Could a ranger's campfire designate a temporary quit room?

[FantasyWriter]

IMHO: The best way to fix this would be to add more quit room (I don't think these should be "save" rooms, either).

[Pantoufle]

Quitting is an OOC action.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Quitting is an OOC action.

Precisely.

And that's why I think you should be able to do it from anywhere.

[jmordetsky]

Quitting is an OOC action.

Precisely.

And that's why I think you should be able to do it from anywhere.

Yar!

For me it's a big issue - because without it I can't just casually play arm. It's like I have marital arguments because my wife needs me to go somewhere but I'm stuck in a storm 3 f-ing rooms from a wagon I want to quit in but I can't get there. So I'm like - looks like you have to wait. Great. So, I don't even log in unless I know have 3 hours to burn, which if you are an big person with responsibilities isn't all that often.

Then there's the usual arguments - wish up, play a ranger etc. None of which hold water. Doc me 50% of my health, stam, hunger, thirst and let me quit. When I log back in I pick up my RP as though I've been suffering in a storm for a few days. The game goes on wonderfully.

Oh yea, and make it a skill

[Zephy]

I love this idea.

[Morgenes]

Quitting is an OOC action.

Precisely.

And that's why I think you should be able to do it from anywhere.

Yar!

For me it's a big issue - because without it I can't just casually play arm. It's like I have marital arguments because my wife needs me to go somewhere but I'm stuck in a storm 3 f-ing rooms from a wagon I want to quit in but I can't get there. So I'm like - looks like you have to wait. Great. So, I don't even log in unless I know have 3 hours to burn, which if you are an big person with responsibilities isn't all that often.

Then there's the usual arguments - wish up, play a ranger etc. None of which hold water. Doc me 50% of my health, stam, hunger, thirst and let me quit. When I log back in I pick up my RP as though I've been suffering in a storm for a few days. The game goes on wonderfully.

Oh yea, and make it a skill

don't the most recent changes to storm navigation pretty well invalidate the 'three rooms away from a quit safe' argument?

[eska]

some people have highly unpredictable schedules that maay require them to quit at a moment`s notice.


Wasn`t there a camp idea that was like a delayed quit command, where it would take about a rl minute for you to quit?

Code Select Expand

wish all Sorry, I have to logout immediately. Can you please log me out?
You may wait for a little while (not so long most of the time), but works all the time.. 

[Agent_137]

wishing up is not an acceptable solution when the problem occurs every play time.

[AmandaGreathouse]

It helps to a degree, Morg, although that helps more with the being able to get around in game. For people who don't have the whole map of the known world (many don't, I admit I had one for a couple months in '08, before we switched computers), or new players, or players who haven't thoroughly explored and memorized every quit spot in the wilds, quitting out is still a problem at times. Because you might well be able to move the X rooms to a quit room (and in some cases, I've seen it be more than 20-30 rooms, or an entire AREA with no quit rooms) without getting lost, that doesn't mean you'll have the stamina to do so (sandstorm regen), or the time to do so (OOC emergency/urgent situation/etc). I've explored the wilderness on Arm extensively, and I still don't know what people mean by 'not having a room that's more than 10 rooms from a quit room'.

While I like the idea that it helps people get around, it doesn't actually touch the problem of not being able to log out when one needs to. (And I say this as a fan, though I still think scavengers should have it, perhaps even have "In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer," mean direction sense rather than what it alludes to now.)

[jmordetsky]

don't the most recent changes to storm navigation pretty well invalidate the 'three rooms away from a quit safe' argument?

They certainly do! But only if you have the skill, yea? (when I apped my current I couldn't know they were going in).

But - that said if I had the skill - I think it's a separate issue from navigation. For example - I've found myself in this situation recently and the skies were completely clear. This character had ridden south from Luirs with the intention of doing something in the salt flats.

Getting through the storms were brutal, but when I got far enough south things cleared up and I was resting my mount when the wife came home. She needed help with something for school and I'm sitting there very far away from any quit room that I know of with an exhausted mount. It was 30-40 minutes (i think?) before it was rested enough for me to feel comfortable enough that I could get back and avoid any baddies if I need to.  Needless to say - the wife is very forgiving, but she was not pleased .

Unfortunately - this happens to me *all* the time. Sometimes it's work and a server goes down, sometimes it's a phone call cuz my dad's computer stopped working , it's just life. I can't imagine being able to play if you have kids .  It is huge pain in the ass to get out of the game if you're not a ranger and you decide to venture out of a city. I'm all for penalties for quitting in the desert- harsh, terrible penalties. Bring them on, but man - it's game. I should be able to stop playing when I want to stop and start playing again later. Rangers are the only class that has this magickal ability. I put it in the same category as storm nav. It is one of the fuzzy categories of abilities that should arguably be available to all at varying levels of effectiveness.

In terms of quit rooms in general - they's are largely OOC as well. Like - I know a bunch of them, because I've been playing forever. But, is that fair? That if I happen to be south of CITY A I can get out of game, but some other dude who has only been playing for a few weeks has no idea and is totally f-ed? Edit: And it's not like my character knows them - *I* know them because of old maps I've made.

My 2 sids. Quitting would be the next giant leap for me in playability. Storm nav is the first . The Ranger Contingent probably wants to kill me right now .

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree. But I never really make rangers.

[jmordetsky]

Here is quick mock up of what I'm thinking:

Code Select Expand



*****Scenario 1 - Ranger makes a quit room for a warrior

The brown-haired man is here.
The black-haired man is here.

The brown-haired man says, "I'm not feeling so good."
The brown-haired man OOCs: "I actually have to run, sorry dude."

> say (to ~brown) No worries, let's camp out here. Find my mind when you are feeling better.

> make camp

You begin making a camp.

[Time passes]

You make a crude, yet functional camp.

> look

In the Desert [N S E W]

It's really dry here. There's a bunch of sand.

A makeshift camp has been set up here.

>

The brown-haired man says, "Okay. Thanks man."

The brown-haired man has departed Zalanthas. [Brown quits with no penalty or lessened penalty based on Black's skill]





*****Scenario 1 - Warrior tries to quit (he has no, or low Desert Quit skill)

The brown-haired man is here.
The black-haired man is here.

[ Something OOC comes up.]

80/80 80/80> say "I'm not feeling so good."
The brown-haired man says, "I'm not feeling so good."

80/80 80/80> ooc I actually have to run, sorry dude.
The brown-haired man OOCs: "I actually have to run, sorry dude."

80/80 80/80>

The black-haired man says, "Okay, rest here - I'll meet you back in Luirs tomorrow. Find my mind if you need help."

80/80 80/80> say Got it. See you then.
The brown-haired man says, "Got it. See you then."

The black-haired man walks east.

80/80 80/80> make camp

[time passes]

The camp you create will barely support your life.

80/80 80/80> think Well, that going to have to do.

80/80 80/80> Quit

Goodbye!

[Comes back a few hours later after OOC issue is handled

> E (enter zalanthas)

Your time in the desert has caused you to suffer.

40/80 40/80> stat

You are very hungry.
You are very thirsty.

> Think Shit, I need to find *real* shelter. I'm in a bad way.



I'd be happy enough without the "make camp" as well. Just to be able to quit would be nice enough.

[Pantoufle]

Why force people to wait for a skill delay in order to orchestrate an OOC command? Not to be snarky, but would it be any different if there were a delay for the help files?

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Unfortunately - this happens to me *all* the time. Sometimes it's work and a server goes down, sometimes it's a phone call cuz my dad's computer stopped working , it's just life. I can't imagine being able to play if you have kids .  It is huge pain in the ass to get out of the game if you're not a ranger and you decide to venture out of a city. I'm all for penalties for quitting in the desert- harsh, terrible penalties. Bring them on, but man - it's game. I should be able to stop playing when I want to stop and start playing again later. Rangers are the only class that has this magickal ability. I put it in the same category as storm nav. It is one of the fuzzy categories of abilities that should arguably be available to all at varying levels of effectiveness.

I agree 100%.  And I love me the rangers.

I would not agree if Armageddon was not a permadeath game.

[jmordetsky]

Why force people to wait for a skill delay in order to orchestrate an OOC command? Not to be snarky, but would it be any different if there were a delay for the help files?

I guess mostly because when characters run away from my raiders and auto-magically poof and disappear sort of irritates me. At least with a delay and a temporary camp marker I'd know they poofed. It wouldn't make it less lame but....at least it's something. The delay I'm thinking about is the same delay as craft. Like maybe 30-60 seconds. Perhaps the "quit" could occur directly after you made camp like > make camp quit so you didn't have to wait around if you wanted to bolt.

It would also stop people from quitting away from an oncoming carru or something (which is lame and I've seen rangers do it).

[mansa]

In my opinion,

It doesn't matter which class / skills you have, when you need to quit the game, you should be able to stop playing.  Forcing people to find a quit zone to do an Out-Of-Character action is harmful to new players, as it gives them another thing to learn in the huge list of thousand things to learn to play the game.  (When we shorten that dreaded list, more players will play)


A good example was the 20 second countdown to quit that WoW has/had.


When you want to meet up with people, you go to the bars/clan halls/bazaar.  You don't need to make a specific quit zone in order to create an artificial "hangout" zone.  People will always and naturally go to places where other people are, it's human nature.

If you're considering the IC actions to quiting, please stop right there.  There's no need to justify anything about deserts, campfires, animals, food, coins, etc.  When you currently quit, none of those things matter.  Why are you trying to make it matter now?

[jmordetsky]

In my opinion,

It doesn't matter which class / skills you have, when you need to quit the game, you should be able to stop playing.  Forcing people to find a quit zone to do an Out-Of-Character action is harmful to new players, as it gives them another thing to learn in the huge list of thousand things to learn to play the game.  (When we shorten that dreaded list, more players will play)


A good example was the 20 second countdown to quit that WoW has/had.


When you want to meet up with people, you go to the bars/clan halls/bazaar.  You don't need to make a specific quit zone in order to create an artificial "hangout" zone.  People will always and naturally go to places where other people are, it's human nature.

If you're considering the IC actions to quiting, please stop right there.  There's no need to justify anything about deserts, campfires, animals, food, coins, etc.  When you currently quit, none of those things matter.  Why are you trying to make it matter now?

My feelings on the matter is that though quitting is an OOC action, it is essentially the act of you (the player) oocly leaving the game and while your character becomes a virtual npc and continues to live your "in-game" life until you log in again and become a person of note and actively participate in the story.

If you quit out in the city, your pay continues, your rent continues, in theory you need to eat and drink (though we assume that is virtual for playability), but all in all while you live in the city you can go about a (relatively) normal, healthy life as a virtual city dweller with no additional skills required.

However, living in the desert as a VNPC is another matter entirely. If you leave a city and venture out into the wastes, you need to be prepared and savvy and skilled. We don't want to lose that, otherwise the desert loses some of it's teeth. A VNPC without the right skills and without proper shelter (read: a quit room) living in the wastes  is going to eventually die and if you decide to become a VNPC in this environment, my personal opinion is that we should treat this accordingly while attempting to maintain playability.

The idea that you cannot quit in the wastes right now in some ways benefits the game. You have to plan a desert trip. Non-rangers are more careful about the desert. They hire guides, escorts etc. If anyone could waltz into the wastes and quit out at will without penalty I feel we've lost something in Arm that is very important. The desert would have lost some a large piece of what makes it scary and dangerous. It is important that we continue to cultivate a healthy respect for dangers that lie in the desert and you ability to get lost, stranded and left drying on a dune.

As much as I am adamantly *for* the ability to quit the game when and where I want - if I was able to do this without consequence with lets say - a warrior/guard - I feel we have certainly lost something that makes the game what it is. The ability to quit, as a skill, with penalties levied on the unskilled is the best way to balance realism and a healthy respect for the dangers of the Zalanthan wilds with playability.

[Thunkkin]

I call it the "Thac0 Effect."  We become so accustomed to certain things that they become self-evident.  When they are changed, it seems CRAZY.  And then a little while later, we look back, scratch our heads, and say, "Why did we take that for granted?"  Such as, "Only rangers could skin?  Really?"

That said, I feel ambivalent about being able to quit anywhere.  The Quit restriction is an OOC game mechanism that creates danger and if it is removed there needs to be a compensatory mechanism (IC or OOC) to take its place.  We dislike it because it is inconvenient and creates IC danger through OOC restrictions.  So, any solution needs to allow convenience (easier quitting) but also maintain IC danger through IC means.  The wastes need to feel dangerous because they're the wastes - not just because they're full of gith, but also because of the environmental dangers.

Delay-timers solve the dilemma of npc/pc dangers.  If it takes you a minute or two to log out, that gives the gortoks, Soh tracking party, and the Guild time to catch up to you.  What remains is the "environment" danger.  There's needs to be heavy pressure to manage resources like mounts, stamina, food, and water.  Being able to quit out anywhere and then log back in later (possibly when friends or other resources or more easily accessed) takes much of the sting out of the wastes, in my opinion.  So, something would need to be done to compensate.

Edit: Jmordetsky nailed it.   What about quit in the desert costing water?

[jmordetsky]

Edit: Jmordetsky nailed it.   What about quit in the desert costing water?

Agree with your post as well. Re: costing water - yea definitely, but I think having it force you to be thirsty and hungry does that to an extent while still letting you make the decision to eat/drink when you log in.

The way I would justify penalties:

1) Hunger/Thirst - In cities you have access to virtual food/water, so your hunger/thirst will not increase while logged out. But in the desert, you do not and so in theory you should only be using the stores you carry on you. As a result, when you log back in your hunger/thirst levels will be adjust accordingly forcing you to take IC action.

2) Stam Drain - Same deal here. If the cities, you can go lounge at the Gaj. But in the wastes not so much. As a result, your stamina is drained accordingly.

3) Hp Drain - In theory, even though they don't in game, storm winds and exposure would start to sap your health. Also, various baddies could scurry your way forcing you to fight them off. A health drain would reflect these dangers.

My personal thoughts - your stam should halved and your hp should get halved so that you cannot recover it without sleep. Hunger and thirst should be elevated to the "very" level so that dehydration or starvation was imminent. Those penalties (for me - I realize it's subjective to some extent) would be severe enough that I would definitely think twice before logging out in the wastes without a quit room or that I would only use it when I had to.

I feel like this would prevent random folks from wandering outside without concern. My greatest fear is that merchant/jeweler noble aides can't waltz out into the salt flats and survive for months without ever having to find shelter or return to the city. If there wasn't a severe penalty this would totally be possible

[X-D]

Alright, First off, quit rooms are ALL OVER THE PLACE....I mean really, there are Maybe 3 areas where a quit room might be more then ten rooms from you, and if you are in those places and have to log off...Well, you should have planned better. You should not be there alone as a non-ranger anyway.

So, I am against giving everybody wilderness quit. BUT, if it was to happen, I think it should be at a HEAVY cost. And the type room should matter as well.

Forest, grass, scrub, 10 minute delay, log back in, 25% thirst/hunger HP/stam loss. Normal desert rooms, 15 minute delay, 50% loss, Other types, like mountain, canyons, salt flats, 20 min and 75% loss.

Otherwise, play a ranger.

[Gagula]

Alright, First off, quit rooms are ALL OVER THE PLACE....I mean really, there are Maybe 3 areas where a quit room might be more then ten rooms from you, and if you are in those places and have to log off...Well, you should have planned better. You should not be there alone as a non-ranger anyway.

Ok, so we're no more a few leagues away from a quit room.  Ok, let's say that I have reached that 2nd level of employment that allows me to go out and about from the city on my own on a patrol/resource gathering mission for my clan (I can think of at least 3 groups that use this level system).  I get out, things are going good, and oh look, my mom comes in and I have to help with the groceries.  In all the patrols i've been on, few people have told me where quit rooms are.  The fact is, most patrols don't cover quit rooms.  I know what the obvious answer is here: "clan leaders should take time to note where the quit rooms are". OK, I  can live with that one.  But what if mine hasn't?  Should I, the player be penalized?  The other route to take is providing a detailed map that says "quit rooms are here, here, here, EVERYWHERE!", but isn't that IC info?  The only way that I could see to possibly placate this is by doing a command that gives you something like: "A quit room is 3 rooms west, and 5 rooms north." But even still, what if my character was resting, and planning to return to the city?
I understand that you've been playing for a while (or forever?) and while I do respect that you have a formidable understanding of the world, did you start the game with this knowledge?  I don't think you went out and about with the general thoughts of: "Ok, quit room #134 should just be over this ridge, and, oh yes, down the valley with the wonderful desc. of carniverous plants."  I'm sorry X-D, but quitting is strictly an OOC action, and as such, should be readily available to people on an OOC schedule.
I honestly think the best solution to this is for quit to be a skill, learnable by all, mastered by few (rangers having the highest cap of course  ).

[Lizzie]

Yes, quitting -is- an ooc command to leave the game. In some games, quitting doesn't save upon exit. Meaning, when you return, you return with no equipment. No locker, no apartment, no nothing. In some games, you can type "recall" and go back to the spawn room to save your equipment in your inventory before logging out. Except, then you still have to wander all the way out to the other side of the game again when you log back in, to continue on the auto-quest that you MUST finish in order to get to level 13.

All different games have all different methods of assisting in immersion, and accommodating RL needs. Armageddon has chosen the quit-safe room vs. ranger-quit as their option. It could be a whole lot worse. You could be required to lose all your stuff when you quit, but be able to quit anywhere, like some games do. The only thing I'd like to see, is a few more quit-safe rooms. One or two -inside- the Allanak merchant gate, one more in the Red, another one in the tablelands, one in the western wastes, one in the southeast corner of Tuluk, one inside the plains gates of Tuluk, and now that the IC thing has happened, one somewhere within 10 rooms of the western Tuluk gate.

[jmordetsky]

Alright, First off, quit rooms are ALL OVER THE PLACE....I mean really, there are Maybe 3 areas where a quit room might be more then ten rooms from you, and if you are in those places and have to log off...Well, you should have planned better. You should not be there alone as a non-ranger anyway.

You say that because your an old player. Quit rooms are OOC knowledge you carry with you as a player. In terms of planning, that's OOC as well. RL events in my RL life shouldn't have a bearing on my characters life. In the example I gave Morg, my plan was sound. RL events like a server going down at work can't be planned for. You might as well tell people like me "don't play" or "don't go outside". Even if I had a ranger, it would have still be 30 minutes before I could quit.

Forest, grass, scrub, 10 minute delay, log back in, 25% thirst/hunger HP/stam loss. Normal desert rooms, 15 minute delay, 50% loss, Other types, like mountain, canyons, salt flats, 20 min and 75% loss.

Agree on penalties. But, a 10-15 minute delay would border on comical.

[X-D]

First, I don't see how that arguement even has a point, if the server goes down or my power suddenly goes out, it does not matter if I have ranger quit or not, I'm still hosed till it comes back up, and policy right now is, If an outside mud event, such as mentioned above causes your PCs death you don't get a res.  Sooo...

And that kind of delay to a non-ranger does not border on comical, it IS comical, but then I think if you are exploring or patrolling the wilderness etc with a non-ranger PC alone, that is even more comical. Many things about the game are about planning, if you fail to do so, that is your problem. Planning is anything from making sure your city PC has friends with him when he leaves the safety of the walls or making a wilderness PC to start. IE, ranger.

[jmordetsky]

if the server goes down or my power suddenly goes out

I meant a server at my job as an example of RL life things in your life coming up being OOC events and not having anything to do with RL life planning or lack there of..Not Ginka.

Planning is anything from making sure your city PC has friends with him when he leaves the safety of the walls or making a wilderness PC to start. IE, ranger.

IC planning has nothing to do with whether or not I get called away from the computer. Again, I'm all for penalties. We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not 15 minutes for any in-game command is at all reasonable.