Templars and fear

[Marauder Moe]

...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to picture how a bribery scenario would work.  "Lord Templar, can I pay my fine now?"

It's Allanak.  Just flat out ask "how much is this gonna cost me, Lord Templar?" or if you have a good guess, pull out the coin and offer them.  No need to do it subtly or out of sight.  It's just like any other business transaction, though haggling is going to be difficult if there's a lot of evidence against you.

This goes double for soldiers, since they're more likely to be the ones arresting and interrogating you for lesser crimes.

[spawnloser]

That's all I'm trying to say: Noobs could use some specific "this is a really bad idea to do" kind of instruction.

I agree with this.  The documentation should be telling people what the general way things go is.  In general, it is a bad idea to spit, call names, run from, etc.  It is a good idea to make like your life is in the Templar's hand, so that is what should go into the documentation with the clause that this is the general way things are... not the way things are 100% of the time.

[naatok]

In Allanak, bribery will get you everywhere....

Unfortunately 'dead' can be...and often is...included in that location.

:twisted:

[Bebop]

In Allanak, bribery will get you everywhere....

Unfortunately 'dead' can be...and often is...included in that location.

:twisted:

Many people truly do underestimate the power of BRIBERY.

It's like what cheese does to you non-vegans.

Behold the power of bribes.

[a strange shadow]

There is little that a smile and the right amount of money can't accomplish.

[Cale_Knight]

Just to reiterate what's already been said:

In nine cases out of ten, the player of the templar or soldier does not want to kill you.

Roleplay it out. Bribe. Beg. Plead. Barter. You might be surprised.

[SpyGuy]

...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to picture how a bribery scenario would work.  "Lord Templar, can I pay my fine now?"

It's Allanak.  Just flat out ask "how much is this gonna cost me, Lord Templar?" or if you have a good guess, pull out the coin and offer them.  No need to do it subtly or out of sight.  It's just like any other business transaction, though haggling is going to be difficult if there's a lot of evidence against you.

This goes double for soldiers, since they're more likely to be the ones arresting and interrogating you for lesser crimes.

I'd disagree with this slightly.  It of course depends on what character you're playing but using a little more tact than bluntly asking how much goes a long way.  The last thing you want to do in that situation is insult a templar by making them look like a common merchant doing a simple business transaction.  I usually have more luck when licking their boots for a few minutes then making promises to do whatever is in my power to appease them (ie. how much do you want or what do you want me to do).  Also not offering money straight up can lead to interesting RP when the templar instead decides to ask for services instead of cash.  Treating templars like they're god usually works, and since they're Tek's representatives...yeah.

Alsoplayers should be sensitive to where they are and who is around when they offer/give a bribe.  In private is the time to offer a bribe (ie. Here's 2000 sid, now can we talk about my problem...) because the templar may or may not want people to know who is bribing them.  A smart templar should be able to get plenty of bribes from both Oash and Borsail but he'd be wise to keep the extent of eaches influence over him secret from the other.  This is likewise the case when you're caught being naughty by a templar and others are in the room.  Templar X may have no problems with your noble smoking spice but if stuck up noble Z is throwing a hissy fit about it it's usually wise to let Templar X first take you aside and then pay them off rather than to do it infront of noble Z.

But that's how I handle the bribery game.  In many ways it's best to bribe before you get in trouble rather than after.  But few PCs have the sort of coin and influence to do that easily.

[staggerlee]

Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a Templar. A normal 'rinther will panic and immediately bow. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the Templar. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow.

[Southie]

... and then kick your ass twice as hard.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, sorry, but if I'm playing a 'rinthi that has some reason to RP with a templar, then my character is gonna bow. Rinthis aren't stupid; they know about authority structures, they know about showing respect, they know about power. (Of course, if I'm playing a 'rinthi, my character will first try to AVOID having anything to do with templars.)

And arousing contempt? The templar already loathes your existence if you're a 'rinthi, and you know that. Bowing isn't going to make that worse.

[Troicha]

'rinthis get, from templars, generally one of two things. There are factors which can make this different, but in general, here they are.

-nonrecognition

-recognition

In nearly all cases, the first is far more likely to be good for the 'rinthi.

[LoD]

It's entirely possible that common characters at every level would be lumped into the same general category by most templars.  When you serve as the eyes, ears, and executioner's ax of whatever God-King you happen to worship, talking to a northsider over a southsider might be like choosing to hold a rat or a squirrel.  Yeah, one has a cuter outfit -- but they're still both rodents that you'd rather not touch.

Most any character that does not have a direct link, normally a shared family name, to a powerful political organization, would likely express the same level of fear and respect to the templars and expect little difference in the way they are treated.

-LoD

[brytta.leofa]

For your amusement and critique:
- Blue Robed Templar = level 10.
- Low-level noble = level 9.  They're cousins/friends/etc., but they'd best not get in a templar's way.
- Senior family in the great merchant houses = level 14.  No one would ever say it out loud, but a solitary blue robe who kills one of those folks will get stomped.
- Junior family = level 5.  Their only power is in their family's ability to hold a grudge.  High-ranking house militia officers sit about here, as well.
- Militia officers, gemmed with good reputations = level 4.  Useful but replaceable.
- Low-ranking House-employed commoners = level 2.  Smackable, but some paperwork involved.
- Average southside commoners = level 1.
- Average (unaffiliated) northside commoners = level 0.  Nobody cares.

[Gimfalisette]

Well. No, not really.

Starting point for social standing in Allanak is the social rankings table. Now, it's got some notable errors / omissions on it and in its surrounding documentation:
:arrow: The noble house rankings are wrong.
:arrow: There is no "militia commander" position for commoners, and a templar "militia commander" is a blue robe, thus ranked with templars.
:arrow: The positions of Sergeant and Corporal are backwards.
:arrow: Gemmers are not on there specifically, though most probably fall in the "slave of the templarate" rank. Not sure how the CAM ranks would fit in, but I'd guess that the highest-ranked mage is no higher in status than a militia captain.

But taking those errors in stride, the table is still fairly correct and usable for a starter.

Then you add in stuff like:
:arrow: Their boss' status. Being the aide of a senior noble or red robe templar > being the aide of a blue robe templar > being the aide of a senior merchant.
:arrow: Their significant relationships with other people, and the status of those other people. Example: Openly having a sexual relationship with a breed or elf or 'gicker, if you're human normal, will lower your status. Openly employing a breed or elf, same thing. Openly employing a gemmer for anything but magick (such as having a gemmer aide, unless maybe you're an Oash noble), same thing. However, hooking up with a well-respected senior merchant of a GMH? Good for status. Being a templar's concubine? Good for status.
:arrow: Stuff they've done, great deeds, stories told about the person, reputation in general, are they perceived as competent/incompetent, etc.
:arrow: Personal wealth.
:arrow: Personal factors: Good looks, charisma, attention to fashion, sense of humor, abilities and talents, etc.

All of the above plays into actual status. A 'rinthi could conceivably be higher status than your average 'nakki commoner. A noble who bumbles may have less status, IN PRACTICE, than a commoner who is savvy and competent.

You have to remember that there is public status, and there is also private status. Public status rules the public displays that are made; private status is more what ultimately rules the happenings between characters and in plots.

[brytta.leofa]

Well, the major discrepancy I see in mine is that I'm listing senior merchants higher than blue robes...and I'm still inclined to think that I'm right on that count.  There are presumably only 6-8 Kadian "Senior Merchant (6)"-es controlling the flow of luxury goods in the Known World, but there are scores of blue robed templars.  

The public status vs. private power thing is certainly crucial.  I would expect that the status of militia officers and merchants tends to lag their actual power, while noble house employees would have less freedom to exercise power than their status might imply.  Affiliated 'rinthis may have considerable power, but no social status.

But heck, I'm no expert.

[Gimfalisette]

Just to specifically address some points:

- Low-level noble = level 9.  They're cousins/friends/etc., but they'd best not get in a templar's way.

This completely depends on the relative statuses of the noble and the templar.

- Senior family in the great merchant houses = level 14.  No one would ever say it out loud, but a solitary blue robe who kills one of those folks will get stomped.

Again...it depends. The thing about a blue robe killing -anyone- "important" is: Would you really be likely to hear about it, if it happened?

- Junior family = level 5.  Their only power is in their family's ability to hold a grudge.  High-ranking house militia officers sit about here, as well.

Officers of the militia and noble house guard officers are well above the status held by junior merchant family members. I mean, think about it...junior merchant family are characters who have JUST been created, for the most part. They have no power within their family at all and haven't done squat yet. (Despite the large quantity of junior family member PCs who try to pull the "I'll have my House do bad things to your organization!" power trip--it doesn't really work that way.) Whereas PCs who are officers in the militia or a noble house have undoubtedly got quite a bit of longevity behind them, and trust from their superiors.

- Militia officers, gemmed with good reputations = level 4.  Useful but replaceable.

Militia officers = Sergeant and above. [Edited to take out a piece of evidence for my point here which may have been too IC.] Maybe in the really, really grand scheme of VNPCs they're considered "replaceable," but in the case of PCs this is pretty unlikely to be true. Gemmed with "good reputations"...depends on what you mean. A codedly powerful gemmed may be coddled by the templarate or an Oashi employer, but that's not the same thing as having high status. Status implies actually having political influence, and that doesn't ever come from coded power.

- Low-ranking House-employed commoners = level 2.  Smackable, but some paperwork involved.

Smackable by who, templars? Soldiers? Again...it depends on so many factors. It's all political.

The thing about politics that makes this arena of the game fun, interesting, and difficult is that it's very complex and quite changeable.

[Troicha]

Gimf, be careful before you start bringing in too much IC knowledge.

Not that you are, just yet, I don't think. You're getting close, though, even without giving out specifics.

[Fathi]

There are presumably only 6-8 Kadian "Senior Merchant (6)"-es controlling the flow of luxury goods in the Known World, but there are scores of blue robed templars.

This is true, and I bet the respective Merchant House would come down HARD on a blue robe that openly killed an individual of that rank if it wasn't for a good reason.

If, for example, a senior merchant in Kadius was discovered to be spying on Allanak and feeding information to Tuluk during a time of war, especially if the information aided the victory of the enemy?

Sure, Kadius would take measures to cover it up from the public eye, but if that sort of thing got out as general knowledge among the people whose opinions matter, I don't think the templar that executed them would have to worry about retribution from Kadius' end or his own.

From my experience with them, the Merchant Houses' internal power structures seem to be very much "you reap what you sow," because even if you're only one of six high-ranking family members, if you're caught spying for the other team, is it worth it for Kadius to sacrifice their neutrality for you?

[Jherlen]

Often times, in practice, it is the PCs with longevity and seniority who will win out.

If the freshly-apped templar tries to go and kill the noble or the merchant family member who's been around for a year, or to a lesser extent kill employees of those people, he's going to run into some friction. No matter what springboard you start from the people who jumped first have had a longer time to gain altitude. (Or fall, too.)

The social rankings table is more of a "who defers to who in public" guideline than a hard and fast "this guy is more powerful than that guy" chart. You could conceivably have gemmed characters or junior merchants or junior nobles of a mid-tier house wielding more power than a blue robe, in practice, if the commoner characters were smart and the blue robe was dumb. All the table says is who has to bow to who.

[staggerlee]

Yeah, sorry, but if I'm playing a 'rinthi that has some reason to RP with a templar, then my character is gonna bow. Rinthis aren't stupid; they know about authority structures, they know about showing respect, they know about power. (Of course, if I'm playing a 'rinthi, my character will first try to AVOID having anything to do with templars.)

And arousing contempt? The templar already loathes your existence if you're a 'rinthi, and you know that. Bowing isn't going to make that worse.

Now that I've thoroughly reinvigorated this thread...

I would just like to say... that was a thinly veiled Hunter S Thompson quote, I don't think I'd advocate following his lead in real life, so it's not necessarily advisable in the game either.  It's got nothing to do with my ic or ooc feelings.

Isn't that embarrassing.

[Troicha]

Now that I've thoroughly reinvigorated this thread...

I would just like to say... that was a thinly veiled Hunter S Thompson quote, I don't think I'd advocate following his lead in real life, so it's not necessarily advisable in the game either.  It's got nothing to do with my ic or ooc feelings.

Isn't that embarrassing.

Damnit, why'd you have to go spoil the fun?

[Agent_137]

For your amusement and critique:
- Blue Robed Templar = level 10.
- Low-level noble = level 9.  They're cousins/friends/etc., but they'd best not get in a templar's way.
- Senior family in the great merchant houses = level 14.  No one would ever say it out loud, but a solitary blue robe who kills one of those folks will get stomped.
- Junior family = level 5.  Their only power is in their family's ability to hold a grudge.  High-ranking house militia officers sit about here, as well.
- Militia officers, gemmed with good reputations = level 4.  Useful but replaceable.
- Low-ranking House-employed commoners = level 2.  Smackable, but some paperwork involved.
- Average southside commoners = level 1.
- Average (unaffiliated) northside commoners = level 0.  Nobody cares.

Don't we have an official table for this?
Sorta.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

in short, socially:
on average, a blue robe is = noble family member = merchant house head.

[Belenos]

I would second, please be cautious in that you do not disseminate not commonly known information.


That being said, looking at a ranking table is one thing, reality is often another.  In a world where corruption and assasinations rule, who is 'really' more powerful is somewhat subjective.  Don't get seduced by doing it by the numbers, you'll find the outcome to not be in your favor.

[Gimfalisette]

OK. I edited to take out the thing I think you guys were talking about.

Kind of a side point about politics: Although there's a different "ranking table" for Tuluk, the political similarities are significant. I'd strongly suggest anyone interested in politics in either city-state, or in the game in general, find marko's posts about politics and read read read.

In both city-states, it's way more complicated than a ranking table implies.

[Goldberry]

Some of these suggestions about RPing extensive submission to any templar in a room your character passes through...wow, that's so impractical it's silly.  "Bow or die!"  "The Bazaar would shut down until his hand was waved dismissively!"    :?

Makes me wonder how many of those people posting are playing templars.    :wink: