watch/scan/listen/guard changes

[brytta.leofa]

I really wouldn't like to see the code changed such that the longer you have those skills running, the more "tired" mentally you get. But if you want "realism," then that is what you should be shooting for. Not an increased stun drop at the start of the use of the skill.

Add a hidden "mental fatigue" index that integrates effort over time to affect max stun:

Fig. 1.  A three-day hunting trip.

[Clearsighted]

Watching your surroundings for that braxat should not mean it has an easier time bopping you over the head.

You really are thinking about this all wrong.  Consider this : try reading four about four hours straight without rest and see how clear-headed you are then.  You've almost certainly done an all night study session.  What we're talking about is far more work than  reading.

Besides, a person who isn't too good at being alert actually places themselves in a more vulnerable position to get bopped on the head.  A person just going about their business not only tends to move at a faster speed but also tends to be less predictable.  Listen now affects sneaky attacks, so those spending that extra effort to be alert now have a real combat advantage.  Where there once was no real defense against sneaky attacks, now you have an advantage.  Relish in it.

I want a reasonable penalty because it's realistic.  It requires strategy to use correctly.  Too much in this game is given clean and without penalty.  If I have to take a hit with my characters until other parts of the game are set to right, then so be it.

The only other change that's needed is the way listen is broken on standing up.  It doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly close off your senses upon standing up.  This needs to be fixed.

Except for your last point about listening needing to not be broken on standing up, I disagree with you on everything else.

[Bogre]

What exactly are the changes to listen on sneaky attacks as the updates say?

Is this sneaky attacker side or sneaky attackee side, etc?

[Morgenes]

What exactly are the changes to listen on sneaky attacks as the updates say?

Is this sneaky attacker side or sneaky attackee side, etc?

It isn't specified, but if you think about where listening would be useful, you might get a clue.

[mansa]

Like sneaky attacks.

Bbbbbbbbbackstab!

[mattrious]

I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?

[Tisiphone]

I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?

You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.

[mattrious]

I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?

You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.

Actually. No, I do not need to read the thread. Thank you for pointing this out though.

[Tisiphone]

I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?

You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.

Actually. No, I do not need to read the thread. Thank you for pointing this out though.

These are not the droids you're looking for.

[mattrious]

I did not sort through the previous seven pages of posts in regards to this change. I was just wondering if it has been brought up about scanning / listening while you're in a sitting or resting type position. I think it would be very plausible to pull off these sweet maneuvers while in this prone state. What do you say?

You need to read the thread. This has been addressed.

Actually. No, I do not need to read the thread. Thank you for pointing this out though.

These are not the droids you're looking for.

You actually serve that purpose quite well.  Regardless, I am not going to wade through five or six pages of posts, that all say the same thing in regards to how much stun a certain skill is going to take. I just wanted to know if this is something that is going to be considered. You can save your smart ass remarks for your children as I'm sure they will be much more receptive to your insight than I.

[Tisiphone]

You actually serve that purpose quite well.  Regardless, I am not going to wade through five or six pages of posts, that all say the same thing in regards to how much stun a certain skill is going to take. I just wanted to know if this is something that is going to be considered. You can save your smart ass remarks for your children as I'm sure they will be much more receptive to your insight than I.

I sense much anger in this one.

Seriously though, let me clarify, so you won't get the impression that I'm being snarky.

You need to read the thread if you want to see what has been said on this matter. This has been addressed.

[Melody]

As per the recent change -

Listen cost, even maxed, for some guilds are high. Well, for my guild.

Combine it with scan, watch, and (barrier, come now, necessary!) some other skills, it is really killing.

It might be easier to just be a warrior and knock people out.

I like the change anyway. And let's not listen to Tisiphone. She's the baddie that makes life so hard for criminals guilds and ranger guild!

[FuSoYa]

I think it's odd how alot of people are commenting that they have maxxed skills... cause if I'm figuring it right they really don't know.

Brandon

[Dar]

I haven't been able to play much, but the reduced costs for scan and listen border on ridiculous, even at high levels.  Couldn't we up them both to around 5 stun loss so I actually get the impression my character is exerting himself?

As you wish

I might be wrong. It's just a theory, a small ... suspicion on my part. But reading through the coarse of this thread, aswell as the barrier thread, and the like I noticed a funny little tendency. Every time some single individual decides to take it upon himself to mention how much they dislike the new change and propose a suggestion that's even worse (No blame to themselves ofcourse, they're judging things from the knowledge of their character's perspective and stats, not the data of the whole playerbase), Morgenes is ... happy to oblige. So ... when you post 'suggestions', remember, you might be digging a hole for 'yourself'.

[Melody]

I think it's odd how alot of people are commenting that they have maxxed skills... cause if I'm figuring it right they really don't know.

Brandon

Well, one way of looking at it is that if you have around 30 playing days and some skills you have used pretty regularly, you have more or less maxed it.

Watching your success rate is another way too. Not to mention the several changes in the codes would have more or less tipped you off on your char's rank in certain skills.

Back to the code. I like it how scans and listen don't drop completely, and is instead merely turned off during combat. Very lovely, but the stun points cost is still too major. 6 stun points don't seem much, but several skills are often used together, so the stacked result is...

... scary.

[Lizzie]

Heh several skills stacked together? 6 stun loss? Try...

13 stun loss using listen and scan -only- - and you only have 89 to start with, bringing your current max total down to a whopping 76 stun.

Then..

You're walking along a dingy road in town, in a place where your character -needs- to be capable of noticing if something is suspicious in close proximity - and Templar Bobo finds your mind and demands your immediate response. Contact templar - down to 67 stun. Psi Hello Templar Bobo I'm walking right now, will find your mind again in one hour when I'm in a safer place...

Now you're down to 44 stun.
And the thing you were trying to keep an eye out for, is now standing behind you with his weighted sap up over your head....

all that, because you not only aren't THAT good with listen or scan yet, so you get the penalty of not being able to see that guy with the weighted sap, but you ALSO have an automatic 13 point stun drain for attempting to see him...which means, you're the one who gets yourself dead, just because you were trying to stay alive. For no other reason at all. JUST because you were using the available coded commands to protect yourself in the only coded way your particular character is capable of doing so.

[Melody]

Heh several skills stacked together? 6 stun loss? Try...

13 stun loss using listen and scan -only- - and you only have 89 to start with, bringing your current max total down to a whopping 76 stun.

No no, 6 stun points from listen /alone/. Then you stack in the scan stun point cost. Barrier. And some people do guard. And now you are around a grand total of 25+ stun points down.

And by the way, that is with scan/listen/barrier all maxed, too.

Now I challenge anyone who dares to pick on a moderately hard animal to hunt with severely capped stun points. Or backstab your victim. Or go sparring. Or do anything shady!

The result is that I have to stop listen/scan/barrier/anything. Wait for stun points to go up. Then do blood letting. I understand the roleplay reasons or reality reasons or whatever. I just find the penalty to be a little too evil. Still prefer the earlier version, which means a char would lose around 14 stun points while going down on some serious and shady business. It is bad enough I think.

For the light weight users on the other hand, like aides who sit in the bars. Having a 10 stun points down for listen wouldn't have hurt much at all.

[Lizzie]

I suggest that you aren't really maxed then Melody. Unless an IMM has told you, you really have no way of knowing (as FuSoYa said previously in this thread). I know I'm not maxed, and I even notice that I've improved, because yesterday I was using listen, it wore off, I turned it back on, and lost 1 point less than I lost before it fell off.

It -does- get better with improvement in the skill. Morgenes has already said he's coded it that way. I'm just saying, that it's still pretty severe, when your character is already penalized by not being "expert" at something, by not being able to make the most use of that something. And to add to the risk of consequences for not being able to make the most use of that something, you -also- get stun drain that can -very easily- mean the difference between life and death if some noob dwarf with a sap decides it's your turn for him to use as target practice.

[Morgenes]

And to add to the risk of consequences for not being able to make the most use of that something, you -also- get stun drain that can -very easily- mean the difference between life and death if some noob dwarf with a sap decides it's your turn for him to use as target practice.

You're missing the part where having these skills on gives you a chance to avoid the noob dwarf's sap.  It's a trade off, would you rather take the chance that his sap won't do that much damage if it hits you and leave the skills off?  Or do you think that one avoided sap is worth the stun cap?

[Fallstorm]

No no, 6 stun points from listen /alone/. Then you stack in the scan stun point cost. Barrier. And some people do guard. And now you are around a grand total of 25+ stun points down...  Now I challenge anyone who dares to pick on a moderately hard animal to hunt with severely capped stun points. Or backstab your victim. Or go sparring. Or do anything shady!

I don't see why you need to have listen/watch/scan/guard all up going hunting, unless what you're hunting can sneak, hide, and backstab/sap. Then it wouldn't be a moderately hard animal nor an animal that's being hunted, but rather hunting YOU. It's a challenge and trade-off I believe is definitely more realistic and enjoyable.

Edited to add: And if you're hunting or trying to avoid an animal/humanoid with those kind of capabilities that you need to do all those things, the mental sharpness and stress required to be on your toes at all moments is likely portrayed with the stun loss.

[Fallstorm]

You're missing the part where having these skills on gives you a chance to avoid the noob dwarf's sap.  It's a trade off, would you rather take the chance that his sap won't do that much damage if it hits you and leave the skills off?  Or do you think that one avoided sap is worth the stun cap?

On the flip note, does having scan/listen and such on also help avoiding spell effects? I think that would be a nice balance...

[Melody]

Edit: I am fickle. Don't see the point in argument any more. Going to wait for next reboot

[a strange shadow]

Please please please reduce the max caps (or here's a novel idea, balance out the skills vs. each other without penalizing a point stat).

I've already said all I can say on the subject. Still, 6 is steep. 2 was tolerable. 3 would be livable. 6 is more than we lose for barrier.

Come on, Morg. Usually I'm your biggest fan, but this is just another blow to mundane enjoyability.  

Edit: I am a big fan of "playability" over realism. This is at its heart a gritty fantasy game, not a reality simulator.

[Yokunama]

You're missing the part where having these skills on gives you a chance to avoid the noob dwarf's sap.  It's a trade off, would you rather take the chance that his sap won't do that much damage if it hits you and leave the skills off?  Or do you think that one avoided sap is worth the stun cap?

Theres a playability issue. Stun is more easily lost than it is regenerated. Not only that, some people do not start out with much stun. And with these caps from the skills, they put  oeople who rely on the combination of listen/scan in a bind. Coming from someone who usually enjoys the combat system and all the ins and outs of it, I feel that my character is at a huge disadvantage going into the fray.

[Clearsighted]

the current implementation of scan, listen etc is bit less than optimal.

Okay. So it is suppressed on combat. So you can't use it, yet the scan stun costs remain.

That means you should stop scanning before entering combat and turn it on after. Which means the fact that it is suppressed upon entering combat and then brought back has no utility. Since you'll be wanting to do that anyways unless you want to risk fighting with 10-20 lower stun.

I think even in combat, scan and listen should continue to give SOME avoidance bonuses to stuff like sap, since you're still accepting the -stun penalty.