What if clans didn't give unlimited free food?

[Armaddict]

I think it might be silly to assume there are only 2 watering holes in the game world.

Was just thinking about this, with mention of removal of watering holes.

Watering holes -do- need to be out in the wilderness.  But they need to not be free water-spots for just any joe-blow who's out hunting.  The only solution I could come up with was...HEY.  MAKE RAIDING GROUPS AND FIGHT FOR WATERING HOLES.

[Clearsighted]

I think it might be silly to assume there are only 2 watering holes in the game world.

And there are still water vendors in the city.


When you can forage food, buy food, easily find water for free, or hunt twenty vultures that respawn before you make it back to the gates, you're not going to get anybody fighting over food and water. It's just not going to happen.

You can confirm it yourself. Go kill a carru on the north road. The next traveler will like as not, not see a carru.

You're being kind of pedantic here. That carru will respawn pretty reliably and with the zone refresh changes, there's an annoyingly good chance that the next traveler will encounter a carru. The rate at which players hunt NPCs does not affect the volume or rate at which they respawn.

All I can say is that I've played in clans, where virtually our only meaningful duty, was occasionally going out and clearing hostile NPCs to make it safer for others to pass through. Mobs do spawn more quickly these days than they used to (Holy chalton, batman) but that service is not entirely lost. It's certainly not in the same realm as the truly abstract fantasy of food procurement.

[HavokBlue]

You can replace Heads of States with something maybe more appropriate (Congressmen? State officials?) and the point remains the same: it's a laughably petty activity for them to be engaging in. You're setting the bar for noble-driven conflict so low we might as well not have nobles. They'd just become an extension of spam-crafting indie merchants getting in to their tiffs. We should be wanting our sponsored roles to have the desire and ability to drive interesting plots that can involve large swathes of the player base, not spending all their time engaging in this kind of menial dickslapping.

staff are bad and exist only to say no to your plots and they all get their jollies killing your PCs just before your plots culminate in something fun

true facts i promise

[BadSkeelz]

The pros and cons of having plots more complicated than "Let's go do this thing this afternoon and call it a day" are for another thread.

[Clearsighted]

You can replace Heads of States with something maybe more appropriate (Congressmen? State officials?) and the point remains the same: it's a laughably petty activity for them to be engaging in. You're setting the bar for noble-driven conflict so low we might as well not have nobles. They'd just become an extension of spam-crafting indie merchants getting in to their tiffs. We should be wanting our sponsored roles to have the desire and ability to drive interesting plots that can involve large swathes of the player base, not spending all their time engaging in this kind of menial dickslapping.

I think it's about right for state officials, honesty. But I get what you're saying. Here's the deal:

1) I'm positive Synth was exaggerating, because realistically, it's unlikely to ever get that way without additional changes happening simultaneously that have nothing to do with free food, that also affect the game's economy.

2) If it did happen once or twice, the idea of a noble flippantly exerting some political influence on behalf of their aide, would be great and perfectly in character. Nobles do plenty more that is beneath them (or more accurately, often do nothing at all).  Having a legitimate reason to slap some menial in the dick, once in a blue moon, would no doubt be entertaining.

But even though I can dream, I doubt the economy would ever get to such a great place, as nobles actually having to exert influence on behalf of their employees. Which by the way, is pretty much what nobles and public officials have done since time immemorial in RL to turn a profit.

I don't think securing their aide's moneymaking business against a competitor is beneath them, either. Especially since we're talking about PC nobles. PC nobles, with precious few exceptions, are about as low on the totem pole as you can get, in terms of importance.

[Molten Heart]

double post

[Molten Heart]

Animals numbers don't actually rise and fall based on PC (in)actions

Technically, they do.

This is unfounded. It'd be interesting to see proof or have staff confirm this.

You can confirm it yourself. Go kill a carru on the north road. The next traveler will like as not, not see a carru.

But does this mean that the IC carru population is effected in any significant way that lasts longer than a RL hour, or even a day?

[Clearsighted]

Animals numbers don't actually rise and fall based on PC (in)actions

Technically, they do.

This is unfounded. It'd be interesting to see proof or have staff confirm this.

You can confirm it yourself. Go kill a carru on the north road. The next traveler will like as not, not see a carru.

But does this mean that the IC carru population is effected in any significant way that lasts longer than a RL hour, or even a day?
[/quote]

At least it's something tangible. And again, I've had roles where doing so, every so often, was a needed service.

...Not saying its ideal. But it is something, and it has doing stuff involved, and not pretending to do it.

[Cind]

I think it might be silly to assume there are only 2 watering holes in the game world.

Was just thinking about this, with mention of removal of watering holes.

Watering holes -do- need to be out in the wilderness.  But they need to not be free water-spots for just any joe-blow who's out hunting.  The only solution I could come up with was...HEY.  MAKE RAIDING GROUPS AND FIGHT FOR WATERING HOLES.

People have poisoned watering holes in the past, too. Two of my grebbers have died that way.

[Asmoth]

I think it might be silly to assume there are only 2 watering holes in the game world.

Was just thinking about this, with mention of removal of watering holes.

Watering holes -do- need to be out in the wilderness.  But they need to not be free water-spots for just any joe-blow who's out hunting.  The only solution I could come up with was...HEY.  MAKE RAIDING GROUPS AND FIGHT FOR WATERING HOLES.

People have poisoned watering holes in the past, too. Two of my grebbers have died that way.

Yup, protip always sip before you drink and always taste before you eat.

[MeTekillot]

SOMEONE'S POISONED THE WATERING HOLE

[HavokBlue]

i poisoned your aide's watering hole last night

zing

[Clearsighted]

SOMEONE'S POISONED THE WATERING HOLE

I love when that happens.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Change how clan cooks work. Instead of being cooks they are quartermasters and oversee the kitchen stock and supplies.

If you give them an item of food, it is now available via 'list'. There is NO LIMIT to how many of each item you can give them.

There is no cost involved in buying the food, you get no money for giving them the food. They simply store it and catalog it.

The food will be stored exactly as-is, raw or cooked.

The food list will be subject to vNPC purchases, so it will gradually deplete over time, even if no PCs are using it.

PC cooks are now a viable role as you will want someone who can cook up the raw food and make meals.

>give root quartermaster
A kitchen quartermaster accepts a roasted reddish root and adds it to the stores.

>list
A kitchen quartermaster has the following food available:
1) A few roasted reddish roots
2) Many grilled pink slabs of meat
3) Some raw hunks of white meat
4) Several thin green tubers

>buy #2 quartermaster
A kitchen quartermaster gives you a grilled pink slab of meat.



Trust me, there will be enough food. "Back in the day", clan cooks were valuable because you got way less from skinning an animal. Hunting was far more dangerous and difficult. Clan cooks as they currently work are now essentially obsolete.

As for noble houses and other areas where it makes sense, their kitchens can be set to re-populate automatically with a "delivery" of food, removing the necessity of PC hunters or Aide busy-work as they no doubt have deals worked out with various supply sources.

During times of famine, those deliveries can be made less frequently, or be of lower volume, to reflect the harder times.

There is a hide vendor in Blackwing that works exactly like I have in mind, except this would be a no-money exchange.

You could actually extend this to having quartermasters for the clan halls too. For animal parts, raw materials, cloth, etc. A basic amount of whatever makes sense would always be available, but anything extra would be supplied by the PCs and used by PCs and vNPCs alike, the frequency based on how much virtual demand there currently is.

To note the "plot" concerns:
Merchant House storage rooms don't get filled up because people are bored and searching for meaning in their life. They get filled up because their players naturally want to work on their character's skills, and the only way to do that outside sparring is to hunt stuff, and it would be ridiculous to leave all that food out to rot in the desert in a supposedly resource-scarce world.

You can do skill-gain and survival-related activities and have a perfectly healthy plot-life, the two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm really with this idea.

[Miko]

I really like when clans don't have an auto-cook. Getting water is more of a bland chore. Not giving free water gives you the excuse to spend all that coin on booze instead of water, so that's cool. Imagine being forced to only drink ale at the lightest. That'd be awesome.

[Cind]

The Byn would be screwed to high heaven, but the GMHs would be fine as long as they had a good hunter to everyone else ratio.

[Desertman]

I've been pushing for a while to make House hunters more useful on a meaningful level. I thought about it and realized I've been fighting the wrong battle. In reality, House hunters SHOULD feel like what they are accomplishing really doesn't matter....because it doesn't.

As a GMH hunter, you are one of hundreds upon hundreds of hunters all hunting the same things and providing those same things to the House. As a character, you KNOW what you are bringing in really doesn't matter a great deal which is why things like salaries aren't really that good usually, and the perks are kind of "meh" as well. (Covered in lots of other threads. No need to go back into that.)

A GMH hunter is someone who shows up, gets free water, free food, a bunk to sleep on and a footlocker, but in reality, you are the same dusty smelly hunter as the other several hundred who are just like you doing the exact same things.

This is why it doesn't matter if you bring in materials, or food, in terms of making the House successful. Does it matter in terms of you not getting fired if your PC boss discovers you are being lazy? Absolutely. Does it matter in terms of helping or hurting Salarr or Kadius? Not in the least. To the upper ranks of Salarr and Kadius, you are just hunter number 346 that is probably going to die soon. You are field fodder, just like all of the other field fodder.

So, as a House hunter what really is your goal? It isn't hunting. Hunting isn't going to get you anywhere because the House has hundreds of other hunters who are just as good at it if not better than you. All of that bahamet and horror shell is coming from somewhere for those orders that are being filled for bahamet and horror armor, and usually, that isn't being harvested by PC's. I don't just mean PC sales either. There must be hundreds of sets of that armor going out constantly to NPC's and VNPC's. This is what keeps Salarr's wheels turning. The fact your PC hunter exists, as far as hunting goes, is a footnote at best to the system and in reality, it probably doesn't even qualify as a footnote.

The more I think about it, I've been fighting the wrong fight. Making what your hunter does as far as hunting goes matter to the House is a ridiculous and pretty unrealistic goal. House hunters shouldn't be important to the House. What they do in terms of hunting shouldn't matter. If it did, that would mean Salarr and Kadius are so incredibly fragile that a single hunter out of hundreds actually has a way through hunting to affect their economies and monopolies.....and they don't. If they did it would be silly.

The goal of House hunters in terms of "measurable achievements" is almost required to be based on things not related to hunting in order to show their true value to the House through other means and accomplishments. That is the only way they can or should ever get noticed....hunting is just sort of the secondary focus, since IC'ly it isn't really needed, and OOC'ly the players of those hunters know it isn't needed (compounded infinitely more by the new NPC's going in for instant orders for all House crafts with no materials required).

In short, I've been complaining that House hunters aren't useful as hunters for a while and it bothered me, but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way. House hunters shouldn't be focused on hunting, if they want to be truly successful, they should be focusing on politics and finding a way to be useful outside of hunting...since that is the only way they are going to really shine.

[Patuk]

Just tie the food/water thing in with clan caps.

Suppose Nenyuk were open, and staff determined Nenyuk's ideal amount of players were 8. Nenyuk will now have its vendors hand out free food/water to the first 8 people to join up, but nothing for anyone who joins after that.

So, a sergeant/noble/whomever gets to hire people just fine. They'll just need to make sure they won't starve after a certain point.

[bracken]

Yes and no, Dman.
In my head, I see hunters materials going into a Crew bin, with surplus bagged up.
When their boss comes up for a "performance review", the functioning of their crew,would be part of it.

Have I missed something in your Internet inflexion

[Desertman]

Yes and no, Dman.
In my head, I see hunters materials going into a Crew bin, with surplus bagged up.
When their boss comes up for a "performance review", the functioning of their crew,would be part of it.

Have I missed something in your Internet inflexion

I'm not sure what you are asking.

[Clearsighted]

House hunters shouldn't be focused on hunting, if they want to be truly successful, they should be focusing on politics and finding a way to be useful outside of hunting...since that is the only way they are going to really shine.

I'd rather shine as a hunter, honestly. Your whole post was sort've depressing in a Tulukian sort've way. Not every role needs to be concerned with politics. Some just want to play a survival RPI, hunt animals, butcher them, cook food, have people actually need the food in a game where hunger depletion is a thing.

If stuff stays this automated, they might as well turn off hunger and thirst, cause having it only punishes newbies who can't get into a clan.

[Desertman]

House hunters shouldn't be focused on hunting, if they want to be truly successful, they should be focusing on politics and finding a way to be useful outside of hunting...since that is the only way they are going to really shine.

I'd rather shine as a hunter, honestly. Your whole post was sort've depressing in a Tulukian sort've way. Not every role needs to be concerned with politics. Some just want to play a survival RPI, hunt animals, butcher them, cook food, have people actually need the food in a game where hunger depletion is a thing.

If stuff stays this automated, they might as well turn off hunger and thirst, cause having it only punishes newbies who can't get into a clan.

I don't disagree with anything you have said. I would prefer that system as well myself. What my post is outlining is why that system doesn't, and probably can't exist, in terms of playing a GMH hunter.

(There are avenues in game however that allow you to play exactly the type of hunter you want to play. That avenue just isn't GMH's.)

If the House NEEDED anything your hunter brought in, it would mean the House was fragile enough, and its monopoly was fragile enough, that what a single hunter did mattered.

What your hunter does doesn't matter. It can't.

The orders will still get filled, the employees will still eat, and the House will still exist, if your hunter never brings in anything.

Will your hunter maybe get fired? Almost certainly. Will that matter to the House? No.

[BadSkeelz]

If you want to shine as a hunter, you better be doing something that isn't being accomplished by dozens of virtual hunters every day, or by any other reasonably-skilled PC. Without touching on politics: Hunt dangerous game, rare game, find rare plants or explore. Bring news and interesting new items back to your employers. Don't expect to get a pat on the head for bringing back your 9000th scrab steak.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is why the best hunters also happen to be the guy you go to to poison your blades, or the person you go to to scout out a new area, or the person you go to to kill something from a range, or the person you go to when you've got a bleeding wound that needs binded, or the person you go to to cure a poison.

You guys are trying to divorce the IC job from the OOC usefulness of a ranger(or of another classes specialization, using ranger for this instance). The reality is Armageddon is a game that's meant to function a very specific way, with classes that are as important to their IC roles as their job of killing animals is. You'll never have "just a hunter." when you hire a hunter. You get so, so much more.

[Barzalene]

My experience, while limited, is that to succeed as a GMH hunter is to play like being part of that crew matters. Going out and getting the job done is part, but coming back with everyone after getting the job done is better. Taking an interest in the house's interests. Looking out for people. (Or plotting to get rid of them if they can't belong, that's legit too.) One skin more or less doesn't matter, but the idea that you show up and do your job does. While it's true that to the organization you're just a hunter out of many, in your unit what you do and don't do is important. And for that reason, using something like Delirium's suggestion or getting rid of cooks, or anything that makes that contribution more quantifiable is important.

Oocly it's all one and zeros right? But while you play your role, it should feel meaningful. Crates of crap no one wants doesn't feel meaningful.