Templars and fear

[Marauder Moe]

If you're responding to my post, I was using familiarity in a linguistic and social status sense, rather than referring to rarity.

In a rarity sense, templars are already very "familiar".  Commoners see them all the time.  You can hardly go anywhere in the city without passing at least one NPC templar, and probably a dozen vNPC ones too.  Nobles a little less so, but I'm sure they're frequently seen around Traders, the bazaar, and traveling along the major roads in the city.

I don't think it's a logical assumption at all, though, that a noble or templar who hangs out in common establishments should expect people to stop bowing or addressing them as lord/lady (templar).  Now, they might make common "friends" who are often invited to sit and chat, but those people have by no means earned the right to eschew bowing.

P.S. This is all in the context of Allanak.  I understand Tuluk has some slightly different social rules where the nobles really do become somewhat familiar with the people, or some silly barbarian notion like that.  :wink:

[Gimfalisette]

But, a templar showing up in the Gaj should have a damned good reason for being there. "Patrolling" is not a damned good reason, or even a slightly appropriate reason. The city has a militia. It is the militia's job to do patrols.

The templars supervise the militia. Additionally, a templar can be anywhere s/he damn well pleases. If a templar wants to go in the Gaj to arrest someone, shake someone down, put a gem on someone, sell someone a merchant's license, yell at some soldiers, pick up a bottle of booze, or whatever other reason, the templar can do that. PROBABLY a templar won't hang out at the Gaj. But who are you to say they can't? That's between the templars and the rest of the nobles.

If a templar does -not- want to breed familiarity, then he shouldn't even be stepping foot into the filthiest low-caste commoner's bar in the "accessable" part of the city unless he has very specific business there. If he shows up every week, or every other week, or every three days, then he should learn to accept that some people who hang out there (or whose new players generate there for the first time) will consider that templar to pretty much be asking for familiarity and casual approach.

A templar or a noble in Allanak can HAVE SEX with your commoner character and still not "breed" familiarity. Thus it's ridiculous to say that merely hanging out in a tavern would do so.

It is no different, in my mind, as a rinthi hanging out in Trader's. You just don't do that, unless you have serious cause other than "Oh I just wanted to see who was around."

The reason 'rinthis don't hang out in Trader's is because they will be thrown out. It has nothing to do with having a serious reason to be there; they do not belong there, period, end of story, regardless what kind of reason they think they have.

[staggerlee]

To some extent, on an ooc level a player may sit back and think to themself "I want to impress on people that my character is untouchable, perhaps rather than going to the bars, or even contacting people through the Way I'll have a soldier bring them to me, and toss them at my feet."  Which is fine, and probably not a bad tactic.

However... Gimf is right.  We're talking a totally totalitarian society here.  I wouldn't want to be the person to explain to the templar "Oh sorry, I just kind of take you for granted because I see you so much, that's why I bumped into you on my way out the door and spilled my beer all over you."

[Troicha]

But, a templar showing up in the Gaj should have a damned good reason for being there. "Patrolling" is not a damned good reason, or even a slightly appropriate reason. The city has a militia. It is the militia's job to do patrols. If a templar does -not- want to breed familiarity, then he shouldn't even be stepping foot into the filthiest low-caste commoner's bar in the "accessable" part of the city unless he has very specific business there. If he shows up every week, or every other week, or every three days, then he should learn to accept that some people who hang out there (or whose new players generate there for the first time) will consider that templar to pretty much be asking for familiarity and casual approach.

I disagree, and I will explain myself with allegory.

Imagine a seedy bar in the bad part of town where the migrant workers and other types hang out, that may or may not have a criminal underbelly. It gets along just fine; not the prettiest place, but its patrons go there because that's where they feel they belong.

Now imagine that an agent from the FBI, suit and all, decided to come in. While you won't see people getting up to bow like you would in Armageddon, there will definitely be a ripple of unease, to say the least. People will stare and mutter under their breaths. They will feel uncomfortable. In Arm, they're too afraid of authority to do even that. In a migrant bar, there will likely be people there who hope he just doesn't notice them, because he could report them to the immigration police.

That's just one time. Now, imagine what would happen if the agent decided to start going there regularly, possibly even with a group of friends. There would be mutterings and strange looks, but in Armageddon, still deference to the templar. If they came back regularly enough, the bar's regular patrons would migrate to somewhere less dangerous, and the place would likely shut down, or at least radically change.

However, let me stress that, at least IG, the templar will be unwelcome and unwanted, but NO ONE is going to tell him that he "doesn't belong there." At most, the proprietor will complain along the correct political channels, because he's paying his bribes to the Templarate.

Let me reiterate: scum does not get comfortable with the Templarate. Scum AVOIDS the  Templarate, even if that means finding a different bar after some crazy Blue Robe (or the militia?) has taken a liking to the Gaj.

[Lizzie]

And if nobility and templars are seen that often in such a low-class establishment, and those same nobles and templars *seem* to choose that scummy place in favor of their high-class establishment which is closer to their own quarters...then that tells me, these particular nobles and templars are obviously out of favor with their respective families, or consider themselves to be inferior. For surely, people of quality would not choose to hang out in seedy establishments. They are better..their noses are more sensitive to stench, their skin too delicate to be surrounded by filth...their backsides too soft to sit on splintered chairs with no padding, their silk too pristine to be sullied by slime.

If I was a commoner who hung out at the Gaj, I would either stop hanging out there because obviously the "fancy folk" have decided it's their place now, and I no longer belong. Or - I would stay, quietly, and snicker when the fancy folk left because obviously the fancy folk aren't too fancy to slum it so regularly and casually.

[staggerlee]

Again... you're welcome to tell the templar he's a low life for hanging out in the Gaj.  I can just imagine how that'd go.

[Troicha]

You may very well stay and snicker, but that's more than a tad bit dangerous when said-same folk can have you drawn and quartered, or have you turned inside out while still alive, if they take a mind to.

I won't tell anyone their own character's personality, I'm just saying that it strikes me that most vNPCs don't think the risk/benefit ratio is very favourable.

[Marauder Moe]

Well I never said that commoners wouldn't snicker and make jokes behind a slumming noble/templar's back.  I hardly see that as becoming "familiar", though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I hope that this caste issue is seriously addressed in the next game. I hate being in the Gaj while everyone else in the Traders, and visa versa. And the other tavern is no longer a real option.

[amish overlord]

Templars can have a reason for slumming, looking for suspicious people etc. Noble have harder time explaining why slumming, maybe looking for recruit but might send an aide instead. A templar might be also looking for unsavory people to do things for them as well. So seeing a templar in low class bar while not exactly common, probably in my opinion isn't taboo as a noble.

Amish Overlord  

[Gimfalisette]

There's a huge range of things a noble or a templar can do to earn the disrespect of the PC/NPC/VNPC populace (including commoners), in either city. Yes, that may mean PCs/NPCs/VNPCs (including commoners)are snickering behind the backs of templars and nobles who are perceived as incompetent, stupid, politically idiotic, acting above themselves, acting below themselves, wearing the wrong fashions, sitting in the wrong tavern, having stupid/incompetent employees, etc.

That's an entirely different matter than the respect which WILL be shown to that same noble or templar when s/he is in your face or otherwise nearby. It doesn't matter how little a commoner thinks of that noble or templar, they'd be a fool to use anything other than proper modes of address and offer proper gestures of respect.

[Medena]

On Armageddon, the vast majority of Allanak commoners, who live and die by the mercy of the Highlord, firmly believe that nobles are nobles because they're better. The same holds true for the nobles, who assume their privileged position is correct because they are of better blood and finer material than a commoner. This attitude is reinforced by their benefits: literacy, which acquires near-mystical dimensions in an illiterate society; vast wealth; social status; and freedom from most of the laws of the city.

The noble who slums in the Gaj or who likes to go barefooted or who talks to magickers is still a noble and therefore better than you.  These aberrant behaviours will bring them censure from their peers no doubt and might affect where you, the commoner, place them in mental rankings.  If you toady up to nobles for possible future favours, you'd be less likely to do so with these ones, simply because they'd be less better placed in the noble world.  If you act out of fear of what a noble can do to you, again, your fear may be lesser because this noble would be less likely to call in a favour with a templar and have you killed.

But they are still better than you.  

[Troicha]

If you act out of fear of what a noble can do to you, again, your fear may be lesser because this noble would be less likely to call in a favour with a templar and have you killed.

While I agree with this, I just wanted to point something out. While

Nobles are, to a certain extent, above the laws of Allanak, due to their standing. This is not license to go out and kill commoners freely, but a noble who gets involved in a fight will probably not get hauled off to jail.

...wait, nevermind.

[Barzalene]

We don't need a bowing wave when a Templar stands by the door and looks down the length of the bar.

The only issue with this is, of course, that sometimes templar and noble PCs get pissy when they walk in and you don't bow to them immediately upon seeing them.

It's happened enough that I think a lot of people just find it easier to emote bowing the second they notice the important PC as opposed to not doing it and potentially facing IC wrath, despite the fact that a lot of people on the GDB think instabowing is stupid.

Unless the staff officially puts it in the docs that it's not considered social faux-pas to not bow the second you see a noble/templar that isn't of unusually high rank, then I figure you're going to keep seeing noble and templar PCs who expect it.

I kind of like the whole insta-bow and tremble in fear experience. Realistic or not.

[amish overlord]

Back in the day insta bow was expect and good for life expectancy, remember nobles just killing people for not bowing(think was a tor remember specifically) I also remember one time losing link in and tavern finding myself, dead around this time. Had suspiciously was killed for this reason, but can't be sure. Fortunately this doesn't seem to happen anymore.

Amish Overlord  

[LauraMars]

Seeing templars in weird places doesn't bug me at all.

Templars (well, Allanak templars) seem like corrupt police chiefs.  They are the ultimate, and can do whatever the hell they want.  They're the law.    Nobles are the movie stars who don't get arrested for driving drunk because they're bribing the law, and when they are arrested, it's a big scandal.  Because they're bribing the law they can sometimes use the organization to their advantage, like getting an upstart commoner knocked off.

In both cases, commoners are dirt, and the only people who really get to snicker at the offending templar or noble without consequences are people in the same social strata.  I guess average joe commoners can snicker if they want, but it isn't gonna do much besides put the commoner in danger if they get caught at it.

Jihaens and Lirathans seem like warrior monks and high priestesses.

I guess that's a separate discussion.

[Fathi]

This is just me speculating, but when I think of how the average commoner in Allanak (grebbers, whores, Bynners, etc) would react to a templar or noble slumming in the Gaj, I can't really picture there being much an urge to snicker at all. 'Nak is a cutthroat, brutal society where favours and ass-kissing with those in higher social strata are a way to stay alive.

Personally, my 'Nakki born-and-raised commoner archetype wouldn't snicker after Lady Oash leaves the tavern because my buddies at the bar have a lot to be gained from reporting me and a lot to lose if they're seen snickering along with me.

[Lizzie]

I guess you are all just missing my point then. I am not explaining myself very well. You are comparing templars to real world corrupt police officers. You should stop doing that. There is no comparison. Corrupt police officers don't show up in full-dress uniform without backup, to a biker bar and sit down at the bar. That would be suicide, and the bikers there would be more than happy to assist with that suicide. Don't make comparisons. They just don't work.

A templar considers -himself- above commoners. He expects commoners to consider him above them. THey are dirt under his feet, unworthy of his presence. If he gives his presence to them, it is a HUGE GIFT that they should be grateful for. If he shows up every single day, it ceases to be a big deal. It is no longer special. His presence is no longer worth oohing and ahhing over. Sort of like the presence of magickers that everyone was complaining about. See enough of them often enough in public places and it just becomes too difficult, ICly and OOCly, to really care.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Since I don't see anywhere in the documents the stipulation that Templars/nobles can't walk into a seedy bar...

Templars can do whatever they deem IC for their character.  My character will do whatever I deem IC for my character.

If something's grossly inappropriate, the Storytellers can yell at them/me.

[staggerlee]

I do feel like I should probably play the devil's advocate now.

The advantage to templars avoiding the Gaj is of course that they can pay someone else to go for them.  I'm sure a templar could patrol the city themself, but it's more fun for everyone if they're sending militia, or aides with messages, or buying people to be their eyes and ears.

All in all, the more you delegate and avoid doing things, the more players you keep involved and active.

[Mood]

What if the templar is just tired of listening to bantering nobles in the Trader's, and wants a strong drink without the bullshit?

[Troicha]

The Gaj DOES have the best public booze in Allanak.

Just saying.

[Rhyden]

Templars aren't public.

They're pubic.

No wait...

[Dalmeth]

What if the templar is just tired of listening to bantering nobles in the Trader's, and wants a strong drink without the bullshit?

He or she can retire to a lavish apartment and drink something far superior to the swill served at a bar.  If a Templar finds themselves slumming it in a bar too often, they should find themselves the subject of derision by the upper crust of society.  Familiarity breeds a degree of disrespect among the general populace, and they should grow to expect certain responses from commoners that others of their position might consider insulting.

Not to mention the fact that templars rule in large part by fear.  No one can deny that there is a segment of the population of either city that wouldn't mind killing a templar for that reason alone.

[Mood]

The Gaj DOES have the best public booze in Allanak.

Just saying.

Truth.

Real men (and women) do their drinking at the Gaj.