What if clans didn't give unlimited free food?

[Clearsighted]

I'm skeptical of the "there's people who'd actually like to do this" argument. People say the same thing about slave rolecalls (including big threads about how totes cool they are), but when Staff open them up they only get one or two applications.

Everyone having to scrounge for food follows a similar model in my mind: it sounds like a cool idea that fits with this harsh desert world our characters live in, but when faced with actually having to execute on it and work within the limitations the concept proscribes, we realize it's a pain in the ass.

What are you talking about? The reality of having to actually scrounge for our food is the reality that every non-clanned player already follows. It's not an unrealistic pain in the ass. It's not analogous to playing an iso-slave role, and deals with the game's only true universal economy (hunger). It's one of the core themes of the game that many people are drawn to and find deeply attractive (survival).

Many players don't join clans (or leave them) precisely because they enjoy that experience. Others soldier on and deal with it, because hey, there's lockers.

If this isn't your cup of tea, it would likely never affect you. Not unless you wanted to join a GMH as a hunter, and never actually hunt. But if that's the case, I feel no pity. Already, GMH hunters have little better to do than tavern sit and train.

The other 'combatty' GMH roles, such as the elite units that do have something else that is meaningful to do, are closed to PCs.

People are acting like their f-me is going to have to go fight a scrab, instead of getting their mekillot steak from the cook. But that's not the case. It's only going to affect hunters, and there are far more than enough hunters to feel these needs. (And hell, as a side bonus, maybe some bored hunters will stop bitching about having the elite GMH units opened again).

If what you are saying is taken to its logical conclusion, then why have hunger and thirst at all? Why not just be a MUSH?

[CodeMaster]

Some old ideas:

Virtual-refill water barrel: every OOC hour it doubles the amount of water it has in it due to "virtual efforts".  If it's empty, it stays empty.  But if players go out and collect water and dump it in the barrel -- and hold off for a while --  they'll soon have plenty of water until the next big binge (for a trip or something).

Virtual-refill food crate: every OOC hour, as long as it has some other piece of food in it, it adds a few rations until it's full.  If it's empty it stays empty (and so on).

I guess the idea is that resource collection and rationing would then need to be things players did, but not to a ridiculous and time-consuming extent.

[Nyr]

There are other scripts that are more generic that might work that way if you just know how that one script works.  For instance, take the one that we are using for player-created clan shopkeepers.  The reason that it will work for player-created clan shopkeepers is that there is going to be one PC to set up on the shopkeeper, with possibly one or two changes down the line...and that's it.  It is fire and forget. This won't work for a clan where multiple people might need access to change things, or where quartermaster PCs might change on a regular basis.  You could also reference that hide buyer script (which has been around since 2002), but that is geared specifically to that one scenario (it is for taking hides and giving money).  It has some other stuff in there that would be unnecessary to this overall desired goal, and if we were going to use either of these to do something, we would probably note them, then have a new script written up that takes these advantages into account while allowing more modular setup.

This leaves us with either:

• change things now using what we have with player-created clan shopkeepers, increasing staff workload now to frontload the script changes to at least a dozen or so situations, and also increase staff workload indefinitely as we need to add/remove clannies with script modifications.
• hack away at one or both of the above scripts, neither of which are intended to be used as quartermaster scripts (meaning they want to sell things, they don't want to provide things for free).  This is possible, but ultimately not the route we like to go down.
• add it to the list of things we want to do right, listing features we would want, player experience integration that we like, thereby needing no more staff involvement after initial setup

We almost always prefer the third option.  It takes longer, but we get a better product that we are much happier with implementing.

[BadSkeelz]

Heheh, foraging for tubers as something "meaningful." It'd be a chore, nothing more.

I never said it was unrealistic, either. Just a pain in the ass. Keeping the larders stocked is a tedious business no matter how realistic it is. Would you read a novel where a sizable portion of the pages are dedicated to the characters doing the same chores over and over again?

Finding resources to compete over is well and good, but surely we can do better than people fighting over potatoes and springwater. Relatively sophisticated societies and organizations don't evolve to fight at that scale. We should be fighting over farmland and trade routes and markets and mines (or some random magical doohickey). Nevermind that with current forage code, all you'd see are some hunters trudging out to the nearest forage room and spam-foraging up enough stuff to keep them alive for the rest of the week.

[Clearsighted]

There are other scripts that are more generic that might work that way if you just know how that one script works.  For instance, take the one that we are using for player-created clan shopkeepers.  The reason that it will work for player-created clan shopkeepers is that there is going to be one PC to set up on the shopkeeper, with possibly one or two changes down the line...and that's it.  It is fire and forget. This won't work for a clan where multiple people might need access to change things, or where quartermaster PCs might change on a regular basis.  You could also reference that hide buyer script (which has been around since 2002), but that is geared specifically to that one scenario (it is for taking hides and giving money).  It has some other stuff in there that would be unnecessary to this overall desired goal, and if we were going to use either of these to do something, we would probably note them, then have a new script written up that takes these advantages into account while allowing more modular setup.

This leaves us with either:

• change things now using what we have with player-created clan shopkeepers, increasing staff workload now to frontload the script changes to at least a dozen or so situations, and also increase staff workload indefinitely as we need to add/remove clannies with script modifications.
• hack away at one or both of the above scripts, neither of which are intended to be used as quartermaster scripts (meaning they want to sell things, they don't want to provide things for free).  This is possible, but ultimately not the route we like to go down.
• add it to the list of things we want to do right, listing features we would want, player experience integration that we like, thereby needing no more staff involvement after initial setup

We almost always prefer the third option.  It takes longer, but we get a better product that we are much happier with implementing.

I'm confident staff can come up with the right solution, to fit the changing landscape of the game.

1) The solution could be as simple as starting with the GMHs, and leaving the nobles and military alone. (I think everyone believes the Militia/Byn should always have their gruel, as that's a central theme of being a soldier. Communal eating of gruel). I'm okay with the nobles having it automated, although I do think the game would be better off if we returned to when they only got free water (which no one else did).

At least GMH player bloat would be kept down, and they'll become a bit more selective. I know staff has in the past, disliked it when those clans became mini-Byns. More players will find their way into more logical roles (House bodyguards, Militia etc), who truly do want the sedentary, tavern-sitting experience. GMHs have amazing perks gear wise, so there'll never be a lack of people wanting to join them, no matter what. Nobles and the Militia employers will benefit. GMH hunters will benefit.

2) Ideally, there should be massive crates/bins, that various raw materials need to find their way into, every 1-2 RL months, and if not filled, then the overseeing staffer can tweak the warehouse vendor to increase the prices of the stuff it sells. (As I understand it, each vendor has a variable that can be tweaked to change the cost of everything they sell). If it is filled, then the items can just be junked, carried off by VNPCs, and prices stay the same.

Some players might disagree with 1 and 2, but I think we can agree that on the scale of staff burden, they are practically nonexistent. And might even reduce staff work. At the very least it'll let staffers know how their clans are really doing.

[valeria]

I think this is the major thing bothering me about this thread: I've played several clanned characters and had staff give me zero guff about junking excess resources, including food.  So it's a tedious chore you don't want to do... that's about how I feel about the thought of having to go spam buy food because my clan has no hunters. Why is avoiding your idea of tedium more valuable than avoiding my idea of tedium?  (With the exception of Lizzie's broken table). 

[Clearsighted]

I think this is the major thing bothering me about this thread: I've played several clanned characters and had staff give me zero guff about junking excess resources, including food.  So it's a tedious chore you don't want to do... that's about how I feel about the thought of having to go spam buy food because my clan has no hunters. Why is avoiding your idea of tedium more valuable than avoiding my idea of tedium?  (With the exception of Lizzie's broken table).  

Because arbitrarily junking stuff for no reason kills immersion. As a hunter, I'm not going to be able to empty my clan's food bins (stuffed since 2007) and junk it, just to pretend I'm contributing to it. When I was a leader, and had to find stuff for our hunters to do, I always felt stupid doing it (and hid the fact from the players beneath me, who would have instantly lost interest in my quests, if they knew it was pitying makework). Being the one that had to junk stuff to let others keep having fun, was a soul-killing burden I took upon myself. What happens usually is the bins just stay full forever.

I have every sympathy for your f-me aide, but I don't think she'll be affected. I'm fine with the noble houses keeping their automated food (for the nobles). I personally think, that most aides would enjoy having the responsibility and they'll be missing out.

I get that some people are so jaded with the game, as to be beyond all survival aspects of it, and simply wish hunger and thirst was turned off, so they could emote all day. I personally, still want to play an RPI MUD (your idea of tedium), not a MUSH (my idea of tedium).

Even if noble houses were affected (which they should be, but I'm willing to compromise), sending someone to the grocer with 500 sids, is not a great burden. And I find it hilarious that you think it is. You probably also hate having to ask the cook for food and eat it as being equally tedious.

Meanwhile, there's no realistic possibility of Salarr, Kadius or Kurac not having enough eager and willing hunters. Not when the coded benefits of the restricted gear those clans offer is so superior. And any tribes that are getting free food, should stop getting free food (wouldn't surprise me if the Sun Runners were).

[Barzalene]

I think this is the major thing bothering me about this thread: I've played several clanned characters and had staff give me zero guff about junking excess resources, including food.  So it's a tedious chore you don't want to do... that's about how I feel about the thought of having to go spam buy food because my clan has no hunters. Why is avoiding your idea of tedium more valuable than avoiding my idea of tedium?  (With the exception of Lizzie's broken table). 

I'm with you. But its the kind of thing I can delegate to a minion, and they'll be important and trusted with a job. Maybe they'll steal the sid and I can hunt them down and kill them. Its beautiful.

[HavokBlue]

There sure are some silly generalizations being made about people who don't like the idea of removing cook NPCs.

[Barzalene]

There are sure are some silly generalizations being made about people who don't like the idea of removing cook NPCs.

Agreed.

[Molten Heart]

If NPC cooks are removed, I suggest NPCs that sell food be added.

[RogueGunslinger]

All I can say is that there are clans you can join right now to experience the "no automated food or water" in-city clan experience. It's tedious for the leaders to have to restock with food and water. And it's downright unplayable for any underlings who can't get a hold of leaders when the food and water runs out. Starve or log out. The only difference I see for GMH's is that it either won't effect them at all, because they will have tons of food stockpiled becuase they're already out hunting. Or it will cause hunters to have to do more of what they're already doing, only now it's becomes a chore they have to get done for others, repeatedly, for the rest of their career.

[Barzalene]

All I can say is that there are clans you can join right now to experience the "no automated food or water" in-city clan experience. It's tedious for the leaders to have to restock with food and water. And it's downright unplayable for any underlings who can't get a hold of leaders when the food and water runs out. Starve or log out. The only difference I see for GMH's is that it either won't effect them at all, because they will have tons of food stockpiled becuase they're already out hunting. Or it will cause hunters to have to do more of what they're already doing, only now it's becomes a chore they have to get done for others, repeatedly, for the rest of their career.

I don't know that you're not right. That's why I think it would be neat to try other thing for a finite period. Trying thing that don't need coding first, makes sense to me.

[bcw81]

Hey guys, fair warning - please don't flame bait in these threads. Thanks!

[Clearsighted]

There sure are some silly generalizations being made about people who don't like the idea of removing cook NPCs.

It's fine. But I find your idea of pretending to be hunting and contributing when you're actually not, to be equally silly.

I also dislike people exaggerating the effect it will have on them, when in all likelihood, unless they specifically sought out a role as a hunter, it never would. So it rings false, when people begin to panic, as if their aide is going to have to hunt a scrab.

The most logical and common sense approach, is to assume, like Barzalene, that these responsibilities will find their way to the people that want them. The halved number of clans makes this more likely. There are no elite GMH units to detract from these responsibilities either.

[BadSkeelz]

Know what I do when I have extra food or resources that I want to get rid of? I junk them, but put in a command emote saying I'm handing them over to the Quartermaster/cook/whoever. Maybe it breaks your immersion, but for me it's the same as going out to the desert to kill spiders "to keep their numbers down." Animals numbers don't actually rise and fall based on PC (in)actions, it's just the server resetting.... But I'm able to separate that OOC notion and interpret the game as my character should be.

If you're a hunter who doesn't feel like he's contributing, go out and hunt anyway. Junk your food by turning it in to the Quartermaster. You'll be feeding virtual employees and accomplishing the same task as if a PC was eating your food.

[Clearsighted]

Animals numbers don't actually rise and fall based on PC (in)actions

Technically, they do. There is utility to be found in keeping the roads safe. And such patrols as there are, mostly revolve around that real need. Kurac at least, has a good thing going, since it makes sense to keep the way safe to Luirs.

I was quite pleased when the North Road between Nak and Luirs got destroyed.

[Armaddict]

This thread f'in exploded.

Just wanted to reiterate that this is how things used to be, and no one is going to starve to death, and aides do, essentially, end up with an additional duty of keeping track of food stocks and what not.  Which is a pretty important job.

I would just approve the idea outright, I think, except I'm still concerned that there's players like me.  I don't play clanned hunters because I don't need to.  There aren't any raiders to deal with.  I can gauge safety of at rip fairly easily.  I don't have huge expenses.  I can -sell- food for great profit and feed myself.

This change incentivizes HIRING hunters, but it doesn't incentivize BEING a house hunter.  Rules and shit?  When I can do it all on my own?  Can offer me as much coin as you want and I'll make more, but now your free food and water thing is moot, your barracks is unnecessary, and I don't need buddies because the wilderness is not that dangerous.  *makes an obnoxious shrug at house hiring rep*

I like noble houses having cooks, though.

[Clearsighted]

This thread f'in exploded.

Just wanted to reiterate that this is how things used to be, and no one is going to starve to death, and aides do, essentially, end up with an additional duty of keeping track of food stocks and what not.  Which is a pretty important job.

I would just approve the idea outright, I think, except I'm still concerned that there's players like me.  I don't play clanned hunters because I don't need to.  There aren't any raiders to deal with.  I can gauge safety of at rip fairly easily.  I don't have huge expenses.  I can -sell- food for great profit and feed myself.

This change incentivizes HIRING hunters, but it doesn't incentivize BEING a house hunter.  Rules and shit?  When I can do it all on my own?  Can offer me as much coin as you want and I'll make more, but now your free food and water thing is moot, your barracks is unnecessary, and I don't need buddies because the wilderness is not that dangerous.  *makes an obnoxious shrug at house hiring rep*

I like noble houses having cooks, though.

Good points, here Armaddict. I'd only add, that in my experience at least, free water and a safe locker has always been the main draw, with the added benefit of extremely potent clan-restricted gear. And free stabling. That and the camaraderie/training. In the top 5 reasons to join a GMH, I don't think free food would make the list, even at the moment.

Maybe it's worth a poll. (i.e, where would you rate: free water, safe locker, restricted gear, free stabling, camaraderie, specialized training, housing, salary, free food, RPTs, on a list of your most cherished benefits from joining a clan).

[HavokBlue]

you can get free wood pretty easily

just roll up a female PC

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Armaddict]

This thread f'in exploded.

Just wanted to reiterate that this is how things used to be, and no one is going to starve to death, and aides do, essentially, end up with an additional duty of keeping track of food stocks and what not.  Which is a pretty important job.

I would just approve the idea outright, I think, except I'm still concerned that there's players like me.  I don't play clanned hunters because I don't need to.  There aren't any raiders to deal with.  I can gauge safety of at rip fairly easily.  I don't have huge expenses.  I can -sell- food for great profit and feed myself.

This change incentivizes HIRING hunters, but it doesn't incentivize BEING a house hunter.  Rules and shit?  When I can do it all on my own?  Can offer me as much coin as you want and I'll make more, but now your free food and water thing is moot, your barracks is unnecessary, and I don't need buddies because the wilderness is not that dangerous.  *makes an obnoxious shrug at house hiring rep*

I like noble houses having cooks, though.

Good points, here Armaddict. I'd only add, that in my experience at least, free water and a safe locker has always been the main draw, with the added benefit of extremely potent clan-restricted gear. And free stabling. That and the camaraderie/training. In the top 5 reasons to join a GMH, I don't think free food would make the list, even at the moment.

Maybe it's worth a poll.

Erm.  That's not the issue at all.  Hunters won't join up for free food.  You listed what their incentives are.  But in the absence of hunters, that leaves...other people scrounging, which means every hiring dry spell turns into PC's of a merchant house struggling to get by, using their pay for food, etc etc.  That was the point of the story, not the hunter's plight.  The hunters don't have a plight right now.  Houses do.

[Barzalene]

 But in the absence of hunters, that leaves...other people scrounging, which means every hiring dry spell turns into PC's of a merchant house struggling to get by, using their pay for food, etc etc.  That was the point of the story, not the hunter's plight.  The hunters don't have a plight right now.  Houses do.

Wait, wait. In the absense of hunters the merchant or agent or lead crafter withdraws house funds and buys some raw goods, I would think!

[Molten Heart]

Buy food from indy hunters.

[bardlyone]

I'd only add, that in my experience at least, free water and a safe locker has always been the main draw, with the added benefit of extremely potent clan-restricted gear. And free stabling. That and the camaraderie/training. In the top 5 reasons to join a GMH, I don't think free food would make the list, even at the moment.

Maybe it's worth a poll. (i.e, where would you rate: free water, safe locker, restricted gear, free stabling, camaraderie, specialized training, housing, salary, free food, RPTs, on a list of your most cherished benefits from joining a clan).

Not everyone HAS YOUR experience. And if I had to rate -my- motivations for joining a clan, in order:

free water
free food
housing - limited and available outside clans as well as in them.
rpts - neato if you can get to attend them - which I often can't because usually I can't be around during peak time
restricted gear - something I have never come across as a benefit in over half a decade of playing clanned as often as not, so moot in plenty of cases.
camraderie - moot point if you have no one ever on and around when you are
safe locker - unless someone decides to rob it - its in a communal space after all
free stabling is irrelevant - guess what, your hunter may like that, but crafters, aides, and any other city bound role but the Byn typically doesn't need a mount, so moot
specialized training is a moot point - even hopping clans aren't hopping when no one else is around when you are so no training
salary - less than indies can make, which is good because as an indie you DO have to buy food/water unless you're a hunter, but still way not enough to motivate someone to join a clan when you go at least a year without pay up front

[Clearsighted]

I'd only add, that in my experience at least, free water and a safe locker has always been the main draw, with the added benefit of extremely potent clan-restricted gear. And free stabling. That and the camaraderie/training. In the top 5 reasons to join a GMH, I don't think free food would make the list, even at the moment.

Maybe it's worth a poll. (i.e, where would you rate: free water, safe locker, restricted gear, free stabling, camaraderie, specialized training, housing, salary, free food, RPTs, on a list of your most cherished benefits from joining a clan).

Not everyone HAS YOUR experience. And if I had to rate -my- motivations for joining a clan, in order:

free water
free food
housing - limited and available outside clans as well as in them.
rpts - neato if you can get to attend them - which I often can't because usually I can't be around during peak time
restricted gear - something I have never come across as a benefit in over half a decade of playing clanned as often as not, so moot in plenty of cases.
camraderie - moot point if you have no one ever on and around when you are
safe locker - unless someone decides to rob it - its in a communal space after all
free stabling is irrelevant - guess what, your hunter may like that, but crafters, aides, and any other city bound role but the Byn typically doesn't need a mount, so moot
specialized training is a moot point - even hopping clans aren't hopping when no one else is around when you are so no training
salary - less than indies can make, which is good because as an indie you DO have to buy food/water unless you're a hunter, but still way not enough to motivate someone to join a clan when you go at least a year without pay up front

Very interesting list. I wouldn't mind hearing more people's takes on it.

For me, it's more like:
1) locker, 2) stabling (saves me from always having to get out 20 sids!), 3) camaraderie, 4) training, 5) gear (it's out there - and glorious)

I too have a schedule that rarely allows me the luxury of a big RPT.