Feedback Poll - Which subguild do you hate?

[Case]

Languages would be worth more if they couldn't be learned at random

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm always in the mood for additional subguilds. Like four new commoner subguilds for in-city survival, and four more for half-crafting, half-hunting/grebbing people. A new subguild of some sort with forage food in it would be wonderful, especially if it had knifemaking or some such. Forage food is so limited. I don't think it should be common, but your options for getting it are narrow.

What I want to see is the guy who buys a bone, makes a sword out of it, tracks a chalton in the morning through a blustering sandstorm, kills it and ends up being a magicker three days later.

Stuff like that.

[Dalmeth]

I think most of the subguilds should be scrapped or totally revamped.

A lot of the subguild skills are useless because of their low cap levels.  Skills like hide, sneak, steal, scan, climb, sap, bandage, skinning, and tanning are all too costly and too dangerous to rely on at low levels.  So, they're fine to add a little bit of color to your character, but you pick them at the cost of not picking another subguild.

Some subguild skills are fun, but so completely situational as to be nearly useless.  I'm looking at you, linguist and bard.  Language is a fun element of this game, but it's very, very underused.

Combat skills like kick, sap, and shield use (and the combat ESGs) are also pretty bad because unless your character has other combat skills, then those things are just going to get your character hurt.  That's not TOO bad, but most of the subguilds with combat skills offer redundant choices for combat characters.  A warrior takes thug for sap, but the subdue, kick and flee are wasted.  A ranger could gain three skills by picking thug, but a ranger/assassin/burglar/pickpocket has no reason EVER to pick acrobat... they should always pick thug.

The only really useful subguild skills are: direction sense, forage food, and crafting skills.  The first two are pretty universal.  Crafting skills... let's just say that some let you churn obsidian from thin air, while others require a lot of effort to be useful.  The gap is so wide that it's absurd.

I've suggested it before, but I really wish we could just go to a deeper class system, and ditch all of the subguild/ESG nonsense.

I have to disagree slightly with this on one point.  I don't see any priority in placing useful skills in subguilds, I just want to see skills that work.  There are a lot of subguilds that either need additional skills to be useful, or the skills are capped too low to ever be reliable.

I have no problems with the flavor subguilds, those can stay.

[In Dreams]

General crafter and tinker seemed kind of pointless to me, and honestly, I've met like one PC ever who could reliably bandage without potentially murdering their target.

I'm sorry, but bandaging something is just not that hard or dangerous. You shouldn't hurt someone so much or so often on failures.

So, based on that, physician. I would never, ever pick physician, and if one was near me with a bandage at hand I'd immediately flee the vicinity before they could attempt to strangle me to death by failing their attempt and somehow wrapping it too tight around my neck and EEEEEEEEEAAARGNOOOOO... gack...

The body of In Dreams lies here, because bandage failed again.

Also, languages. Languages would be a much bigger deal if every PC didn't have the Way anyway.

[BadSkeelz]

Was that PC a ranger? Were they in the byn at any point?

Access to sparring + cloth = capped bandaging reasonably quickly.

[Medivh]

I hate all the crafting subguilds, because mastercrafting stuff is so much more interesting. The large piles of coin a couple of these can give you are great, but there are other ways to making money. The actual crafts just aren't good enough compared to NPC store bought stuff to pick crafting subguilds. The new mastercrafting subguilds are another story.

A lot of skills just don't have much "screen time". They're usefulness is very limited, and I would only ever pick them if nothing gave me an alternative. Climb is one of those skills.
A handful of skills will be seeing use nearly every time you log in. Direction sense is a key one, with the types I'm playing.

So I never pick most subguilds. The skills most give you have alternatives, or I just don't use the skills enough.
I play a ton of warriors, and I pick the same subguilds everytime. Grebber is the number one top slot. Nomad/Guide are about the same to me, just depends on concept. For Celves scavenger is my go to. Hunter for half-elves.

[Adhira]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Rathustra and I are going to be spending some time this weekend working on subguilds and the commentary here has been of great help.  If you have any other thoughts please add them!

Once we get subguilds knocked out I'll be coming back to you with some thoughts on guilds, which I think is going to require a lot more work/discussion and input.

I do want to mention that this isn't a singular process. There may be changes implemented, then we'll seek more feedback and review, and look to see what else needs adjusting.

[nauta]

Hi,

First, I really like how this thread is going, both player-side and staff-side.  The whole 'balance' thing is a tough issue, and it's good to chew on it a bit together.

I voted for linguist, and here's some reasoning:

I love the idea, but I found it was a bit limiting -- you only get a few very common languages.  Granted how the language acquisition code works in Arm, we can all just acquire those languages through time (unlike coded skills).  Moreover, as someone else suggested above, granted that we can just use the Way to overcome language barriers, there's not much room for playing a 'translator' PC.

Suggestions:

o Perhaps toss on a few more languages, e.g., bendune, cavillish, and of course kentu .[1]

o Speaking out of ignorance of the code (i.e., maybe this is the case already), but perhaps make it easier for linguists to pick up new languages / accents.

o Give linguists the 'listen' skill!

Only barely related:

As someone that loves the lore and history of Armageddon, what if there were a subguild associated with that?  I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but here's a sketch of the idea.  You wouldn't have very many hard skills, but you'd be able to tap into some of the lore or history, I guess by asking staff, or perhaps you'd get access to a few of the books that have been written (random, say up to three a RL month or something).  (Of course, you wouldn't have the capacity to read those books, but you'd have acquired the knowledge that is contained in them via scholarship, whatever that means in Zalanthas, or via folk tales.   Oooo, you could also 'mastercraft' a book to be added to the 'lore' catalogue.  That'd be neat.  Moar Loar.)  My favourite times in Arm have really been when other PCs have explained the history and lore of an object or area, and I'd love to see more of that.  


[1] I'm only half joking on kentu.  Set aside that I've had a PC try to learn it IG, it'd be kind of cool to have a 'new' (or 'old') language floating around that linguists spread.  For instance, a linguist could start with the gamut of regular languages and one 'weird' language, e.g., kentu.  They could then teach it to PCs, and other PCs would pick it up, and suddenly we'd have, through time, a few PCs out there speaking this really strange new language.  It doesn't have to be kentu, it could just be some obscure desert language.  I'd be curious how long the language survives inside the game.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

An extended subguild with master kentu and a little bit of elvish would be pretty neat. Also add a regular subguild with journeyman kentu. I think it would be realistic of there were more subguilds with varying levels of fluency in sirihish, elvish and dwarvish.

[Delirium]

Do the extended subguilds count?

Because from reading through the descriptions on the website, and having played an actual sorcerer, the sorcerer subguilds seem really, really, really.... lacking.

Like really. They sorta went from one extreme to the bottom of the other.

But, I think I saw somewhere that it is being worked on already - if so, great! I think they need it.

One of the absolute best things about playing a sorcerer, that I really enjoyed, was the creative approach you could take to problem-solving. The way you could combine various skills and magical abilities together to create a variety of scenarios and solutions to whatever challenge came up was attractive to me. The subguilds do not seem to offer remotely that level of flexibility. Note that flexibility doesn't mean power - there's still a lot of steps you'd need to take, and some clever creativity you'd need to be capable of.

[LauraMars]

While I agree that it would be nice if linguists got more than two languages...why kentu? Why not give them the language of a race that's actually in the game as npcs and can be spoken to during many violent physical encounters?

MY VOTE IS HERSHRAK

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Another merc subguild with apprentice heshrak, guard, ride, and direction sense?

[BadSkeelz]

While I agree that it would be nice if linguists got more than two languages...why kentu? Why not give them the language of a race that's actually in the game as npcs and can be spoken to during many violent physical encounters?

MY VOTE IS HERSHRAK

Seconded. Why would anyone outside of Sath scribes know kentu?

[Jihelu]

Give me literacy and starting Tatlum so I can be a library raider fam.


Nah jk give northern linguists Anyar and southern ones Heshrak or Bendune.

[RogueGunslinger]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Rathustra and I are going to be spending some time this weekend working on subguilds and the commentary here has been of great help.  If you have any other thoughts please add them!

Once we get subguilds knocked out I'll be coming back to you with some thoughts on guilds, which I think is going to require a lot more work/discussion and input.

I do want to mention that this isn't a singular process. There may be changes implemented, then we'll seek more feedback and review, and look to see what else needs adjusting.

Yessssssssss, I can't wait for main-guild discussions. Coming to a consensus on the stealth classes is going to be a tough one. We're probably just talking re-arrangement though, and I think some guilds could use entirely new skills.

[Dresan]

Ohh! I really look forward to this, especially if it means getting sub-guild access to some skills we've never seen before, like hide and maybe lower level parry.

I would personally would love to see sub-guilds be made more useful no matter who you take them with, for example:

Rebel:
Not comforming to rules of society, rebels are skilled at avoiding detection and moving both in city and out. Whether they have a cause is of no importance to the populace, thus they often find themselves at odds with people or groups, because of this they are good at defending themselves with a shield.

(advanced) Shield use, both city and wilderness sneak/hide (mid-journeyman) and direction sense(journeyman).

Yeah I know it might be a little strong (okay pretty damn strong), but its only because it would be useful to almost any class that takes it. From warriors to rogues to mages would benefit from it, even rangers would get something out of it.  Especially if they ever make sneak/hide fail less and require scan to actually see even at low levels.

[Dalmeth]

Reading this now, I tend to think it might be a better system to have people choose multiple, overlapping subguilds rather than  just one, specific subguild.  Think of a subguild tree system where selecting armor mender branches into armorcrafter, but one can still select spearman to get a bonus to piercing and the spearmaking skill.

Also, might I suggest that players be allowed to spend 1 cgp two months after a character's creation to bump skills below advanced?  Seems fair enough to me.

[CodeMaster]

Not to get too far off topic, but I liked nauta's idea about a lore subguild.

As someone that loves the lore and history of Armageddon, what if there were a subguild associated with that?  I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but here's a sketch of the idea.  You wouldn't have very many hard skills, but you'd be able to tap into some of the lore or history, I guess by asking staff, or perhaps you'd get access to a few of the books that have been written (random, say up to three a RL month or something).

What about if every IG game year a new piece of lore was added to your bios?

Code Select Expand


> bio
1. 2015/09/01 Initial background
2. 2015/10/01 Overheard at a Storytellers' Circle: the Dragon's Library


It would require some code to check what lore (and what variations of it) were in your bio already.  But I think some of our game's creative writers (including players) could be asked to write in some very cool, open-ended bits of lore.

The best lore is going to be the stuff that hints at something in-game, albeit in vague terms.

[Adhira]

Rath and I are picturing a House Servant that is pretty good and staying unnoticed... they manage to hide and listen in to all kinds of conversations about the Estate...

[whitt]

Rath and I are picturing a House Servant that is pretty good and staying unnoticed... they manage to hide and listen in to all kinds of conversations about the Estate...

Sounds more like a Snoop, because I could see this being applied all over the place, also being a de facto pick for every single cElf that doesn't pick up these skills in their primary guild.

[Adhira]

Is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

[Rathustra]

Rath and I are picturing a House Servant that is pretty good and staying unnoticed... they manage to hide and listen in to all kinds of conversations about the Estate...

Sounds more like a Snoop, because I could see this being applied all over the place, also being a de facto pick for every single cElf that doesn't pick up these skills in their primary guild.

[Dresan]

I kinda like the house servant idea. Since cooking and making flower memento crafting seemed kinda weak, though to be honest I've never tried it or...seen it at all in all the years I've played so I don't even know if there a market for that. I think pilot should just remain a hidden skill for anyone who has access to wagons to learn. Listen, sneak, hide are great skills...and it would be awesome if cooking started journeyman already and went into mid advanced.

Just trying to think of the guilds who would most benefit from this:

Rangers: This would be a solid sub-guild choice, but what isn't a great choice on rangers
Warriors: it would be great on them, particularly on elven and rinthi warrior but no direction sense and ride is pretty brutal other on most warriors, in my opinion at least especially with the current events of the game(though I have a little gut feeling might be addressed at some point).  
Merchants: Wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Mages: Good choice for one that never want to leave the city, otherwise a tough choice.
Sneak classes: Would benefit less though there is one exception

I guess how good it is comes down to the level of sneak and hide. I feel that currently sneak and hide are not really worth relying on unless you have it at advanced or mastered, and not because of scan or listen either, but because it still fails quite a bit. This is going a bit beyond this thread if sneak and hide didn't fail at all at low levels, and even apprentice level sneak/hide was good enough to sneak around people without scan/listen (or perhaps really high wisdom) then it would be an awesome sub-guild. Not to mention add to the feeling that characters can be useful from the start.

Overall though, it would be a solid sub-guild without it actually being overpowered. It might benefit from a slightly more interesting crafting skill added to it but otherwise it looks pretty solid.  

[whitt]

Touche' sir.  Touche'.

[whitt]

Is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

I love the idea.  Should have been more clear that a general name like "Snoop" (sans the Dog) makes it have a broader application than just being a servant of a Merchant/Noble House.  Kind of like the predecessor to Spy.