Apartment Security, Burglars, and Tresspassing

[Sephiroto]

Due to the issues we've had with people burgularizing obscene amounts of goods, or very large objects, I've been trying to think of a way we can try to limit burgulars code-wise to steal in a more realistic manner without jeopordizing the fledgelings of the class.  Here's what I've come up with.  The idea is pretty rough, but I'm hoping someone might take interest in it and try to refine or expand it.

What changes to make? Set apartment rent in teirs, based on quality of the complex and the amount of security provided.  The higher the rent, the more security.  Conversely, the lowest teirs of apartments cost little to rent but have no security at all.  Cheap and easily replaced attendants who stand watch in the halls are easier to replace than broken locks, or ones that would need to be replaced due to lost/stolen keys, so this should be cost-effective for management.

Why do this?  With this method, unpracticed burglars would still have ample apartments without security to rove for goods and easy locks to try to pick.  There's really no reason to store thousands of coins worth of goods in an apartment that costs only 200-300 coins a month to rent anyway.  The security of the more expensive apartments would serve to help protect the belongings of the renters while posing ample risk for would-be burglars.  Risk vs. payoff.  This gives added security to the players while allowing burglars to progress their class skills without undue expense of lost picks on super hard doors or risk of being caught...at least until attempting to breech more expensive housings.

What do attendants/security guards look for?  Appartment attendants (VNPC's and NPC's) are familiar with all the renters and sub-renters.  Whenever guests visit the apartments a renter or sub-renter needs to check them in at the front desk.  After they leave the apartment their priveledges to visit are removed.  Sneakies can get past attendance, but there would be ranges of penalties (depending on how high rent is) due to directed attempts to keep eyes for all visitors and recognize tresspassers.  Since encumberance SHOULD be detrimental to sneaking, relistic burgularism is reinforced instead of repeated visits, complete clean-outs, or stilling heavy and obvious amounts of loot.

What happens if an attendant spots someone without permanant or temporary access?  Attendants who spot people without proper access immediately notify the militia and an armed guard at the door may or may not be allowed to use deadly force (mercy on) to apprehend tresspassers.  Nosave arrest will keep you safe.  Tresspassers are arrested and their belongings are inventoried and will be thrown in prison for "tresspassing" or "suspected burgulary", but get out of jail in about the same amount of time for other minor crimes like theft.  A script logs the PC's full inventory (inv,equipment, cointainers) somewhere in MUD as an IC board where Templars can view all persons arrested for tresspassing and the items they had for 7 RL days.  After 7 days, the criminals and items fall off the list.

What happens if my apartment is broken into?  Report what was stolen to the templarate in a timely manner.  If a criminal was arrested then everything they had would have been inventoried.  The templars can then choose the action they want to take.  Charge the victim a fee to get the items back?  Sure!  Fine the burglar?  Sure!  Cut burglar's fingers off?  Sure!  Allow the burglar to bribe you and tell the victim there's no evidence of a crime?  Absolutely!

The only potential abuse of this code change that I can forsee would be if criminals who who perma or temporary access are the ones doing the burgularizing.  It gets a little sketchy here, but I'm imagining that if apartments are being burglarized and there are no criminals found, then the templars may have some right to search an apartment building.  In the very worst case scenario, things are no different than they are with the code now.  Or, you could always hire a burglar to break into your neighbor's apartment to see if they have any of your shit!!!

What changes to the code would this require?  Controlled access to some apartments so that NOBODY can sneak in/out of the main foyer (Use gates here?).  Scripts to log belongings of the arrested.  Modifcation to the crim code for a new type of crime.  New crim code in apartment buildings.  Flags to allow tempoarary access to visitors.

What do you all think?

[Gunnerblaster]

I think I once suggested (or someone else did) having an NPC guard strolling the hallways of certain expensive apartments. Seems a pretty easy coding tweak to make the guard wander the hallways every few minutes. If someone tries anything illegal (ie. picking a lock), if he is in sight - The burglar gets crim-flagged and the guards'll gank him when he comes into sight. Since the NPC guards aren't codedly militia, themselves, I think it would be better if they didn't try killing the PC in question since it might, in turn, get them killed.

[Sinna]

I think this is great.  I love playing the sneak burglar type and think that these changes are excellent and maybe we can make more.  Increasing security will convince people to leave more stuff in their apartments which make the haul for the occasional hit so much better.  This increases fun for all.

Additionally, (and probably unrealistically - haven't thought this out yet) somehow limiting the burglar's hits would be useful.  Allow them to "grind up" as it were, but never (through _real_ guild structures that enforce penalties on loners and people who break the rules like - assassination) make real hits until given the ok.

While I like this idea (and possibly this is the way I would run a certain awesome gang) I doubt it would really work.  Then again...*scratches down some ideas*.

+1  

[Agent_137]

i'm always concerned good ideas that don't generate much discussion because most people agree with them will get overlooked because it's not a 20 page long attention grabbing thread.

I wonder how aggressively do the immortals read the boards. When an immortal posts on an idea thread, i'm usually curious if it's just the luck of the draw, or some hidden immortal policy.

anyway, yea, seph. sounds fun.

[Cavaticus]

We're always watching.

If an immortal thinks an idea is worth pursuing we'll bring it up on our own forums for further discussion. We don't often post in idea threads because posts are so often taken as promises for future action or are otherwise misconstrued in some way.

[Cutthroat]

It seems like a good idea to me. Perhaps complicated, but something that could be achieved in steps.

Additionally, I've always wanted to see a shift away from 'pick' being the primary way burglaries go. Most burglaries IRL don't involve the craftiness/difficulty of picking the lock to a door. Instead, they use easily accessible openings like windows. I would rather see windows/balconies that can be climbed into. This would also make heavier things or large amount of things less appealing to steal, because it will be difficult to carry it all on the way down. However, it would probably take too much room-changing for the current game.

[jcarter]

Due to the issues we've had with people burgularizing obscene amounts of goods, or very large objects, I've been trying to think of a way we can try to limit burgulars code-wise to steal in a more realistic manner without jeopordizing the fledgelings of the class.  Here's what I've come up with.  The idea is pretty rough, but I'm hoping someone might take interest in it and try to refine or expand it.

What issues have we had? All I've seen so far is people saying 'burglars can abusse this' and the standard snowball effect that happens with the GDB when a topic like this comes up. I really, really doubt this is as big of an issue as people are making it to be. There's also the request tool which can be used to send a complaint in, if people feel like there's some poor play/abuse going on.

There's plenty of IC recourse that can be taken against burglars, and the ones that live longer than a couple of days can be tracked down and dealt with through IC means. For the most part, the templarate and Militia, as a whole, likely aren't going to give two shits about Joe Schmoe commoner getting his set of nice linen clothes stolen from his apartment. If you ARE someone important enough for the law to care, or have something important enough stolen, then you certainly have your IC recourse available to you. Besides, there's already impenetrable fortresses of loot storage that no burglar could codedly rip off without serious twinking/ignoring the game world: clan compounds. We don't need more of those.

The game doesn't need code to solve the problem. It needs more plotting, interaction, schemes, and backroom meetings.

[Sephiroto]

[The game doesn't need code to solve the problem. It needs more plotting, interaction, schemes, and backroom meetings.

Unlike you, I feel that PC's are poorly equipped to deal with this sort of thing through IC means right now.  There are a few options one has ICly, and without incorporating NPC/VNPC witnesses, there is rarely any evidence to go by.  Eye-witnesses are the next best thing to video cameras, but the current code limitations severely limit the ability of those engaged in these sneaky activities to get caught.

That is why I so strongly advocate a system of code changes that allows PC's to deal with potential issues in game, rather than having us put in requests or mail immortals every time a vast majority of our belongings vanish from our apartments?  Automation isn't always a bad thing.  Sure, its a lot of work to make the machine work, but when it runs well it makes life is better.  And, frankly, I'd never want to send in a request to the staff that regarded theft unless it was very blatant that some bug in the code was abused.  The staff members of our game have more important things to oversee, like building, writing, and developing new code, rather than spending time to investigate who picked the locks of 75% of a building's apartments and stole 60kilos worth of loot.

In no way is this a suggestion that we make apartments impenetrable fortresses or personal warehouses.  What it is, is an initiative to see grades of difficulty for burglars, risk vs. reward for them, greater peace of mind for wealthier apartment renters, and the empowering of players with coded tools that allow us to solve some of our problems in game rather than relying on the adjudication, availability, and patience of staff members.  Handling business IC sounds like it might involve a lot of plotting, interaction, schemes, and backroom meetings, don't you think?

One of the reasons I'm making this suggestion, and so many others on the Code Board, is because all the changes that staff makes now can be used toward developing a kick-ass 2.Arm.  It is up to them whether or not they use certain ideas we give and how they go about implementing them finally, but the what we discuss here can be fuel for them.

..I think I lost track where I was going.  *shakes his head clear*

[Aaron Goulet]

I rather like your proposal there, buddy.  The only thing I would suggest is that people aren't automatically incriminated if they try to walk past the doorman/doorwoman.  Sometimes, it's just an honest case of, "Well, the person I'm visiting accidentally went ahead without me, so I'm gonna follow him/her."  It could also prove detrimental to people who are prone to taking wrong turns (like me, when I'm tired), or newbies who are just trying to get a feel for their city of choice.

Deliberate attempts to pass a doorman/doorwoman, however?  That's a whole different story.  If someone gets caught attempting to sneak or run past one of these people, that's pretty much the in-game equivalent to someone catching your hand in their pocket, and should result in incrimination, in my opinion.

The rest looks good to me.  I like the suggestion of varying security based on the rent your character is paying for his/her pad, both from the perspective of a burglar and a tenant.  It feels realistic to me.

[Sinna]

We're always watching.

Btw - this reminds me as a sneak char in the middle of stealing furniture and such (via secret ways that made sense to me) an immortal paged me and said something to the effect of "Exactly how are you carrying that HUGE FULL bookcase?"

So, yeah, they do watch.   

[mansa]

You could have an NPC soldier wander the halls of the more expensive places.

You could have a failed picklock attempt trigger a wanted flag.

You could have a picklock attempt trigger a wanted flag, if an NPC soldier was in the same room.

[hyzhenhok]

3 step solution that is probably the most reasonable IMO:

1. Link sleight of hand to pick, or enable picking while stealthed
2. Make picking a crim-flaggable offense
3. Give more expensive apartments the populated tag in their hallways, with the room desc indicating that yes, there are virtual guards/landlords/whatever that might catch you.

[jmordetsky]

You could have an NPC soldier wander the halls of the more expensive places.

You could have a failed picklock attempt trigger a wanted flag.

You could have a picklock attempt trigger a wanted flag, if an NPC soldier was in the same room.

What Mansa said - more NPCs patrolling in general and into apt buildings. If you pick within visibility of a soldier, crim-flag.

Also - I think the problem is bigger then burglars. I still feel with the "night time wanted code" change being a criminal is now as easy as being a hunter.

I feel very strongly about: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34921.0.html

[jcarter]

Unlike you, I feel that PC's are poorly equipped to deal with this sort of thing through IC means right now.  There are a few options one has ICly, and without incorporating NPC/VNPC witnesses, there is rarely any evidence to go by.  Eye-witnesses are the next best thing to video cameras, but the current code limitations severely limit the ability of those engaged in these sneaky activities to get caught.

PCs are much better to deal with it than code. Burglars leave a trail: buying picks, trying to fence stolen goods, needing a place to rest/buddies to count on, bragging, and so on and so forth. Furthermore, it doesn't really matter whether you kill the right criminal or not: just grab someone you think is guilty, execute them, and put out the word. There's your burglar deterrent.

And, frankly, I'd never want to send in a request to the staff that regarded theft unless it was very blatant that some bug in the code was abused.  The staff members of our game have more important things to oversee, like building, writing, and developing new code, rather than spending time to investigate who picked the locks of 75% of a building's apartments and stole 60kilos worth of loot.

If you think it's abuse, then send in a complaint. The staff can prioritize and decide what is worth investigation and what isn't themselves. If everyone felt the same, the only way abuses would be solved is by a staff member noticing and catching the person in the act. The complaint tool is there for a reason.

In no way is this a suggestion that we make apartments impenetrable fortresses or personal warehouses.  What it is, is an initiative to see grades of difficulty for burglars, risk vs. reward for them, greater peace of mind for wealthier apartment renters, and the empowering of players with coded tools that allow us to solve some of our problems in game rather than relying on the adjudication, availability, and patience of staff members. 

There are grades of difficulty for a burglar. Covering your ass and minimizing that trail you leave behind is one. Knowing which places are worth going after and which ones aren't. Finding out who lives where, and then watching for them to show up at the bar so you know you have the opportunity to break into their place. Placating the templarate and Militia. Finding a fence, or some way to leave less of a trail. And so on, and so forth. Burglary is much, MUCH more than just pick lock, enter apartment, get loot.

You have tools in place to fix the situation: start making shady contacts, start finding out what happened, start making your problem other people's problem. Don't want to do all that? Then I guess your stuff wasn't worth that much to you. I don't know how you think staff fit into cracking the case of who broke into your apartment: there's no need for it. You just have to put the time and effort into it.

Handling business IC sounds like it might involve a lot of plotting, interaction, schemes, and backroom meetings, don't you think?

Yes, which is exactly why I'm saying no, don't put in automated burglar regulation code.

[Aaron Goulet]

PCs are much better to deal with it than code. Burglars leave a trail: buying picks, trying to fence stolen goods, needing a place to rest/buddies to count on, bragging, and so on and so forth.

Two of the things you mention involve NPCs, one can be done alone, and the rest are optional.  The only trail most burglars leave is an unlocked door and an empty room.

[marko]

I'd be a supporting of the ability to 'upgrade' one's apartment with security features such as a guard animal or patrolling NPC security.

Having played all sides of the coin when it comes to apartments my thought is that they are ridiculously easy to break into.  Having tried to catch "burglars" doing the stealing I also know that it is ridiculously hard to catch a burglar.  Essentially, you need to monitor the apartment 24/7 to catch when they are doing the break-in.  Even then, it is done so quickly that you need to be at the computer and in the Armageddon window to be able to react in time.

As for tracking down the activities of a burglar after the fact - it's nice in theory but it is very possible to have absolutely no "IC" trail at all unless you somehow manage to find your goods for sale at an NPC vendor and get that vendor animated.  Even then, the chance that the imms would know who sold the item initially are slim to none.

[Chettaman]

You could have an NPC soldier wander the halls of the more expensive places.

You could have a failed picklock attempt trigger a wanted flag.

You could have a picklock attempt trigger a wanted flag, if an NPC soldier was in the same room.

Definately have it trigger a wanted flag if a soldier is in the same room.
Also. Pick-locking should make an echo on both sides of the door. for low skill levels and failed attempts.

[Twilight]

Sounds like the immortal event logs are not robust enough.

[jhunter]

All good ideas save for I don't think a failed pick should trigger a wanted flag all the time. Only if there is an npc in the same room or if there are supposed to be vnpcs in said room.

[valeria]

I agree with the failed pick not triggering a wanted flag ALL of the time.  If someone is just looking up a hallway, who's to say you're not just dicking around with your key?  Especially if your body is fairly close to the door handle.

[LauraMars]

I've always thought it pretty ridiculous that burglars can just walk out the front door with solid obsidian couches if they want.

[solera]

Yes, I like the idea of the desk people being able to do something about unauthorised people they see wandering past trying to look like they belong.
And a bit of a NPC presence to boost the vpnc's that often are the only people in the buildings.  Not that most vpc's would care anyway, as long as it wasn't their door.
Hate the idea of failed pick triggering anything though.

If everyone plays on peak, then PC interaction is the answer, but they don't.

[Lizzie]

I've always thought it pretty ridiculous that burglars can just walk out the front door with solid obsidian couches if they want.

I have never seen anyone walk in, or out, of a building, or on the street, with a solid obsidian couch. I've seen one for sale but I've never seen anyone make any attempt to buy one..and for that matter, I don't recall ever renting an apartment that even had one in it.

I think it isn't likely that any burglar -would- ever walk out of the door stealing a couch. Mostly because they're too heavy. Partly because, the risk of being stuck walking around with a couch for 4 RL days until the NPC merchant can afford to buy it from you is just way too high.

[Blackisback]

Just putting this out there, but how awesome would it be if you could train a gortok to guard your apartment? It'd just lay there, resting all day. Maybe poop a few times. Then, when the unsuspecting twink burglar enters your apartment, well, he's in for a surprise. Gortoks...guardtoks?

[BlackMagic0]

I've always thought it pretty ridiculous that burglars can just walk out the front door with solid obsidian couches if they want.

I have never seen anyone walk in, or out, of a building, or on the street, with a solid obsidian couch. I've seen one for sale but I've never seen anyone make any attempt to buy one..and for that matter, I don't recall ever renting an apartment that even had one in it.

I think it isn't likely that any burglar -would- ever walk out of the door stealing a couch. Mostly because they're too heavy. Partly because, the risk of being stuck walking around with a couch for 4 RL days until the NPC merchant can afford to buy it from you is just way too high.

I've seen it.
I've seen burglars take tables, chairs, beds, couches, hammocks, and such.

And simply sell them or then put them in their own apartment.

I've had character who robbed people after burglars left, since the door was open and they lived next door. And I dragged things out. >.>