be so lucky, even in real life. Im with the idea that we should give many more benefits to those joining noble houses as guards and aides. People seek out the nobles for work instead of the other way around. It should be a respected position that people seek out.

Right. As long as you understand that if your boss has a beef with your mother, and orders you to kill her, then you gotta do it or risk being tossed out into the desert buck naked with no water. Or worse.

And as long as you understand that if you play it right, you can make enough coins to own your own damned house instead of living on a cot with a hundred other smelly sweaty people, but choose instead the "luxury" of free food and water that you can get on your own if you made the effort.

And as long as you realize that if you play a guard character for a house, chances are you will never have to do any actual guarding, but instead most of your time will be spent standing at a table watching people come in and out, basically solo-emoting - or if you're really lucky, being able to eavesdrop on the conversations and become a spy, which wasn't what you thought you were signing up for, but hey - free food and a cot in the barracks..

This isn't a beef. I LOVED being in House Oash. Had a blast, enjoyed every minute of it, no regrets. I'm just playing devil's advocate here to point out that free food/water/clothing/eq means nothing in a world where all of that can be stripped from you if you cross your eyes by mistake.

[Barzalene]

Take the job, don't take the job. Whatever. Yeah, people shouldn't ruin your pc's life if you say no politely or make yourself unattractive in some way. On the other hand, recruiters are supposed to recruit. Why shouldn't they enjoy it?

[Anonymous]

I wish I could find such job security as the promis of food, water, bedding and storage for life. This would be a reason why you would -want- to join a noble house, not why you wouldn't want to. We should all be so lucky, even in real life. Im with the idea that we should give many more benefits to those joining noble houses as guards and aides. People seek out the nobles for work instead of the other way around. It should be a respected position that people seek out.

Right. As long as you understand that if your boss has a beef with your mother, and orders you to kill her, then you gotta do it or risk being tossed out into the desert buck naked with no water. Or worse.

I don't think this is something that commoners worry about.  I mean, even if you aren't working for a noble, if they order you to kill your Mom, you gotta do it.

And as long as you understand that if you play it right, you can make enough coins to own your own damned house instead of living on a cot with a hundred other smelly sweaty people, but choose instead the "luxury" of free food and water that you can get on your own if you made the effort.

See, but here's the thing-You are doing it without risking your life.  PCs are always considered the cream of the crop of the population of Zalanthas, but who wouldn't take a job with about 1/1000th of the risk of going out and trying to do it on your own?

And as long as you realize that if you play a guard character for a house, chances are you will never have to do any actual guarding, but instead most of your time will be spent standing at a table watching people come in and out, basically solo-emoting - or if you're really lucky, being able to eavesdrop on the conversations and become a spy, which wasn't what you thought you were signing up for, but hey - free food and a cot in the barracks..

Heh, the first two are IC issues, the latter is an OOC issue.  I don't think a privileged house guard would consider it a 'bad thing' to have to work all day at the most happening social venues watching your charge try to get his or her itch scratched.

As a player I'm with you on this one.

This isn't a beef. I LOVED being in House Oash. Had a blast, enjoyed every minute of it, no regrets. I'm just playing devil's advocate here to point out that free food/water/clothing/eq means nothing in a world where all of that can be stripped from you if you cross your eyes by mistake.

I disagree.  I don't think there is any underestimating the value of knowing that you don't have to worry about food and water.  That you can go a whole month without leaving the gates if a terrible sandstorm comes along that makes it impossible to leave the gates because you can't see a thing when you leave.  Especially in the south.

That being said....In the end, I almost never join clans.  I hate it.  Almost without fail my PCs end up getting killed or kicked out of the clan.  I hate structure in the game with a passion and will never try to get into it.  I'm not saying its a bad thing at all, its just not for me.

To get around the issues with why a PC would turn down a job, I try to give them enough uncouth, enough ignorance and enough poor hygiene to turn away a potential recruiter.

When I *have* been 'forced' by my PCs IC desire for a comfortable life into taking a job offer, I try to conduct myself in such a manner as to either get fired or feel that his life is threatened by superiors enough to warrant trying to quit.

The 'for life' terms of service blow.  As a player.

I think PCs would, almost universally, think it was a chance in a lifetime deal.

[Rindan]

The easiest way to get out of being recruited is to play a commoner.  If you dress relatively nice, talk relatively nice, and are clean that makes your special, even if you are still a commoner.  Of course people are going to want to hire you for roles where they need nicely dressed and nicely speaking people.  Simply play the average commoner and you should be able to turn any recruiter away.  Pick a bug out of your hair while they talking to you, ask which one is House Oash when they introduce themselves, and throw in vulgar comment whenever the conversation starts to become too pleasant.  

The hansome man says at your table in Sirihish,
 "So, we are looking for fine servants to serve in House Oash, and I think you could be just such a person.  We offer food and water for life, on top of our usual pay."

The grubby commoner says at your table in Sirihish, as he picks a squirming bug out of his hair with a bemused expression
 "Well tha' sounds like a pretty fuckin' nice deal!  Krath, when I was workin' shovelin' kank shit in the stables they only were payin' me 10 'sid and no food or water... not ta bash shovelin' shit, it was good 'sid, but this is really classy and shit!"

The hansome man says at your table in Sirihish, shifts, looking uncomfortable for a moment before continuing,
 "Now you will have to interview with Lord Inbreed, but you will do fine.  Once you pass your interview you will get the proper training you need on politics and such."

The grubby commoner sniffs in deeply then spit a wad of mucus off to the side of the table.

The grubby commoner says at your table in Sirihish, the smell of his rank breath wafting across the table.
 "Speakin' to a real live noble?  Well have a Mek fuck up the back side!  Shit!  Wow!  Fuckin' amazin'.  Ya know, I never though tha' I would get ta speak to a real fuckin' noble.  I mean... shit, a fuckin' noble talkin' to me!"

The grubby commoner says at your table in Sirihish, shaking his head looking completely astonished.
 "I mean shit, I once talked ta this merchant guy who said he used ta hang out in the Traders, an' that was pretty fuckin' heavy, but a real live kank fuckin' noble?  Ha!  My ol' whore of a mother is goin' to piss herself when she finds out!  She said I ain't ever goin' to do anythin' better then shovel kank shit the res' of my days, but by the fuckin' Dragon, I am goin' to talk to a noble!"

The hansome man says at your table in Sirihish, as he suddenly taps his temple,
 "Well!  I'll be!  It is Lord Inbreed himself through the Way.  It seems the position was just filled by someone else!  I am terribly sorry.  If it opens up again I will be sure to tell you though.

The hansome man gets to his feet quickly and hurries away from the grubby commoner.

[CindyLou]

Ya know Rindan, I actually tried something like that once. Not the nose picking of spit-wadding part, but the "genuinely common" commoner type. Ended up working for a noble anyway, go figure. He thought it was refreshing to have someone who didn't try to lie - or lay - their way into fame and fortune or pretend they were something they weren't just to impress someone else. He liked the brutal honesty and the sincerety he couldn't get from his other employees.

And wouldn't you know - that's what got my PC killed.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Here's my opinions (like anyone asked, right? Heh)

A noble running around after random commoners, begging them or even coercing them to join their organization is inconsiderate to other players, and doesn't make a helluva lot of sense ICly.

A non-noble recruiter working for a noble running around and harassing commoners makes perfect sense ICly, and is a lot more considerate to players.

Recruiters shouldn't pick up people that don't make sense IC. That means don't pick the flea-ridden commoner infected with crotch rot for your noble advisor. That means the 'pearly-eyed little girl' probably wouldn't be an ideal guard. That means the 'Rinth rat missing his tongue should be stabbed, not hired. However, the Byn trained half-giant who has been working for Salaar for the past three years would be ideal, and would likely be harrassed by recruiters left and right.

Players (espicially those of us who can't hit 12 hours a week) should have the option of playing a solo character, and not getting scooped (or at least permanetly scooped) into a clan. If a recruiter is being persistant, you should mail the clan IMM, and I'm sure they'll politely ask the recruiter's player to bugger off.

Your average commoner would, ICly, shit himself at the offer of a noble guard position, but others probably would not, and would easily be able to decline the offer without batting an eye. Your average half-elf, for instance, would probably be terrifed at the thought of a 'for life' contract, and would likely not accept it unless they didn't think it through.

On the topic of 'for life' contracts, they suck. Mightily. I'd like to see a few clans drop that doctorine, or at the very least, be more open to hiring skilled mercenary folk for two year, five year, or ten year contracts. Then maybe try to convince them to stay for life. But really, it feels like too many clans have life long commitment things. But whatever.

[Anonymous]

the flea-ridden commoner infected with crotch rot

You should seriously submit that NPC if you dont' make a PC with that sdesc.  Comedy.  Gold.

[My 2 sids]

Ya know Rindan, I actually tried something like that once. Not the nose picking of spit-wadding part, but the "genuinely common" commoner type. Ended up working for a noble anyway, go figure. He thought it was refreshing to have someone who didn't try to lie - or lay - their way into fame and fortune or pretend they were something they weren't just to impress someone else. He liked the brutal honesty and the sincerety he couldn't get from his other employees.

And wouldn't you know - that's what got my PC killed.

This is just one more example of how people don't like common commoners.  I too made a common commoner, the pc kept being insulted and confused for a rinther (had no accent!) like the PC was somehow "not common" or "too bad to be a commoner"!  She too was hunted down for the very fact she was common.  Out of millions of "commoners" she was somehow singled out and run down because she was a disposible commoner?  What kind of RP is that?  


The game is supposed to be FILLED with "commoners", but "common" type PCs are somehow not welcome in game.  Am I correct in saying  it is still ok to be common, right??  My fear is that if people stop making "commoners" all together the game is going to be left with nothing but nobility, commoners who -think- they are nobility, and thieves/killers.  Look at the Byn and non-human races and magickers... something is lost when we group all these sub-classes into one big disposible/terrible group.

[flurry]

I think it depends - it seems like some people have the idea that a "common commoner" would be a PC that, contrary to the docs, is willfully rude to nobles or templars.    

(Not that I'm saying people shouldn't play that way - but it wouldn't be common according to the docs)

But PCs that are dirt poor and unkempt and smelly - yay for them.   The world could use more.  I don't see why they would be hunted down, unless it were for some independent reason (e.g. stealing, pissing off the wrong people).

[zanthalandreams]

Flurry's post made me think..........

There is one thing that a Common Commoner wouldn't have, but that you see way too much in any common PC.

Pride.  

It stings when you have to suck it up because some PC really IS better than you.   There is too much liberated empowerment in commoners.   Yeah, it isn't fun to simper and grovel . . and games should be fun, right?  

The common commoner would not only hawk snot and act like they are the worthless boil on the ass of society, they would believe it.   They wouldn't get all offended.  Offended?  Is that even a concept they would understand?  Snubbed? Nah.

I can see a commoner turning down an intrusive job offer by just refusing to accept that they are worth such a position.   You got tha wrong halfbreed, mistah lord sah, I's no good at standing guard.

[CindyLou]

Offended by another commoner thinking they were superior maybe. But not by a noble, or templar. And not openly, at least, by a commoner in a high ranking position, such as a merchant house agent/advisor type person.

[Carnage]

I agree, and disagree.

I think that the majority of noble guards (VNPC-wise) were those dirty commoners who were cleaned up and polished. You don't just pop out as knowing everything on how to treat the nobility and exactly what to say. I'd like to see more time spent on 'polishing' guards than just mindless sparring.

[My 2 sids]

Exactly!  But instead those "commoners" who try to add polish to become better... are usually killed off for being a commoner and trying to fit in with the upper crust.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

zalanthandreams wrote:

Yeah, it isn't fun to simper and grovel . .

Yes it is. Try it some time. You might be suprised.

[Rindan]

I think people are confusing unrefined and rude.  The example I gave was of someone who is unrefined, but not rude.  He is certainly vulgar and disgusting, but none of that vulgarity is directed towards the noble.  He doesn't realize that picking at his bugs during a conversation is rude, that splicing a vulgar word into every sentence is bad, or that you can't do things like spit a wad of snot onto the ground during polite conversation.  If a Templar says jump, you still jump.  If nobility or templerate talk to you, you still bow.  A commoner has been taught all of these things.  They have not been taught how to talk politely.  They don't know what sort of conversation is off limits.  They are crude and disgusting, but not insulting or willful.  They know to bend a back and to say nothing disrespectful towards nobility.

On the noble's end, nobility should not act surprised when a commoner is filthy and disgusting around them.  Hell, that is the difference between nobility and a commoner.  Nobility should expect commoners to be the disgusting, crude, and unrefined people that they are.  If you are going to kill a commoner because he was picking his bugs while talking to you or was using less then polite language, then your noble is and idiot who is going to whack commoners left and right whenever they are in public around them.  It is absolutely silly to the point of being ridiculous for a noble to kill a commoner for not acting like a noble.  So long as they do the things they are taught to do, namely bow, say nothing of disrespect directed towards a House or Noble/Templar, and are sure to use either Lord/Lady Templar or Lord/Lady, then the commoner is doing nothing wrong.  A simple commoner can't be expected to do better without proper education, and most commoners never get that.

[Summer]

I'd like to see more mercenary contracts too. I've only seen it happen once, admittedly I haven't played for very long.

[John]

it isn't fun to simper and grovel . .

I disagree, the simpering and grovelling is what keeps me coming back. You don't get simpering or grovelling like this anywhere else

[creeper386]

I agree absolutely with Rindan. In fact I think I ramble about that very thing that you can't be a common commoner really at all, about every week.

It's terrible, if your a crude, unrefined person... People take every thing you say as offensive, and it's rediculous. Now a Noble Elite Guard might be offended when a common commoner talks, but he should be USED to it. It would be a norm. He wouldn't run around saying this person went out of the way to insult me and my house. It's stupid.

And it really is a problem. I personally can't play a fairly large section of what I'd like to play with the problem.

In the north it's even worse though. Can't even be slightly normal without everyone wanting to kill you.

[zanthalandreams]

John, Monkeyman, read the rest of my post.   Take the italic text in the whole context of the theme.  Ask yourself, is the point of Zan's post that groveling is good?  Why yes it is.  Does that mean Zan must think that simpering and groveling is good and fun?   Why yes it do.   Does this mean I disagree with Zan?  Why I be, no it don't.  


re: Rindan

I'm with you on this, but it has been rare for me to see a really gritty PC who could present crudeness and vulgarity without rudeness.  It is kind of the same way that people in power confuse being powerful with being an asshole.  The two don't have to go together.

[X-D]

Bah, shut em all down and open 2 closed noble houses, time for change anyway in old stuffy allanak.

[Hoodwink]

Bah, shut em all down and open 2 closed noble houses, time for change anyway in old stuffy allanak.

I wholeheartedly agree.  I think it makes more sense for lesser nobles to be open to players since they are closer to commoners, and let the upper nobles become NPCs.  Why not try something new anyway?  When was the last time something drastic happened in Arm?  The liberation of Tuluk... which was how long ago?  Merge Salarr and Kadius, I dunno.  Something.  It'd just be nice to see some big major turning point or event which drastically changes available roles/options for we players.

Especially in Allanak, where everything has been the way it has for probably thousands and thousands of years.  Wouldn't it be neat if there was a constant flux?  Or even an occasional one!  Of not even world-shattering events either, just IC events like Oash and Borsail constantly teetering on who is the uppermost house.  One week it's Oash, the next it's Borsail.

[crymerci]

In the north it's even worse though. Can't even be slightly normal without everyone wanting to kill you.

Well, as long as you're not trying to be average in clearly above-average surroundings.  Like the Sanc, for example, which is like the Traders except even nicer.  Other than that, I say make the pansies squirm.