The Sun King's Sanctuary/Other taverns vs. Society

[Desertman]

My two sids...

Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.

Asshats.

[Yam]

My two sids...

Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.

Asshats.

It's not just for rich people. If it was, it wouldn't be 5 rooms from the gates and right next to the stable.

You know, because stables smell like shit.

[Kiri]

My two sids...

Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.

Asshats.

His Sanctuary isn't just for the rich or the Chosen. It's for anyone with proper Tuluki manners who wish to sit and have decent conversation.

It's like the Bard's Barrel in 'Nak used to be, just in a wider degree.

[musashi]

My two sids...

Whats with all of the ass-faces who arent rich sitting in the Sun King's Sanctuary. If you arent wearing silk, get the fuck out and go taverns that fit your caste.

Asshats.

His Sanctuary isn't just for the rich or the Chosen. It's for anyone with proper Tuluki manners who wish to sit and have decent conversation.

It's like the Bard's Barrel in 'Nak used to be, just in a wider degree.

Ayup. I agree, although I tend to have my characters frequent the tembo tooth just because I like the gritty room description ... and you know ... I hate actually seeing other PC's in the game and would rather play solo 100% of the time.

[Desertman]

It's not just for rich people. If it was, it wouldn't be 5 rooms from the gates and right next to the stable.

You know, because stables smell like shit.

You are being humerous? If you are, that was funny.

If you arent, my reply is that the stables are a couple of squares from the Sanctuary and one may consider the size of a square to be 100 yards or more...so, a couple of hundred yards from the stables and thus not a henderance.

His Sanctuary isn't just for the rich or the Chosen. It's for anyone with proper Tuluki manners who wish to sit and have decent conversation.

Anyone with proper Tuluki manners would realize you dont go to the Sanctuary unless you are properly dressed to be in such a social setting.

I dont go to a five star restaurant dressed in cut-off jean shorts and a wife beater, with flipflops on.

Do not go to the Sanctuary, if you have proper Tuluki manners, dressed in your smelly sandcloth or armor.

Ayup. I agree, although I tend to have my characters frequent the tembo tooth just because I like the gritty room description ... and you know ... I hate actually seeing other PC's in the game and would rather play solo 100% of the time.

If we could get all of the blood-spattered dwarves, worthless halfbreeds hunters, and tattered cloth-wearing scoundrels out of the Sanctuary, and into the Tooth or Freil's pub...You would actually have people to play with in other taverns.

[Barzalene]

I've had a couple of pc's now, who have felt that the different bars were not  necessarily for different people, but rather for different purposes.

[mansa]

Bars are for getting drunk at.

[Desertman]

I could be wrong.

Maybe it makes perfect fucking sense for blood-spattered smelly hunters and fully armored mercenaries to spend their days sitting in the ritzy Sanctuary.

Or maybe, those people should get the fuck out.

A certain clan in game actually has a rule about its lower ranking members visiting the Sanctuary. They arent allowed in the Sanctuary, because the Sanctuary is designed for upper-class folks.

[Ourla]

Agree with Desertman.  I don't look twice at elves, dwarves, warriors or what-have-you in the Sanc unless they're dripping blood or covered in tunnel-shit.  The Sanctuary is THE major meeting place in Tuluk.  Thieves go there to get registered.  Commoners meet with their patrons.  It is an establishment that you would expect to see a wide variety of citizens in.  But... read the room description.  The place is pretty swanky, with its marble floor and fancy tables.  If you walk in there with nothing but a loincloth (ahem, Desertman) or you're purging massive quantities of blood all over the seating, you will get the stinkeye.

[Gimfalisette]

If we could get all of the blood-spattered dwarves, worthless halfbreeds hunters, and tattered cloth-wearing scoundrels out of the Sanctuary, and into the Tooth or Freil's pub...You would actually have people to play with in other taverns.

The way to get people to play in other taverns isn't to arbitrarily declare that one group goes here, another goes there. It's for the PCs in the city to actually, y'know, USE the other taverns. Nobles and templars can frequent the Tooth, or the Pub, or the Ghaati...probably not so much the Burrow, but who knows. The certain clan you mentioned that forbids its members from hanging at the Sanc doesn't always necessarily have this rule in force (I've known it to be lifted at times).

Yeah, probably dripping blood on the floor or smelling really, truly bad is not the right thing for the Sanc. But most of the PCs in the Sanc never do fit that description.

I think it's also important to remember the Sanc's historical contribution literally as a refuge for Tulukis during times of crisis. It is the central meeting place for the city for really valid reasons.

I'm fond of seeing who is at the Sanc, then dragging my chosen victim drinking buddy to whatever other location would be appropriate for the activity we want to pursue: Tea at the Ghaati for nice quiet conversation, the Tooth or the Pub for darts and cheaper drinking, the Tooth because it's got those booths, or any of them in order to escape someone odious sitting at the bar in the Sanc. Be the change you want to see in Tuluk.

[Fathi]

Agree with Desertman.  I don't look twice at elves, dwarves, warriors or what-have-you in the Sanc unless they're dripping blood or covered in tunnel-shit.  The Sanctuary is THE major meeting place in Tuluk.  Thieves go there to get registered.  Commoners meet with their patrons.  It is an establishment that you would expect to see a wide variety of citizens in.  But... read the room description.  The place is pretty swanky, with its marble floor and fancy tables.  If you walk in there with nothing but a loincloth (ahem, Desertman) or you're purging massive quantities of blood all over the seating, you will get the stinkeye.

I think you bring up a good point. One of the things to keep in mind about the Sanctuary is that it's much more than just a bar--for example, patronage is an integral part of Tuluki society. If you're a commoner--no matter what stripe of commoner--and you're looking for Chosen or Faithful to perhaps establish a relationship with, you aren't gonna find 'em in the Tooth, usually.

It's not just a meeting place in the sense of a social town-hall type setting; it's also the first step toward doing business with several of Tuluk's higher-class circles.

I do agree that commoners should take their attire (or even just the state of it) into account more often when going there. I personally would not see anything wrong with a warrior/hunter/guard type wearing armour or sandcloth travel gear there. After all, if you're looking for work, advertising your gear is an integral part of advertising yourself--you're showing the resources you've got and how well prepared you are for potential jobs. But I wouldn't wear armour to the Sanctuary if it was covered in guts.

[Desertman]

Agree with Desertman.  I don't look twice at elves, dwarves, warriors or what-have-you in the Sanc unless they're dripping blood or covered in tunnel-shit.  The Sanctuary is THE major meeting place in Tuluk.  Thieves go there to get registered.  Commoners meet with their patrons.  It is an establishment that you would expect to see a wide variety of citizens in.  But... read the room description.  The place is pretty swanky, with its marble floor and fancy tables.  If you walk in there with nothing but a loincloth (ahem, Desertman) or you're purging massive quantities of blood all over the seating, you will get the stinkeye.

In my defense, I walked in there wearing a loincloth with the exact intention of someone throwing me out on  my head, or getting to sit a night in jail.

But because everyone is a fucking ass-hat and thinks the Sanctuary is just another tavern where commoners chill because its a leet and cool, noone even messed with me.

Though I was told to buy some boots before I came back.

Do you know how much raunchy shit I did in there and noone ever once gave me the stinkeye? I was horribly dissapointed.

[Desertman]

The certain clan you mentioned that forbids its members from hanging at the Sanc doesn't always necessarily have this rule in force (I've known it to be lifted at times).

Which is a pathetic shame and the lifter deserves to be beaten by the Commander to within a inch of their life for defiling the sanctity of the clan that I mentioned. But, thats just my opinion.

Yeah, probably dripping blood on the floor or smelling really, truly bad is not the right thing for the Sanc. But most of the PCs in the Sanc never do fit that description.

If you cant afford water to bathe, which the VAST majority of commoners cant. Or cant afford to waste coins on perfumes, which the VAST majority of commoners cant...Then you probably stink like ass. Around other commoners, it wouldnt be noticeable. Around other upper-crest society members, they would probably be offended by your stench, even if they were too proper to say so.

I think it's also important to remember the Sanc's historical contribution literally as a refuge for Tulukis during times of crisis. It is the central meeting place for the city for really valid reasons.

The crisis is over, now get your poor ass out of the way, you are smudging the shiny bar and filling the nice wine-scented air with your miserable stink.

[staggerlee]

The certain clan you mentioned that forbids its members from hanging at the Sanc doesn't always necessarily have this rule in force (I've known it to be lifted at times).

Which is a pathetic shame and the lifter deserves to be beaten by the Commander to within a inch of their life for defiling the sanctity of the clan that I mentioned. But, thats just my opinion.

Yeah, probably dripping blood on the floor or smelling really, truly bad is not the right thing for the Sanc. But most of the PCs in the Sanc never do fit that description.

If you cant afford water to bathe, which the VAST majority of commoners cant. Or cant afford to waste coins on perfumes, which the VAST majority of commoners cant...Then you probably stink like ass. Around other commoners, it wouldnt be noticeable. Around other upper-crest society members, they would probably be offended by your stench, even if they were too proper to say so.

I think it's also important to remember the Sanc's historical contribution literally as a refuge for Tulukis during times of crisis. It is the central meeting place for the city for really valid reasons.

The crisis is over, now get your poor ass out of the way, you are smudging the shiny bar and filling the nice wine-scented air with your miserable stink.

I think that attitude, as you're exemplifying it, is more befitting of Allanak than Tuluk.
There are different expectations in place.

I think that in Tuluk behavior is more critical than social standing when discussing social scene.   What you're demanding would make more sense in Allanak.

[Gimfalisette]

Do you know how much raunchy shit I did in there and noone ever once gave me the stinkeye? I was horribly dissapointed.

Well, that's one unfortunate thing about Tuluk. Too often, PCs just neglect to start shit with other PCs in public. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone other than me and maybe one or two others really get offensive in someone's face at the bar in the Sanc. (Err...subtly offensive. Still offensive, though.)

I think it's because people can't figure out how to do it not Nakki-style. Open, loud confrontation is not very Tuluki. What is Tuluki is snide remarks, shaming someone, starting rumors, shunning, etc. But if you just do that stuff, a lot of times the target PC doesn't even notice.

A paraphrase of still my favorite episode of openly insulting someone at the bar in the Sanc:

Staring at him as he finishes performing, you ask a rival bard, in sirihish: "You -do- know that song doesn't rhyme, or have any discernible rhythm...right?"

The crisis is over, now get your poor ass out of the way, you are smudging the shiny bar and filling the nice wine-scented air with your miserable stink.

There's nothing wrong with smelling like an average commoner in the Sanc. You need to just drop that prejudice. There are many VNPC and NPC commoners in there smelling just the same.

And Tulukis don't ever drop history. You're hugely misunderstanding Tuluk if you overlook the significance of history and tradition to the people. The history of the destruction of Tuluk, the rise of the two villages, then the Allanaki occupation and successful rebellion, is immensely important.

[Desertman]

I think you bring up a good point. One of the things to keep in mind about the Sanctuary is that it's much more than just a bar--for example, patronage is an integral part of Tuluki society. If you're a commoner--no matter what stripe of commoner--and you're looking for Chosen or Faithful to perhaps establish a relationship with, you aren't gonna find 'em in the Tooth, usually.

It's not just a meeting place in the sense of a social town-hall type setting; it's also the first step toward doing business with several of Tuluk's higher-class circles.

I do agree that commoners should take their attire (or even just the state of it) into account more often when going there. I personally would not see anything wrong with a warrior/hunter/guard type wearing armour or sandcloth travel gear there. After all, if you're looking for work, advertising your gear is an integral part of advertising yourself--you're showing the resources you've got and how well prepared you are for potential jobs. But I wouldn't wear armour to the Sanctuary if it was covered in guts.

If a commoner has a meeting with a Chosen or a Faithful and its more convenient for the Chosen of the Faithful for the commoner to come into the ritzy Sanctuary than it is for the Chosen or Faithful to go to the commoner, I have no problem with the commoner being there. They are there by invitation from an individual who is in the right caste to extend such an invitation.

If the character I am playing is sane, and is a commoner, I really dont tend to sit about the Sanctuary wearing my hunter's garb.

The idea of wearing your "hunters gear" or "warrior armor" to the Sanctuary as a way to advertise your skills and abilities in hopes that you will get hired is strikingly similar to...

A Ritzy Country Club
(N,S,E,W)
You are in a fine Country Club. The rooms smells sweet with aromas of the perfumes of the lavishly dressed patrons all about you in their suites and ties and fancy gowns. Foods and wines of a pricey nature are being served at the highly polished and well tended bar and the marble floors shine from their constant tending to bring out thier natural luster.
A well-dressed older male is here, sitting at the highly polished bar having a drink.
The immaculately clean woman is here, sipping a glass of expensive wine at a finely made table.

The sweat-smelling, deeply-tanned construction worker has arrived from the south, a jackhammer slung over his shoulder.

The sweat-smelling, deeply-tanned construction worker says in southern-accented English, pushing his hardhat back up out of his eyes with a stained leather glove, "Aright! I hear tha' Jacob Johnson, owner of Big Time construction drinks here after work. I'm just gonna' sit at the bar, with my jackhammer, until I see him come around. I'm just trying ta' get a job with'm."


The idea of hunters and guards sitting at the Sanctuary with ther "equipment" as a means of advertising, is no different.

[musashi]

I think it's also important to remember that we should watch the line between realism and playability.

If only nobles and upper class people went to the Sanctuary we might be dividing the player-base in a way that it isn't big enough to support, and the game might be a wee less fun to play as a result.

Plus, as was mentioned ... if you never have an opportunity to meet and speak with the Chosen, it's hard to get that patron thing going on.

[Desertman]

I think that attitude, as you're exemplifying it, is more befitting of Allanak than Tuluk.
There are different expectations in place.

I think that in Tuluk behavior is more critical than social standing when discussing social scene.   What you're demanding would make more sense in Allanak.

If I smell nice and bathe and wear perfume, and some smelly ass construction worker comes and rubs elbows with me at the bar, and he cant even afford a drink in the place, I am going to have thoughts about that fellow.

The first thought being..."WTF is this guy doing here?"

Maybe Tuluki upper-class folks are simply all have golden hearts and dont get offended by lower class commoners assulting their senses, not to mention their sensibilities.

[mansa]

Someone should burn down the Firestorm's Pub.

Again.

[Gimfalisette]

we should watch the line between realism and playability.

Which it should be noted is not exactly Desertman's specialty.

Maybe Tuluki upper-class folks are simply all have golden hearts and dont get offended by lower class commoners assulting their senses, not to mention their sensibilities.

Well, yeah...that's not actually incredibly far from the truth, at least from a "political veneer" perspective. Did you not read the rest of the thread, where we talked about things like the historical basis for the patronage system?

[Desertman]

Which it should be noted is not exactly Desertman's specialty.

Yeah, I have to take that. I do tend to worry about things that actually make sense, more than I worry about how fun it would be to be part of my proposed system. I have a problem with putting playability above realism. Its a curse.

Well, yeah...that's not actually incredibly far from the truth, at least from a "political veneer" perspective. Did you not read the rest of the thread, where we talked about things like the historical basis for the patronage system?

I played through the entire rebel war, occupation, and liberation.

Not only did I read it, I lived it.

Now, that being said, I understand the concept of the patronage system. I understand why it was implemented and I understand the pretense for which it was aimed.

I also understand human nature. I understand that upper-crest individuals dont really like to sit next to smelly commoners while they drink their expensive wine.

Thats just human nature.

Now, if we want to argue that Tuluki upper-crest citizens all have a natural affinity for the common class and things like..."Standard human emotions in regards to someone that smells like ass."...Do not apply to them as such, well I cant argue with that.

If that is the case, if Tuluki's Richers really do have natural hearts of gold and really dont mind eating their expensive meals while a hunter halfbreed in sweat-stained garb sits next to them...Fuck it, Tuluk just sucks and I am finished with this thread.

[Gimfalisette]

I also understand human nature. I understand that upper-crest individuals dont really like to sit next to smelly commoners while they drink their expensive wine.

Thats just human nature.

Now, if we want to argue that Tuluki upper-crest citizens all have a natural affinity for the common class and things like..."Standar human emotions in regards to someone that smells like ass."...Do not apply to them as such, well I cant argue with that.

If that is the case, if Tuluki's Richers really do have natural hearts of gold and really dont mind eating their expensive meals while a hunter halfbreed in sweat-stained garb sits next to them...Fuck it, Tuluk just sucks and I am finished with this thread.

Did you miss the part about "political veneer"?

[Desertman]

I also understand human nature. I understand that upper-crest individuals dont really like to sit next to smelly commoners while they drink their expensive wine.

Thats just human nature.

Now, if we want to argue that Tuluki upper-crest citizens all have a natural affinity for the common class and things like..."Standar human emotions in regards to someone that smells like ass."...Do not apply to them as such, well I cant argue with that.

If that is the case, if Tuluki's Richers really do have natural hearts of gold and really dont mind eating their expensive meals while a hunter halfbreed in sweat-stained garb sits next to them...Fuck it, Tuluk just sucks and I am finished with this thread.

Did you miss the part about "political veneer"?

No, but regardless of if its an "act" that the upper crest of society follow because they dont want to offend that smelly commoner breed...

The end result is the same. They dont say shit about the breed sitting there ruining their meal with his filthy stink, and as such, the place just crawls with commoners.

Political Veneer, is a scapegoat in lieu of realistic playing.

My Nobles will always act as though they are happy to mix with the commoners, no matter how much they smell, or how disgusting they look, or how crass they speak, because its all part of my political veneer.

*Gag*

[Gimfalisette]

Political Veneer, is a scapegoat in lieu of realistic playing.

My Nobles will always act as though they are happy to mix with the commoners, no matter how much they smell, or how disgusting they look, or how crass they speak, because I have political veneer.

*Gag*

"Realistic playing" is playing to the docs. The docs are quite clear about Tuluki culture and its underpinnings. Not every place in the Known World is the Gaj, Desertman. I understand that the Gaj is your very favorite playing environment, but cultures and places are different because variety is necessary and good.

[musashi]

But ... I think we are all in agreement that even in Tuluk, where we have a kinder, gentler nobility and Templarate ... you should still clean the blood, sweat, and shit off yourself before you go meet someone important.