What if clans didn't give unlimited free food?

[Desertman]

Just tell your hunters to stop bringing in food because realistically you aren't using it and you don't need it.

Is that IC'ly jarring for a hunter? Yes. Is it still an IC fact? Yes.

The fact that hunters don't need to bring in food for the cooks is not an IC fact at all. It's an OOC fact.

It's an IC fact. The cooks are supplied by tons of OTHER VNPC hunters in the background, which is why those NPC cooks will be there giving out food even if there are no PC hunters in the clan.

The fact there are vast hordes of VNPC hunters providing food to the clan means that the food the PC hunters are providing is IC'ly not needed.

Can you argue, "Well, every little bit helps.", sure you can...but the raw fact is, even without PC hunters, the food is still coming in and WILL still be there from VNPC hunters....so...not needed.

Now, that aside, the fact is the players of those PC hunters know on an OOC level that what they are doing is pointless, not needed, and will just be junked.

PC hunters enjoy knowing that what they are doing is pointless about as much as PC merchants enjoy placing orders repeatedly for items and feeling like vending machines I imagine.

Then again, I am very "accomplishment" driven. I like for my accomplishments to be measurable. Some people might be just fine and happy with "virtually accomplishing something" instead of actually accomplishing something. That's not for me and I get nothing out of it.

[RogueGunslinger]

 The only possible "benifits" I see people espousing for the idea of removing food/water sources in clans is to have more incentive to hire hunters. And have more reason for hunters to hunt stuff. And to enforce the brutal reality that food and water are scarce.

None of these "benifits" are realistic enough justification to do this. Clans shouldn't be the place representing how little food/water there is in the world, they should be the exception to that brutal reality. GMH houses already have plenty of incentive to hire hunters, and hunters have plenty incentive to hunt. So besides those three things what does removing food/water sources do for the game?

[Desertman]

The only possible "benifits" I see people espousing for the idea of removing food/water sources in clans is to have more incentive to hire hunters. And have more reason for hunters to hunt stuff. And to enforce the brutal reality that food and water are scarce.

None of these "benifits" are realistic enough justification to do this. Clans shouldn't be the place representing how little food/water there is in the world, they should be the exception to that brutal reality. GMH houses already have plenty of incentive to hire hunters, and hunters have plenty incentive to hunt. So besides those three things what does removing food/water sources do for the game?

One benefit would be that I would enjoy it.

Would it be good for the game as a whole is another question that I don't have a good answer for and that I'm not qualified to even answer.

Either way, I have to admit I am arguing for my side of it because I am biased to wanting things I would enjoy.

[RogueGunslinger]

Okay, that's actually something I can understand. Which parts would you enjoy about it? The idea of having a specific goal for you character to log into a work towards? The idea of scarcity in clans and people struggling? Something else? I'm sure whatever it is you like about the idea can be retrofitted into some other idea that isn't quite as ham-fisted as completely removing automated food/water.

[bardlyone]

Very interesting list. I wouldn't mind hearing more people's takes on it.

For me, it's more like:
1) locker, 2) stabling (saves me from always having to get out 20 sids!), 3) camaraderie, 4) training, 5) gear (it's out there - and glorious)

I too have a schedule that rarely allows me the luxury of a big RPT.

I PMed you a bit more of my reasoning as it might've been a bit over the line to share it publicly on the forums, but I can understand if others have other priorities. Hell, mount stabling's never been a real concern of mine, as most of my hunter pcs have done so on foot, but I see where public stables would get old quick for the stabling fees if you have a pc who is using them RL daily or multiple times a day. Last time I was in a clan, it's been less than a RL month, #3 never happened as I saw others from my clan a combined total of times which I can count on my fingers without repeating a finger, and #4 actually relied on the NPC cook which is another part of my position here. #5 is... something a good 100 pcs of mine have managed never to be granted or come across. Outside the real basic livery you're forced into in a clan at least. The locker was super handy and part of why most of my clanned pcs never try and get their own place historically, unless they want to live with someone. I've had stuff stolen before though, so would consider it more a matter of free storage than secure storage. I do get how different played experiences would lead you to different opinions though on these things.

[Armaddict]

 But in the absence of hunters, that leaves...other people scrounging, which means every hiring dry spell turns into PC's of a merchant house struggling to get by, using their pay for food, etc etc.  That was the point of the story, not the hunter's plight.  The hunters don't have a plight right now.  Houses do.

Wait, wait. In the absense of hunters the merchant or agent or lead crafter withdraws house funds and buys some raw goods, I would think!

That's what I'm talking about though.  This leads to things hemorrhaging in ways that are, in actuality, kind of an unrealistic way for them to hemorrhage, while also bringing back some mundane tasks that don't add too much.  However, if the indie hunter role gets curbed back to make a clanned hunter the way to be as it once was, this all changes.

[Clearsighted]

The only possible "benifits" I see people espousing for the idea of removing food/water sources in clans is to have more incentive to hire hunters. And have more reason for hunters to hunt stuff. And to enforce the brutal reality that food and water are scarce.

That's about it, yes.

Okay, that's actually something I can understand. Which parts would you enjoy about it? The idea of having a specific goal for you character to log into a work towards? The idea of scarcity in clans and people struggling? Something else? I'm sure whatever it is you like about the idea can be retrofitted into some other idea that isn't quite as ham-fisted as completely removing automated food/water.

Honestly, I don't see a way to enforce food and water scarcity, so long as food remains automated and free. By the way, people are starving. Now go stuff your face with six chalton steaks, and pack a couple dozen more for the trip, Recruit.

It's more impressive that Zalanthas doesn't have an obesity epidemic.

[KankWhisperer]

I like gathering resources sometimes.  What do people want to be doing? Tavern sitting? Not everyone can be involved in high level plots. Someone has to be the minion.

[Clearsighted]

Very interesting list. I wouldn't mind hearing more people's takes on it.

For me, it's more like:
1) locker, 2) stabling (saves me from always having to get out 20 sids!), 3) camaraderie, 4) training, 5) gear (it's out there - and glorious)

I too have a schedule that rarely allows me the luxury of a big RPT.

I PMed you a bit more of my reasoning as it might've been a bit over the line to share it publicly on the forums, but I can understand if others have other priorities. Hell, mount stabling's never been a real concern of mine, as most of my hunter pcs have done so on foot, but I see where public stables would get old quick for the stabling fees if you have a pc who is using them RL daily or multiple times a day. Last time I was in a clan, it's been less than a RL month, #3 never happened as I saw others from my clan a combined total of times which I can count on my fingers without repeating a finger, and #4 actually relied on the NPC cook which is another part of my position here. #5 is... something a good 100 pcs of mine have managed never to be granted or come across. Outside the real basic livery you're forced into in a clan at least. The locker was super handy and part of why most of my clanned pcs never try and get their own place historically, unless they want to live with someone. I've had stuff stolen before though, so would consider it more a matter of free storage than secure storage. I do get how different played experiences would lead you to different opinions though on these things.

I replied to your PM, and I think the situation you described, is like the Byn and Militia, a worthy exception for important thematic reasons that supersede the arguments being made here. Soldiers and mercenary companies are supposed to have their communal gruel. Another clan might be in a similar situation.

(GMHs have no important thematic reasons, by contrast, as at least half the clan, by any conservative estimate, revolves around supplying and hunting).

[valeria]

Honestly, I don't see a way to enforce food and water scarcity, so long as food remains automated and free. By the way, people are starving. Now go stuff your face with six chalton steaks, and pack a couple dozen more for the trip, Recruit.

It's more impressive that Zalanthas doesn't have an obesity epidemic.

This is only the case for clanned pcs. Which aren't representative of the whole game world, or even the whole pc experience. It's entirely possible to play a PC on the edge of starving. The best way to do it is to be city based and not join a clan, line most of the virtual world.

[RogueGunslinger]

The only possible "benifits" I see people espousing for the idea of removing food/water sources in clans is to have more incentive to hire hunters. And have more reason for hunters to hunt stuff. And to enforce the brutal reality that food and water are scarce.

That's about it, yes.

This seems like a slipshod way of accomplishing those things. Surely there are better ways that don't end up having the possible problems I've already gone on about.

You want food/water to be scare, get rid of the watering-hole right outside the major city. Make forage not be a free way to get food at novice levels. Add food rot.

You want hunters to have more reasons to hunt? Add in rare, unique animals in far-strung places that have cool materials which provide unique properties. Add in a new predatory species that is driving out diversity and needs to be hunted to restore balance. Throw in some plots, don't delete code and add possible problems.

You want GMH's to have more incentive to hire hunters? Why? Hunters are probably the most common character type in the game. Even mercs and soldiers become glorified hunters 75% of the time. There are never any lack of hunters. GMH's consistently get players and have merchants who need to hire players to go out and get materials for them. Throw in all those incentives to hunt I put above, and you'll have more incentive to hire anyways.

I like gathering resources sometimes.  What do people want to be doing? Tavern sitting? Not everyone can be involved in high level plots. Someone has to be the minion.

You don't need to take away food/water sources in clans to get people to gather resources.

[bardlyone]

Honestly, I don't see a way to enforce food and water scarcity, so long as food remains automated and free. By the way, people are starving. Now go stuff your face with six chalton steaks, and pack a couple dozen more for the trip, Recruit.

It's more impressive that Zalanthas doesn't have an obesity epidemic.

This is only the case for clanned pcs. Which aren't representative of the whole game world, or even the whole pc experience. It's entirely possible to play a PC on the edge of starving. The best way to do it is to be city based and not join a clan, line most of the virtual world.

I tend to agree with this. And the only one of the GMH's that doesn't have specific foodstuffs involved in their business is Salarr. Kurac has all sorts of candies and cakes, albeit with spice, and part of Kadius' whole shtick is 'delicacies' (it's right in the help file) which translates to 'fine foods'. And perhaps ironically, Salarr is the one who would have the smallest amount of issue/struggle with this, because they regularly need bone and leather to make their goods, as opposed to silk and rocks for kadius, or sandcloth and spice for Kurac. And it's typically Salarr that has the most excess meat anyhow. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing this happen with Salarr, but with the other GMH's, it seems dubious at best, as to the benefit to gameplay for more than a small handful of people who say they would enjoy it, as opposed to at least as many if not more, who don't want to worry with it.

[Clearsighted]

The only possible "benifits" I see people espousing for the idea of removing food/water sources in clans is to have more incentive to hire hunters. And have more reason for hunters to hunt stuff. And to enforce the brutal reality that food and water are scarce.

That's about it, yes.

This seems like a slipshod way of accomplishing those things. Surely there are better ways that don't end up having the possible problems I've already gone on about.

You want food/water to be scare, get rid of the watering-hole right outside the major city. Make forage not be a free way to get food at novice levels. Add food rot.

Hah. That seems like a slipshod way of ensuring you can only play in clans. It's vastly more satisfying to go out and forage up water, or creep warily into a local watering hole and furtively fill a waterskin. That's an iconic survival RPI/Armageddon experience. Does anyone else remember how they first felt, when they began playing and found water in the wilderness? Anyways. I'm talking about food. I don't mind clans keeping water as their perk (i'd rather they didn't, but I don't expect everything to be as I like it, only some of the things!)

I can't imagine you're actually advocating removing the one or two waterholes left in the game, and all the great RP and tension that often surrounds them, in favor of automated clan water.

The rest of your ideas, and food rot, sounds good. But I can't really believe you'd advocate the above.

[bardlyone]

Also, there's about 0 chance of an obesity epidemic. When you consume primarily or solely protein, your body starves. 'protein starvation'. Look it up, it's a real thing.

[Synthesis]

As long as food is available to purchase within the city, you don't even need hunters to go hunt things.  One decently-branched merchant could bankroll an entire clan's food and water expenses, and still be rich.

The problem is when the city's shop resources start to get scarce, and you get noble clans fighting over dumb shit like whose merchant gets the "rights" to sell silk goods at the Kadius shop, or when you have nobles paying templars to jail that Bynner subclass knife-maker for maxing out the sale of yellow, blue, red, silver, purple, green, orange, and gold throwing knives that the noble's aide was using to manage the food payroll.  I mean, yeah, that's conflict or whatever, but it's not really the kind of shit that noble clans should be involved with, if you ask me.

The second problem is that the logistics of the situation would be pretty fucking annoying.  You'd have to have a widely accessible food/water storage location for everyone in your clan, which could easily lead to everyone in your clan getting poisoned by one retarded twink, or you'd have your middle-management constantly doling out snacks from the pantry like some kind of fucking kindergarten teacher.

[Clearsighted]

The problem is when the city's shop resources start to get scarce, and you get noble clans fighting over dumb shit like whose merchant gets the "rights" to sell silk goods at the Kadius shop, or when you have nobles paying templars to jail that Bynner subclass knife-maker for maxing out the sale of yellow, blue, red, silver, purple, green, orange, and gold throwing knives that the noble's aide was using to manage the food payroll.  I mean, yeah, that's conflict or whatever, but it's not really the kind of shit that noble clans should be involved with, if you ask me.

Dude. That sounds awesome to me. I pray for the day something like that happens in Arm. I'm sure there are a few dozen rostered Tuluki nobles that would have enjoyed anything half so interesting to do.

[Barzalene]

More fun if we can call them Scoobie snacks!

[BadSkeelz]

Nobles fighting over the right to sell knives to merchants would be like the President of Russia and the United States fighting over a parking space at McDonalds.

[Armaddict]

Nobles fighting over the right to sell knives to merchants would be like the President of Russia and the United States fighting over a parking space at McDonalds.

This would also be awesome, though.

[bardlyone]

Nobles fighting over the right to sell knives to merchants would be like the President of Russia and the United States fighting over a parking space at McDonalds.

This would also be awesome, though.

It would be below them and totally realistic, regardless how awesome you think it is, though.

If the problem is that hunters are feeling like they are flavor roles, and what their JOB IS is to provide MATERIALS NOT FOOD to craft, then clearly the problem to solve for their uselessness lies in making the clan only items craftable and not loading them, and FORCING PCS to gather the damn materials for it or you don't get your order. Not in taking out 2/3 (or even 1/3) of the tenuous precious few material benefits you get with every clanned role for the sake of fixing a problem that is rooted in something else entirely.

[Molten Heart]

Animals numbers don't actually rise and fall based on PC (in)actions

Technically, they do.

This is unfounded. It'd be interesting to see proof or have staff confirm this.

[Molten Heart]

You want food/water to be scare, get rid of the watering-hole right outside the major city. Make forage not be a free way to get food at novice levels. Add food rot.

I thought it'd be cool if some outfit started selling this water.

The thick and short figure in a brown sandcloth cloak says in sirihish: 'Water is fifty coins, all you can drink. What no coins? Drop your pack or bend over!"

[Clearsighted]

Nobles fighting over the right to sell knives to merchants would be like the President of Russia and the United States fighting over a parking space at McDonalds.

Not even remotely. We're not talking Tektolnes or a black robe. We're talking about run of the mill, low ranking player noble here. A tiff, started by their aides, is perfect. A perfectly flippant reason to have a Templar screw over some poor Bynner.

Anyways. I'm sure Putin has done worse, for more banal reasons. And in Armageddon, he'd be a paragon of justice.

Animals numbers don't actually rise and fall based on PC (in)actions

Technically, they do.

This is unfounded. It'd be interesting to see proof or have staff confirm this.

You can confirm it yourself. Go kill a carru on the north road. The next traveler will like as not, not see a carru.

[HavokBlue]

I think it might be silly to assume there are only 2 watering holes in the game world.

And there are still water vendors in the city.


When you can forage food, buy food, easily find water for free, or hunt twenty vultures that respawn before you make it back to the gates, you're not going to get anybody fighting over food and water. It's just not going to happen.

You can confirm it yourself. Go kill a carru on the north road. The next traveler will like as not, not see a carru.

You're being kind of pedantic here. That carru will respawn pretty reliably and with the zone refresh changes, there's an annoyingly good chance that the next traveler will encounter a carru. The rate at which players hunt NPCs does not affect the volume or rate at which they respawn.

[BadSkeelz]

You can replace Heads of States with something maybe more appropriate (Congressmen? State officials?) and the point remains the same: it's a laughably petty activity for them to be engaging in. You're setting the bar for noble-driven conflict so low we might as well not have nobles. They'd just become an extension of spam-crafting indie merchants getting in to their tiffs. We should be wanting our sponsored roles to have the desire and ability to drive interesting plots that can involve large swathes of the player base, not spending all their time engaging in this kind of menial dickslapping.