Hot Button Issue: Sexism

Started by Ampere, August 20, 2008, 10:21:33 PM

August 20, 2008, 10:21:33 PM Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 05:02:54 AM by Ampere
I've encountered some players who take on an attitude of TOTAL gender neutrality.  Going so far as to attack anyone who would be offended by someone calling a man a woman; or vice versa.

This IMHO is fucking retarded.

The gender pomo police are far more unlikely to exist in this harsh environment.

Sexual division of labour: Women spurt kids/raise kids (generally).  Men forage while their partner spurts/raises kids.

Commonalities between those of the same sex invariably lead to cultural differences between the sexes.

This sort of reality in no way suggests the superiority of one sex over the other; which I feel was the true intention of the docs relating to sexism.


Thanks.

Quote from: scienceAn early study by Plaut and Kohn-Speyer (1947)[11] found that horse smegma had a carcinogenic effect on mice. Heins et al.(1958)

There is no sexism in Zalanthas.

Period.

End of story.

August 20, 2008, 10:27:43 PM #2 Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 10:31:09 PM by Synthesis


Edited:  A picture is worth a thousand words?
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: SmuzI come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying.

But unfortunately people take it to mean that there's no difference between the sexes.
Quote from: scienceAn early study by Plaut and Kohn-Speyer (1947)[11] found that horse smegma had a carcinogenic effect on mice. Heins et al.(1958)

Quote from: Ampere on August 20, 2008, 10:30:08 PM
I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying.

But unfortunately people take it to mean that there's no difference between the sexes.

Well then, to make it more clear, there is total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.

The docs and the Staff have clearly stated, time and TIME AGAIN:

There is no difference, beyond the physical appearance and the fact that women bear children.

There are no cultural differences, period.  Women don't raise children just because they bear them.  Men aren't any more macho than women.  Women aren't any more docile or demure than men.  They do the same jobs, drink the same ale, shovel the same shit, and kick the same amount of ass.

The same applies for sexual preferences, if I recall correctly:  homosexuality isn't perceived any differently than heterosexuality, except perhaps where a child is expected, but in that situation, I suppose arrangements could easily be made.

This is actually one of the topics I'm fairly sick of hearing about.  GET OVER IT, seriously.

Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: SmuzI come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Fine. I've reviewed other forums and it is quite clear.

I must remind myself that we're dealing with aliens, not terrans.

Please don't pull a Catherine Mackinnon and equate the cultural differences between genders to sexism.  Sexism sucks; pride is empowering.


(tangent alert)

Child rearing men have been known to breast feed (pygmies central africa); I would love to see some male wetnurses walking around.
Quote from: scienceAn early study by Plaut and Kohn-Speyer (1947)[11] found that horse smegma had a carcinogenic effect on mice. Heins et al.(1958)

Hey, look.

It's this thread again.
Quote from: H. L.  MenckenEvery normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

There are a few cultural differences between genders...or specific roles for the different genders, if you will...but they exist as portions of organizational/political structures.

There are no general cultural assumptions about gender roles or what it "means" to be male or female in Zalanthas. There are very few ideas that one gender or the other should wear or should not wear any type of item. Child-rearing is a "best person for the job" affair. Etc.

This is just something you'll have to deal with in order to be able to play by the docs.

And yeah, Mood, want some popcorn? *passes*
Quote from: Vanth on February 13, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

The term sexism encompasses far more than just prejudice, by the by.

zomg. Last post.

*rolls in an industrial popcorn maker*

Thanks. I had no idea.
Quote from: scienceAn early study by Plaut and Kohn-Speyer (1947)[11] found that horse smegma had a carcinogenic effect on mice. Heins et al.(1958)

Since it seems like you're new to the issue of sexism here in ARM, Ampere, I'll add something: Whether or not it's "realistic" for there to be no sexism in the game, it was a specific design choice made by staff so that women (and men) could play any roles they wanted without being hampered by applied sexism from the real world. Not everyone wants to have to play a male character in order to roll up that buff warrior, nor does everyone want to have to play a female in order to be a dainty aide. Same thing with homosexuality or bisexuality; people who prefer to play characters of those orientations aren't required to wade through RL prejudices in order to do so.

The whole point being that this kind of inclusiveness means we will attract and retain a broader group of players, especially a higher proportion of female players, than we would otherwise.
Quote from: Vanth on February 13, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

August 20, 2008, 11:36:15 PM #12 Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:50:29 PM by Clearsighted
Quote from: Ampere on August 20, 2008, 10:21:33 PM
I've encountered some players who take on an attitude of TOTAL gender neutrality.  Going so far as to attack anyone who would be offended by someone calling a man a woman; or vise versa.

This IMHO is fucking retarded.

The gender pomo police are far more unlikely to exist in this harsh environment.

Sexual division of labour: Women spurt kids/raise kids (generally).  Men forage while their partner spurts/raises kids.

Commonalities between those of the same sex invariably lead to cultural differences between the sexes.

This sort of reality in no way suggests the superiority of one sex over the other; which I feel was the true intention of the docs relating to sexism.


Thanks.



It's true that in reality, the nasty environment that Zalanthas portrays would result in the most brutal extremities of sexism.

Yet sometime long ago, there was a concerted effort to change that in Armageddon. I remember in past arguments when this was brought up, that some went so far in their defense of it as to claim human biology in Zalanthas was different making men and women equally strong on average and thus no gender role differences. I haven't seen many men giving birth, sadly.

In any case. It's not worth discussing. It's such a dead topic. People will be unyielding stubborn on their own interpretation no matter what.

IMO, if everyone just played dwarves, it wouldn't be a problem.


There's no "interpretation." It's a matter of playing by the docs.
Quote from: Vanth on February 13, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

New forum thread: "How to improve sexist behavior" and "How to be a better racist" !


August 21, 2008, 01:18:32 AM #16 Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:49:10 AM by Angela Christine
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 20, 2008, 11:36:15 PM
IMO, if everyone just played dwarves, it wouldn't be a problem.

Ha!  Those stumpy little bastards are horny as hell.  Female dwarf PCs are pretty rare, so the ones that show up are, um, "popular".


Quote from: Ampere on August 20, 2008, 10:56:04 PM
(tangent alert)

Child rearing men have been known to breast feed (pygmies central africa); I would love to see some male wetnurses walking around.



I know, right?  Every few years I post about male lactation, but nobody ever takes me up on it.   :(  I can't make a nursing father, because everyone would know it was me.

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/milkmen.html
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/nursingfather.html

Dudes have nipples, dudes have glands attached to those nipples.  With the right stimulation male mammals (and females who have not had children) can produce milk.  Pregnancy produces hormones and whatnot that get you ready for lactation, but lactation is possible without pregnancy. 

On Earth females are probably capable of producing more milk, but in Zalanthas males and females are equally capable of doing everything but giving birth, so Zalanthan males ought to be pretty good at breast feeding too.  There are plenty of weird mutations that don't raise an eyebrow in Zalanthas, a guy swollen whose breasts are swollen up to an A cup breast feeding a baby should hardly register at all.






Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

Those links made a shiver run down my spine.

The bad kind.  :o

I just want to say take it easy on Ampere even though I know it is frustrating to see the same threads pop up again and again.  He seemed to be pretty quick to to back down and let us know he wasn't aware of the situation and I think the same courtesy should be given to him/her.

Brandon
Quote from: Ghost on December 16, 2009, 06:15:17 PMbrandon....

you did the biggest mistake of your life

I just want to third on male lactation.

It does sound REALLY GROSS, but it is actually possible on earth and therefore might as well be considered possible in zalanthas.  Though it takes a lot of stimulation I'm told for it to happen.

August 21, 2008, 01:06:05 PM #20 Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 01:08:17 PM by Desertman
I just wanted to post that generally the PC's on Zalanthas are considered the "exception".

The PC's are allowed to be friends with magickers.

The PC's are allowed to not be a religious zealot towards the ruler of their city state.

The VNPC's and most of the NPC's follow all of the rules of the documentation for personality traits.


If you want to play a hardcore sexist PC for whatever reason, go ahead. You are a PC, you are the exception.

Pretty much every PC I play is sexist to an extent.

I run into SO many fragile F'me female PC's it makes it HARD to treat them like they are my equal in game, when the vast majority are playing your typical fragile RL female.

In my defense, I have ran into a few "hardass" female PC's, and I always treat them like "One of the guys"...Those of you who have played merc females with me know that to be true, I'll gut you as fast as the next guy.

And on that same note if I run into male characters that are playing little frilly boys, I treat them like little frilly boys.

I guess what I am saying is technically all character's should not follow gender roles...But since a vast majority that I have seen do, atleast to some extent, I am and will continue be sexist in game, atleast to some extent.
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My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
Quote from: deathkamon on November 14, 2015, 12:29:56 AM
The young daughter has been filled.

I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.
Quote from: Wug
No one on staff is just waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on someone who killed one of their characters years ago.

Except me. I remember every death. And I am coming for you bastards.

August 21, 2008, 01:30:18 PM #22 Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 01:47:44 PM by Yam
I often make female f-mes too.

Mudsexers beware.


I also make f-me males though. In fact, I made the most f-me male in the entire history of the game. He died of starvation with under 5 hours played because my connection dropped.

QuoteI run into SO many fragile F'me female PC's it makes it HARD to treat them like they are my equal in game, when the vast majority are playing your typical fragile RL female.

Quoted for truth.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 21, 2008, 01:17:24 PM
I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.

Why?  I think people should be allowed to make whichever type of character they want and that's looks included.  That doesn't mean I won't balk at some descriptions that describe their globe like breasts or tiny waist or a man's rugged good looks... but it's their choice.  Personally, I have alot of fun writing up rather unattractive PCs and I feel it's my prerogative to do so.  But I guess that means I just have dashing good looks IRL.

Brandon
Quote from: Ghost on December 16, 2009, 06:15:17 PMbrandon....

you did the biggest mistake of your life