Magick: how does my character deal with it?

[Salt Merchant]

I really wouldn't like to see that room removed. If you're really wanting to see RP with them, wait in their temple for 2-3 minutes, rather than spamwalking past with a glance inside it. I've ALWAYS had the temple there filled with magickers 90% of the time when playing a viv. You want to interact with vivs, it's on you to pursue it, not to drive them out of their hidey hole that the other elementalists get. Sorry, but fuck that. If they WANT to interact with you, they will. If they don't, they won't. It's as simple as that.

Frankly, I hate that room. Its description has ridiculously posh elements and its location makes no sense. Regardless, the Vivaduans are welcome to stay in their hidey holes if they want. What they do get is a "screening function" that the other temples don't get. That's what should be eliminated.

Maybe other people are willing to pursue Vivaduans they don't even know (since they never get to see them). My characters will just assume that if they don't come outside, they don't want to be bothered, and walk past every time. Too bad.


EDIT: And no community.

[Salt Merchant]

Sometimes events like that really start to show that mundanes are cannon fodder for magickers, who use the mundanes as meat shields. I appreciate the place of gemmers and magickers in the game, but I don't think that place is best represented by any organization calling on their assistance. I think even templars should be looked at weirdly by other templars if they're using gemmers for things soldiers can do. And there are some things gemmers can do that soldiers can't, so just leave that to the gemmers.

I think I'll point out that one of the highest ranked noble houses employs the gemmed on a regular basis, and is still able to command respect among the other noble houses. So I wouldn't expect other templars to look at templars that use them oddly. Especially since they're so useful every time another wave of big baddies attacks or when there's trouble outside of the city.

[Intrepid]

I would agree with Salt Merchant: The suspense is over.  Yes, you the commoner know that magickers are useful.  You don't have to like them.  No one's said that the commoner can't hold on to their precious hatred of magickers.  That said, telling a templar or a noble who they can or can't employ should result in your tongue being removed.  Telling a merchant house who they can or can't employ should result in raucous laughter; remember, these are orgs that exist in both city-states, even in Red Storm and outlying areas.  They are not voted in by commoners and they have more money currently in their pockets than you will ever see.

The issue becomes that Arm is about low resources and scrambling for an edge over your competition.  If you're suddenly "above" using a certain tool, you've just broken the immersion level as much as you would if an elf was riding a kank.  Yes, you don't like magickers.  That's fine.  But to refuse to use the tools at your command?  It should be suicide.

[Cutthroat]

I think I'll point out that one of the highest ranked noble houses employs the gemmed on a regular basis, and is still able to command respect among the other noble houses. So I wouldn't expect other templars to look at templars that use them oddly. Especially since they're so useful every time another wave of big baddies attacks or when there's trouble outside of the city.

Yes, and the Allanaki templarate and House Oash retain their own force of mundane employees for a reason. My point was that reliance on the gemmed by groups you wouldn't expect to use them (and, in comparison, over-reliance on gemmed by the groups you would expect to use them) does nothing but exclude the mundane population that is supposed to be assigned difficult (and entertaining for the player, hopefully) tasks as well. I know as a mundane minion player I would start to resent the fact that the mages are being given more to do than I am, because I actually experienced that. Use them, but why use them for everything? Why put them at unnecessary risk if they are so useful?

It is valid to assess one of the perceived problems in this thread from that point of view and figure out whether the decreased, unvarying interaction between mundanes and magickers that some people are complaining about in this thread (that leads to everyone getting killed on sight regardless of actual power or potential) actually stems from other occurrences in the game.

[spawnloser]

So... wait... hold on.  You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there?  Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant.  (Read the room descriptions people.)  And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to?  That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.

[Cutthroat]

So... wait... hold on.  You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there?  Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant.  (Read the room descriptions people.)  And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to?  That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.

Agreed. There is a reason those rooms are the way they are. Hate to use a cliche but "be the change you want to see" if you want to change the Vivaduan Temple or any other area in any way.

[Salt Merchant]

So... wait... hold on.  You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there?  Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant.  (Read the room descriptions people.)  And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to?  That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.

It was never their explicit function, but it was their effective function for a long time, and it worked well. That room appeared after the big announcement of 2006, even, when we'd been told no more building. #$%*!

[jriley]

That is all well and good, so have/do I. But should your PC hate/fear a rukkian the same as they do a sorcerer? I don't think so, and that has been half of my point.

I would agree.

I politely disagree with both of you.  Given that your average PC is an illiterate/superstitious commoner, I don't anticipate that your average PC will know enough about magic to tell the difference between an elementalist or a sorcerer, or even between the different types of elementalists.

Obviously, many players are going to disagree with me for the reason that these sorts of things are spelled out pretty clearly in the docs.  I don't think that your average character knows everything that's in the docs.  For example, things like hitpoints are described in the game docs.  Does my character know what hitpoints are?  It's game mechanics. 

Expecting your average (superstitious/illiterate) PC to know the difference between a sorcerer and a Rukkian is like expecting your average Tea Party member to know the difference between a Trotskyist and a Stalinist.

While I do think that your average commoner PC can force themselves to stand in the same room as a spell-caster given sufficient motivation, I don't think that they could do so without sweating nervously.  I happen to think it's a perfectly understandable reaction for commoners to loose their shit and run when they see a spell-caster, even if the spell-caster presents no obvious threat.

[Lizzie]

Actually your average commoner *Allanak* citizen would definitely know the difference. They have an entire quarter dedicated to the elementalist temples.

The average Tuluki would probably not only not know the difference, but wouldn't care whether or not there is one. The average Tuluki commoner citizen would fear/loathe/hate all magicks equally, because all magicks are equally illegal in Tuluk.

Elsewhere, people might, or might not know, depending on the kind of exposure they've had to the different types.

It is known pretty universally, that sorcerers are the ones who cause ash. They are commonly known as ashlayers, ashbringers, etc. It is also pretty well known that not all magickers lay ash, therefore, not all magickers are sorcerers. And by extension, they would know that there -is- a difference - even if they're not sure what that difference is.

[X-D]

And to go a bit farther on that.

In allanak it is WELL known that elementalists are gemmed. That Sorcerers are not. Even if a southerner knows nothing at all about magick, they would know that.

[jhunter]

What the two above me said. I would like to say again, and I believe others have said so in the past, the entire known world does not view magick exactly the same as the citizens of Tuluk. Some people seem to be stuck on this belief for some reason.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I happen to think it's a perfectly understandable reaction for commoners to loose their shit and run when they see a spell-caster, even if the spell-caster presents no obvious threat.

For the record, there are gemmed NPCs in Allanak outside the Elementalists' Quarter. I really don't think that people would "lose their shit and run" every time they pass a gemmed mage in the bazaar, because if those NPCs are any indication, then it happens all the time in the life of an average Allanaki.

[spawnloser]

So... wait... hold on.  You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there?  Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant.  (Read the room descriptions people.)  And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to?  That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.

It was never their explicit function, but it was their effective function for a long time, and it worked well. That room appeared after the big announcement of 2006, even, when we'd been told no more building. #$%*!

Effective function?  I maintain that it was a function those CHARACTERS took on themselves.  Even after the internal room was added and the downstairs became unpleasant, I've seen vivaduans that still take on that role.  I see no problem.

[Spoon]

Actually your average commoner *Allanak* citizen would definitely know the difference. They have an entire quarter dedicated to the elementalist temples.

The average Tuluki would probably not only not know the difference, but wouldn't care whether or not there is one. The average Tuluki commoner citizen would fear/loathe/hate all magicks equally, because all magicks are equally illegal in Tuluk.

Elsewhere, people might, or might not know, depending on the kind of exposure they've had to the different types.

It is known pretty universally, that sorcerers are the ones who cause ash. They are commonly known as ashlayers, ashbringers, etc. It is also pretty well known that not all magickers lay ash, therefore, not all magickers are sorcerers. And by extension, they would know that there -is- a difference - even if they're not sure what that difference is.

I generally have my Allanakki citizens mostly refer to elementalists by their 'correct' names like Rukkian or Krathi. I like it because it adds to the identity of those characters. As for people from other places, I get creative. Flame-spewing hell-wiggler, for example.

[Salt Merchant]

I see no problem.

Maybe you see no problem, but gatherings in the Vivaduan temple are far, far less frequent than they used to be. That's a simple, irrefutable fact. Whether or not you think it would be unfair to remove or change that room, that's the effect that putting it in has had on the gemmed experience.

You point out that the temple proper has an unpleasant environment. That's true. It's just another factor contributing to a lack of community and social choice for the gemmed.

I'd say another issue is that Oash divides the gemmed community even further. The Oashi mages tend to be aloof of (or even hostile/suspicious toward) non-Oashi mages. They have other places to be than the Elementalist's Quarter. Also, I believe it's common knowledge that Oash destroyed the Council, again removing a vehicle of interaction between gemmed.

It's like every change has been made with the intent of isolating independent gemmed as much as possible. And all of these are relatively recent.

EDIT: Maybe people would say the solution is to go join Oash then. However, they don't take non-human or semi-human mages, and often they don't even take human applicants (reason unknown). Nor does everyone want to join that particular situation either.

EDIT: By the way, this is not a complaint. I'm resigned now to the gemmed being mainly suitable to casual play. It's just interesting to dissect the problem.

[Lizzie]

I never really thought that people -not- hanging out in the vivaduan temple -was- a problem in the first place. In fact, just the opposite: I never understood why any krathi would -want- to hang out in the vivaduan temple. Or elkrans. or even Drovians for that matter. I don't understand why vivaduans would -want- krathis or elkrans in their temple. It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion. There are some elements that might naturally be drawn together, or work well together, or at least, not be repulsed by the other. There are elements that are naturally repulsed by each other. To even consider that they should all hang out in the same temple of one of those elements is just silly and if they're not doing it currently, I'm glad to hear it.

[jriley]

Actually your average commoner *Allanak* citizen would definitely know the difference. They have an entire quarter dedicated to the elementalist temples.

The average Tuluki would probably not only not know the difference, but wouldn't care whether or not there is one. The average Tuluki commoner citizen would fear/loathe/hate all magicks equally, because all magicks are equally illegal in Tuluk.

Elsewhere, people might, or might not know, depending on the kind of exposure they've had to the different types.

It is known pretty universally, that sorcerers are the ones who cause ash. They are commonly known as ashlayers, ashbringers, etc. It is also pretty well known that not all magickers lay ash, therefore, not all magickers are sorcerers. And by extension, they would know that there -is- a difference - even if they're not sure what that difference is.

I think you and I disagree on the specifics, but we do agree that not all of our characters are intimately familiar with the magic system. 

However, I think you're mistaken that Northerners dislike magic because it's illegal.  They dislike magic because it melts babies. 

Stealing is legal in the North but that doesn't mean they like being robbed.  They hate that to.  Commoners dislike all magic because as far as they know, all magic melts babies.

For the record, there are gemmed NPCs in Allanak outside the Elementalists' Quarter. I really don't think that people would "lose their shit and run" every time they pass a gemmed mage in the bazaar, because if those NPCs are any indication, then it happens all the time in the life of an average Allanaki.

Fair enough.  I'm not saying that all characters run every time that they see a magicker.  Rather, I'm saying that your character would understand if one of their friends ran at the mere presence of a magicker.  After all, you feel like running but you're too disciplined to do it. 


***
Back to the original topic, I think that there is a fairly easy way for most characters to develop the discipline to interact with spell-casters in a dignified way.  Why not join one of the Major Houses?  My guess is that if you served in one of the Merchant Houses or in House Borsail or something, you'd not only have semi-frequent interaction with gemmers (if only as customers if not clanmates) but also you'd log frequent travel, as well as significant interaction with educated people.  I believe that these qualities would help ameliorate the problems of being an uneducated, superstitious peasant if you really didn't want to play one.  Really, a year in any of the Major Houses should be enough to encourage a cosmopolitan viewpoint.

[Akaramu]

It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion.

People naturally chose who they want to hang out with, and having one thing in common, such as working in the same job, doesn't necessarily play a huge role.

[Lizzie]

jriley, you overlooked the word "equally" from the quote you took on my post. They hate magicks *equally* because all magicks are *equally* illegal. There is no differentiation, in Tuluk, between one type of magicks or another. They are all EQUALLY illegal and therefore EQUALLY hated/feared.

I never said, or implied, or hinted that the reason they were feared, was that it was illegal. That would be silly.

[Salt Merchant]

It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion.

People naturally chose who they want to hang out with, and having one thing in common, such as working in the same job, doesn't necessarily play a huge role.

People choose their friends from among those who are willing to be friendly.

Take the population of Allanak. Subtract basically everyone except the gemmed. Who is left?

Often a gemmed can only find friends among the gemmed.

[Lizzie]

I'm not talking about being friendly with another gemmed. I'm talking about a humanoid electrode or flaming torch going to hang out in a place built for humanoid water puddles. Whether or not they'd be friends is not the issue. Whether or not they'd hang out together specifically in the Vivaduan temple, is.

It is relevant to the topic which is, "how does my character deal with magick?" My Elkran, will not deal with a vivaduan, in the vivaduan temple, unless my Elkran has some dire need to be in that specific temple. My Vivaduan, would not make efforts to welcome a Krathi in the temple, unless that Krathi had specific need of a Vivaduan's services. If my Vivaduan was pals with a Krathi, there are plenty of "element-neutral" places for them to hang out together. Same as my Elkran would deal with a Vivaduan who was a buddy.

[Marauder Moe]

It is relevant to the topic which is, "how does my character deal with magick?" My Elkran, will not deal with a vivaduan, in the vivaduan temple, unless my Elkran has some dire need to be in that specific temple. My Vivaduan, would not make efforts to welcome a Krathi in the temple, unless that Krathi had specific need of a Vivaduan's services. If my Vivaduan was pals with a Krathi, there are plenty of "element-neutral" places for them to hang out together. Same as my Elkran would deal with a Vivaduan who was a buddy.

But other people are allowed to play their characters differently, right?

[LoD]

It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion.

People naturally chose who they want to hang out with, and having one thing in common, such as working in the same job, doesn't necessarily play a huge role.

Actually, people frequently make friends through chance and easy acquaintances rather than choice.  You almost always meet someone because you share common ground, whether that be colleagues at a workplace, a circle of friends, people who share your hobby, or neighbors that live next door.  Very rarely do people actively pursue someone who is not their friend and make an effort to befriend them without first being introduced through one of these common social circles.

That would make it fairly common and logical for Allanaki elementalists, whom have more in common with one another through geography, persecution, and innate magickal ability than they do with any mundane, to more easily form relationships with one another over and above mundanes.

-LoD

[Akaramu]

That would make it fairly common and logical for Allanaki elementalists, whom have more in common with one another through geography, persecution, and innate magickal ability than they do with any mundane, to more easily form relationships with one another over and above mundanes.

-LoD

Of course, but I am argueing against the viewpoint that all gemmed are expected to be pals and should hang out in the Vivaduan temple. Some gemmed might be as racist with the gem as they were without it, and refuse to hang out with halfbreeds and elves still, gem or not. Or they simply don't like people. Or they are too busy with out of city stuff to socialize in Allanak. Or they prefer the company of rogue mages. Or...

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think all gemmers should be pals, but I think the vast majority of a gemmer's friends will be other gemmers.