Feedback Poll - Which subguild do you hate?

[Adhira]

What I'm hearing so far is that certain subguilds are limited in their application but they contain a couple of key skills that aren't found elsewhere like climb and toolmaking.  Seems like adding these skills to different subguilds might help here.  Are there any other skills which are limited in availability that people strongly feel should be included in one (or more) subguilds?

[Delirium]

Mostly climb, for me. I'd go so far as to say climb should be like cooking. Everyone should get it with a low cap that can be raised by guild or subguild choice.

More access to the search skill would be cool, though it seems to be a very underutilized skill. I think only one guild even has access to it.

[Lizzie]

I feel that all subguilds should have at least one crafting skill, capped low (as in - novice or apprentice) if it's not an actual crafting subguild. This, in addition to cooking. In this way, no matter which main guild you play, you will have something to "do" during downtime or when you're just flat-out in the mood to spam-craft something (admit it - everyone enjoys mindless spam-crafting at least once every so often). Toolmaking, featherworking, dyeing, claywork, anything that gives everyone a shot at making any of half a dozen things of little "NPC merchant" value but that PCs might occasionally have use for.

[Marauder Moe]

What I'm hearing so far is that certain subguilds are limited in their application but they contain a couple of key skills that aren't found elsewhere like climb and toolmaking.  Seems like adding these skills to different subguilds might help here.  Are there any other skills which are limited in availability that people strongly feel should be included in one (or more) subguilds?

Listen, Search, and Pilot, maybe.

[Desertman]

Tool Making being thrown under General Crafter and doing away with Tinker all together would probably make sense.

Do away with Archer and give Bow Making to the Hunter Subguild as something they branch eventually. (Let rangers branch it eventually too for that matter. Archers can't master Archery yet Rangers can but Archers can make bows and rangers can't? Wut?)

Combine Acrobat and Bard into "Entertainer Subguild", or something similar.

Take Knife Making away from the Mercenary Subguild. Replace it with Guard and Rescue. Because in reality...that's what Mercenaries in game use....not Knife Making.

Combine Thief and Con Artist into their own Subguild. (Rogue might cover this already. But make this a less talented version of Rogue. The sub-guild version instead of the extended version, so to speak.)

Take Kick away from Thug and replace it with Bash. Bash seems a lot more "Thugy" than "Kick". When you think Kick do you think Jayne Cobb or Jackie Chan? When you think Bash do you think Jackie Chan or Jayne Cobb? Just makes more sense to me.

Give Hunter and Outdoorsman (or maybe just Outdoorsman) Wilderness Quit.

[KankWhisperer]

We might as well just get rid of subguilds altogether and automate it.

Give everyone a certain amount of CGP.
Say 10 + your 3 you built up + your karma. If you take karma class then it's not available for the subguild of course.

Be able to add skills/abilities for certain costs.

Mercenary: Direction sense 3, enhanced ride 2, knifemaking 4, alcohol resist 1 or however the prices are set.

Prices for indoor/outdoor hide sneak etc would have to be set reasonably.

Also automate skill bumps so people can start playing what they want sooner.

[Dalmeth]

Alot of the flavor subguilds are acceptable because they have skills that don't really harm you if they fail.

However, there are many subguilds where a skill failure equals failure of objective and draws immediate consequence.  Sneak, climb, and all stealth skills in general immediately end play on skill failure.  Some skills are only useful if they function flawlessly, so sneak, steal, palm, slip, peer and climb all have this core dysfunction and shouldn't be considered useful when capped at low levels, only flavorful.  Some other subguilds, such as Thug, are still useful because their skills make them simply better at what players generally do, so they are strictly bonuses.  Direction sense, forage, and pilot are also skills that can soak up extended fails during play so long as the player has some caution.

Hide is one example of a stealth skill that could be useful at low levels, but is strangely absent.

Some other subguilds have skills that simply don't mesh well and cause more work for the player.  Rebel is a good example, as it has spearmaking, but no ability to make the poles it needs for its craft, and I can't even remember if General Crafter has dyemaking.  However, General Crafter's main flaw is that its main skills do not make much money, and are superseded by other objects in the game that are lighter (making them easier to carry) and much cheaper.

Tinker is absolutely abysmal because almost all of its skills require some other skill to make its components.

Archer gets a pass because people can generally forage for branches.

I personally think that some of the more obscure crafting subguilds should get a smattering of crafting skills capped at low levels, just enough to do materials processing. Three or four skills per subguild just doesn't work in some cases.

I think maybe five subguilds could be collapsed into two or three just based on crafting skills alone.  Forester and Stonecrafter could soak up the Tinker skills, and then you could split up basketweaving and dyemaking between them.  The primary caveat here is you would need to break up the standard of three to four skills per subguild just a little.  Many of these skills are just not that useful on their own.

[Inks]

I would like to see skills that simply don't exist anywhere else, such as axemaking or clubmaking, thrown into some subguilds. Axemaking in woodcutter and clubmaking in...scavenger?

[AdamBlue]

Acrobat should take reduced fall damage. Those guys have learned how to fall.

[Inks]

Acrobat should take reduced fall damage. Those guys have learned how to fall.

I would like acrobat to have advanced climb and j/m throw. A basic subguild with throw would be boss.

[Rokal]

Acrobat should take reduced fall damage. Those guys have learned how to fall.

I would like acrobat to have advanced climb and j/m throw. A basic subguild with throw would be boss.

This would def be cool.

[Inks]

One last thing and then I will stop spamming this thread. Please give any guild with spearmaking the ability to make poles. I mean it.

[Harmless]

I agree with almost every point in here except that I find caravan guide to be indispensable for concepts of dune traders born in a city. I loved that PC, and yes, even if it lacks a skill or two that nomads get, it was a really versatile concept for roleplay, whereas being tribal and having tribal-accented sirihish is socially limiting. It gets value as well, for that travelled, city-knowledge RP.

Con artist is crap, and I voted for it; many other main guilds have one skill that overlap with it anyway.

I voted for physician because I feel it exists mainly for bandage and brew, since bandagemaking is only really good for extra coin and handouts. It frustrates me that physicians can't forage for food, which are very useful medicinally... [ic info] Foraging food without any boost to the forage skill itself would feel fair and appropriate.

Rebel < Hunter as caravan guide < Nomad. Give rebel 'throw' at a low skill cap, I say,  since they can make spears and knives, and enjoy "guerilla" combat... it only makes sense. Then again, if you roll up an assassin rebel or warrior rebel you'll be able to throw anyway (so it's not game-breaking), but having it pre-branched as a warrior isn't too shabby and it'd go well with a pickpocket.

[CodeMaster]

Here are what I think are the important categories:

1. Does it give direction sense?
(hunter, rebel, forester, nomad, mercenary, caravan guide)

2. Does it give you ride?
(nomad, mercenary, caravan guide)

3. Does it give you dual city/wilderness sneak/hide?
(hunter, rebel, thief)

4. Does it give some new combat abilities?
(hunter, archer, thug, acrobat, guard)

5. Does it give you some new manipulation abilities?
(hunter, con artist, bard, thief, physician, guard[I'm counting subdue], forester)

6. Does it give you listen?
(bard, servant)

7. Does it give you a character quirk?
(linguist, nomad, caravan guide)

8. Can you make mad cash with it?
(anything that gets good haggle or that can craft... but at the end of the day everyone at least gets forage and cooking).

9. Does it give you climb?
(acrobat, scavenger...?)

The subguilds that appear multiple times above (especially at higher skill levels) are the good ones.

[hopeandsorrow]

I play mostly outdoorsey characters.

I choose tinker
Guard
and Con-artist.



I would state that you'd see a more variety of sub-guilds chosen if climb wasn't such a factor.  I feel everyone should have climb, if even capped low, so you have some ability to get out of the silly hole you found yourself in.
As well make more incline to play other classes.

As well, If stealth wasn't so environment base you wouldn't see so many assassin/hunter ranger/thief combo's.  I'd love too take more crafting sub-guilds. Ranger/rebel was a blast when I played one, but I always feel ham-strung by the fact that stealth works in only one environment. 

I know there serious balance issues to consider with stealth indoor/outdoor, but gosh I'd love not having the dilemma every time I roll up a ranger or city stealth character.

Ideally, I feel it be nice to pick and choose sub-guild skills at a whim, for more variety.
I'd drop steal/sleight of hand for city stealth and a craft skill for a ranger. Or get Sub-due.

Again balance issues, ranger/thief is a pretty dangerous combo as well as assassin/hunter.  I'd hate to see these sub-guilds go but as well I wouldn't mind feeling obligated to choose them and would be more inclined to the variety of the other offerings.

[AdamBlue]

Give acrobat 'ride', because they're very good at keeping their balance.

[FantasyWriter]

Caravan Guide is that high up there?  Really?  It's got 3 solid skills and a language.

Every time I've taken Caravan guide in hopes of piloting a skimmer, because merchants don't have storm navigation or the ability to fend off the nasties that lurk in the sea.

[Dalmeth]

I dunno, Adhira.  What do you think?

[solera]

I would be very happy if thief and rogue got climb to make them perfect 'rinth dwellers.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Like Dalmeth said, low-capped hide would be useful while at the same time making scan actually matter for something other than rat-hunting.

[Jihelu]

Caravan Guide is that high up there?  Really?  It's got 3 solid skills and a language.

Every time I've taken Caravan guide in hopes of piloting a skimmer, because merchants don't have storm navigation or the ability to fend off the nasties that lurk in the sea.

Thats why you hire those ten krathis to fight them off.

[Adhira]

I dunno, Adhira.  What do you think?

Lots of things!!

More seriously there's some good information here, and it's definitely being considered. Right now I'm up to about 5 pages of various notes and re-orgs with the subguilds.

Nothing is decided but I'm thinking that Tinker is definitely going to go the way of the dodo.  The comment on hide being absent is a good one and we should definitely be looking at where that will be most appropriate.

[555]

Guard subguild would be better with low-capped parry, so you didn't need three karma or a special application to unlock parry for the classes that eventually branch it. Linguist should get cavilish and bendune, maybe even heshrak (bards too, for that matter). It would be nice if a subguild got city track. I'd say it'd be nice if thug got hide, but that might be going too far. If cutpurse doesn't get it, though, that I think would be acceptable. Maybe a subguild could get pick-making, like tinker.

[Inks]

If tinker got journeyman pick-making that would make them useful  and wanted.

I approve.

[Old Kank]

I think most of the subguilds should be scrapped or totally revamped.

A lot of the subguild skills are useless because of their low cap levels.  Skills like hide, sneak, steal, scan, climb, sap, bandage, skinning, and tanning are all too costly and too dangerous to rely on at low levels.  So, they're fine to add a little bit of color to your character, but you pick them at the cost of not picking another subguild.

Some subguild skills are fun, but so completely situational as to be nearly useless.  I'm looking at you, linguist and bard.  Language is a fun element of this game, but it's very, very underused.

Combat skills like kick, sap, and shield use (and the combat ESGs) are also pretty bad because unless your character has other combat skills, then those things are just going to get your character hurt.  That's not TOO bad, but most of the subguilds with combat skills offer redundant choices for combat characters.  A warrior takes thug for sap, but the subdue, kick and flee are wasted.  A ranger could gain three skills by picking thug, but a ranger/assassin/burglar/pickpocket has no reason EVER to pick acrobat... they should always pick thug.

The only really useful subguild skills are: direction sense, forage food, and crafting skills.  The first two are pretty universal.  Crafting skills... let's just say that some let you churn obsidian from thin air, while others require a lot of effort to be useful.  The gap is so wide that it's absurd.

I've suggested it before, but I really wish we could just go to a deeper class system, and ditch all of the subguild/ESG nonsense.