A Note for Sneaky Types

[Synthesis]

A long time ago, checking your inventory (typing 'i') while hidden would break your hide status.  Apparently this was a bug, and they've since fixed it.

After running a few tests, I've come to the conclusion that typing 'eq' still breaks your hide status.  (Yes, I bugrepped it in game already.)

This is a big discovery for me, since I'm a fairly paranoid eq checker.

So, all you elite sneaky types out there who keep getting spotted...next time you can't remember if you're wielding your terradin knife or your grishen knife, do a "look self" instead of 'eq' to check.

[mansa]

And..

'Stand' breaks your hide.  Which I like, because I want some command that -does- break your hide.

It also resets your ldesc.

[LauraMars]

"Vis" breaks your hide, but to those who are hiding it says "you are not invisible!" but your hide is still broken so it makes me uncomfortable to type "vis."

I still use it though, what's up with that.

[Ghost]

look does not break the hide, but exa/examine does.

So you may look/look in and stay hidden, but you should not examine

[cyberpatrol_735]

I believe watch also breaks hide status.

[LauraMars]

Typing 'exits' breaks your hide.

[Pantoufle]

Oh yeah, well typing 'moan' breaks hide and it's not even a command!

How d'ya like them apples!

[Agent_137]

why the shit isn't this all documented?

or at least a list of hide approved commands?

this is the "guess the command" mini-game, and doesn't belong in an RPI.

[Rindan]

why the shit isn't this all documented?

or at least a list of hide approved commands?

this is the "guess the command" mini-game, and doesn't belong in an RPI.

The entire hide system is really[/b] poorly documented at the moment.  Not only is there a game of 'guess the commands', but there is also some ambiguity as to  how hide actually works.  Sneak and hide got changed, but as far as I can tell, the help files did not.

So, here is a simple question.  Under the new hide system  you can (from what I understand) hide, then sneak.  The question is, how in the hell does this actually work?  Do you do a hide check in each room as you move?  Does failing a sneak check un-hide you?  If you get un-hidden, do you try and rehide the next time you move?

The reason why this is important is because it determines how you play.  If once you fail a sneak or hide you unhide and stay unhidden, then that means that you should occasionally re-hide... providing that trying to hide again doesn't  un-hide you before re-hiding you.

The mechanics matter a great deal in this case, as if you misunderstand the mechanics you could change from sneaking across the city unseen, or  you could wander out in the city perfectly in the open without knowing it.  

I personally wouldn't mind some clarification as to how in the hell hide and sneak actually work these days.  Playing guess and check to figure out game mechanics with the city guard is less then appealing.

[LauraMars]

Oh, FYI. Watch doesn't break hide now.

[flurry]

I'm all for stuff like this being documented.

I shudder to think of how this kind of thing was discovered.  

OOC: Can you see me now?  

OOC: How about now?

OOC: Now?

:?

[Vessol]

I agree with Rindan, it's confusing.

[Gimfalisette]

So, here is a simple question.  Under the new hide system  you can (from what I understand) hide, then sneak.  The question is, how in the hell does this actually work?  Do you do a hide check in each room as you move?  Does failing a sneak check un-hide you?  If you get un-hidden, do you try and rehide the next time you move?

When you hide, then sneak (or the reverse, doesn't matter as long as you do them in the same room), you do not do a hide check in each room. You do a sneak check, and if your sneak is successful, then you stay hidden. Failing sneak breaks hide. If you break hide, you must re-hide to be hidden again.

For a character with maxed (or near-maxed) sneak/hide, it is very possible to hide and then sneak all the way across a city without breaking now. It's very viable to be crim flagged now and evade jail time this way. There are ways to test in game whether or not you are able to do this, even if you're not crim flagged.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I'm all for stuff like this being documented.

I shudder to think of how this kind of thing was discovered.  

OOC: Can you see me now?  

OOC: How about now?

OOC: Now?

:?

Play hide and seek with some random NPC hunting you.

Sneak in, wait, player looks at you, think bah.. not hidden.

Never used ooc.

[Agent_137]

Also, I assume, if a mugger makes a comment about you, well, he can see you. Good way to check.

[Agent_137]

Also, I assume, if a mugger makes a comment about you, well, he can see you. Good way to check.

[Morgenes]

Staying hidden while moving requires strong stealth abilities.

To me that implies you get a sneak check to stay hidden while moving.  If you fail, you are revealed.  The other comments in this thread offering IC ways to check your hide status are valid options.

[Rindan]

Staying hidden while moving requires strong stealth abilities.

To me that implies you get a sneak check to stay hidden while moving.  If you fail, you are revealed.  The other comments in this thread offering IC ways to check your hide status are valid options.

That is a pretty archaic word to coded interpretation.  This is something that should be spelled out pretty clearly in plain English.  The reason for this is simple.  

Say I am moderately skilled at hiding and sneaking.  I want to sneak from one side of the city to the other.  ICly, I know exactly what I want to do.  I want to move from the Gaj to the 'rinth and be as inconspicuous about it as possible.  There is not a slim chance in hell you are going to figure out how to code wise from the help files.  Common sense thinking using the help files would tell you to type hide once, sneak once, and then walk from the Gaj to the 'rinth.  In reality, what you REALLY want to do is hide, sneak, and stop every few rooms to re-hide because you might have failed a sneak and come un-hidden.  Even with the information on this thread, it is still not entirely clear what to do.  Does typing 'hide' while hidden cause you to come un-hidden?  If it does, you want to be some place 'safe' each time you try to re-hide.

The code works in an archaic fashion.  It should be that you type in one command and your character knows enough to do whatever it takes to stay hidden during his entire trip.  Instead, we have a code that is working in an obscure way that no one is likely to understand without resorting to some OOC trickery and some OOC testing.  It is not clear from the help file that if you try and sneak/hide, you do it for a while until you fail, and then you need to 'refresh' or attempt.

I am sympathetic to the archaic code and the less-then-logical way that sneak/hide work.  I know the system is rigged together with ducttape and pieces of Duki code.  That is exactly why the mechanics should be well documented.  The challenge of sneaking should be an IC one, not an OOC challenge of 'guess the game mechanics it takes to make your character do what you want to do ICly'.  I personally feel sorry for the poor n00b that relies on help files you tries to do some simple things like sneak from point A to point B or check his inventory.  That poor n00b is going to burn through more then one character before getting even an inkling as to how the code works.

[Gimfalisette]

Say I am moderately skilled at hiding and sneaking.  I want to sneak from one side of the city to the other.  ICly, I know exactly what I want to do.  I want to move from the Gaj to the 'rinth and be as inconspicuous about it as possible.  There is not a slim chance in hell you are going to figure out how to code wise from the help files.  Common sense thinking using the help files would tell you to type hide once, sneak once, and then walk from the Gaj to the 'rinth.  In reality, what you REALLY want to do is hide, sneak, and stop every few rooms to re-hide because you might have failed a sneak and come un-hidden.  Even with the information on this thread, it is still not entirely clear what to do.  Does typing 'hide' while hidden cause you to come un-hidden?  If it does, you want to be some place 'safe' each time you try to re-hide.

The code works in an archaic fashion.  It should be that you type in one command and your character knows enough to do whatever it takes to stay hidden during his entire trip.  Instead, we have a code that is working in an obscure way that no one is likely to understand without resorting to some OOC trickery and some OOC testing.  It is not clear from the help file that if you try and sneak/hide, you do it for a while until you fail, and then you need to 'refresh' or attempt.

I am sympathetic to the archaic code and the less-then-logical way that sneak/hide work.  I know the system is rigged together with ducttape and pieces of Duki code.  That is exactly why the mechanics should be well documented.  The challenge of sneaking should be an IC one, not an OOC challenge of 'guess the game mechanics it takes to make your character do what you want to do ICly'.  I personally feel sorry for the poor n00b that relies on help files you tries to do some simple things like sneak from point A to point B or check his inventory.  That poor n00b is going to burn through more then one character before getting even an inkling as to how the code works.

While I agree that the help files are not actually very helpful on this issue and could be a lot clearer, I was able to figure out how the code works by reading the posts from when the changes were made last year. So it's not impossible for someone new to sneaky stuff to figure this out, it's just challenging.

When I have taught noobs about sneaky stuff in game, I always teach them about sneak and hide and admonish them "Don't commit any crimes until you know you can get all the way across the city without being seen!" Then I hide/sneak and drag them along to me to the kind of location you can't get into without successfully sneak/hiding, by way of demonstration. IMO, noobs shouldn't be trying to get into sneaky stuff without buddying up to someone who can help them. And really, there's plenty of people around who can and will help. Heck, if you're playing a noob sneaky in Tuluk, just go ask a Lirathan to pal you up with someone.

If your character is good enough at sneaking and hiding, then it really IS a matter of just typing those commands in once and being able to roam at will without detection. But it also makes sense to me that if you're not good enough, you'll become unhidden, which is the way it works now.

The quick test while you're on the street for knowing if you're still hidden? "Look" at an NPC. Notice that there is a different message to you when you're hidden versus unhidden.

If you are hidden, typing "hide" will not make you unhidden, but it will re-hide you...so if you fail at your re-hide, then you're not hidden anymore.

[a strange shadow]

I think the 'look' thing is a bug, and I've bugged it at least once.

You should not be able to tell if you're hidden unless an N/PC reacts to you.

[Jherlen]

I agree with the shadow, and I have been hoping someone would fix that before it got posted on the GDB...

.... too late.

[Morgenes]

The code works in an archaic fashion.  It should be that you type in one command and your character knows enough to do whatever it takes to stay hidden during his entire trip.  Instead, we have a code that is working in an obscure way that no one is likely to understand without resorting to some OOC trickery and some OOC testing.  It is not clear from the help file that if you try and sneak/hide, you do it for a while until you fail, and then you need to 'refresh' or attempt.

If you were walking around on the streets, trying not to be noticed, how would you know if you weren't noticed?   How do you know you need to work harder at hiding, or blending in with the crowd?  Might it be that someone somehow reacts to your presence?  Or do you 'just know' and subconsciously hide yourself again without realizing you were detected?

Hide and sneak, as currently implemented in Armageddon are pretty far from Diku or antiquated.  They work as they are intended to.  Not an easy skill to master, but when you are good enough and if you are smart enough, they are very powerful skills when used in combination.

Also, while sneak and hide are OFTEN used in conjuction, you don't HAVE to use them together.  If you move quickly enough, sneaking without hiding is almost as good as being invisible.  [Edited to add against PCs mainly]

Thanks for the heads up on that bug, it'll be fixed next reboot.

Edited again to add that help files that are ambiguous or only give hints at the way things work are intentional.  Part of the mystery of Armageddon is learning how everything truly works.  If we spelled everything out to you, where would the challenge be in that?

[Rindan]

If you were walking around on the streets, trying not to be noticed, how would you know if you weren't noticed?   How do you know you need to work harder at hiding, or blending in with the crowd?  Might it be that someone somehow reacts to your presence?  Or do you 'just know' and subconsciously hide yourself again without realizing you were detected?

Consider the obvious scenario.  I just committed a crime.  I need to sneak/hide my way to the 'rinth.  Along the way there are a handful of militia and normal civilians.  I start sneak/hiding my way.  I pass one soldier without incident because I blended in well.  As I am moving down the street, I suddenly fail a sneak.  A civilian NPC sees me, but doesn't care.  I continue on.

Under the current system, for the entire trip after I have failed, I am now visible.  Having failed one sneak, my hide is lost for the entire trip.  The longer your trip, the more likely you are to drop your hide for the entire trip.  In fact, once you are past the guards (assuming you didn't run into any, as you are actually visible at this point), you would still be merrily wandering through the 'rinth without hide on.  This doesn't make any IC sense what-so-ever.  Failing to conceal yourself once should result in you being visible for that one failure, not for the rest of your 50 room journey.  

It kinda-sorta makes sense that if you are shadowing someone, being spotted once means that they see you for now on, but it makes no sense that being spotted once on one side of the city means that you are always spotted on the other side.

Clearly, the wise thing to do if you are less then perfect in hiding/sneaking is to stop every few rooms and re-hide.  If you are making a true effort to remain stealthy, then just because for one section of one street you looked conspicuous doesn't mean that you look conspicuous as you make your way through the rest of the city.

Personally, I think that the code should spell out that one sneak failure results in un-hiding you, or the code should be altered such that hide is a toggle.  If hiding is 'on', you roll a skill check in each room and remain hidden if you succeed.  If you fail the hide check, no warning is given, but everyone can see you.  When you move to another room, you roll the skill check again.  

Under the current system (from my understanding), a less-then-perfect sneak/hider moves a few rooms, fails a sneak, and from that point on is visible.  Under the proposed system, someone who is a poor sneak/hider would appear and disappear as they fail or don't fail their hide/sneak checks moving from room to room.  Personally, I find this more realistic then having on failed sneak check result in being visible if you wander over to the other side of the city.

Edited again to add that help files that are ambiguous or only give hints at the way things work are intentional. Part of the mystery of Armageddon is learning how everything truly works. If we spelled everything out to you, where would the challenge be in that?

Uh, the "challenge" would be role playing IC actions in the world.  The challenge should not be puzzling out which damn mystery buttons you need to OOCly push to get your character to take a very simple IC action.  Trying to sneaking down a street in a manner that soldiers will not notice you is a simple IC goal.  The poorly documented OOC complexities behind it don't add mystery in any good sense of the word.  Not use hyperbole, but if you really want to inject 'mystery' in the game by this logic, we should take out the detailed help files on emoting or how to interact with NPC merchants.  That too would add mystery to the game in that people could not get there character to ICly do what they want them to do.  Personally, I don't consider that to be a good thing.

Let's save mystery for the IC game world, not for deciphering which OOC commands you have to pump into the game to get your character to do IC things.

[Pantoufle]

How do I know if I'm hidden when I try to hide?  Uhm, shouldn't it be obvious?

All other skills operate on the idea that in order to get better at something you must fail at it - and therefore, you must KNOW you're failing at it.  By this logic, no one's sneak/hide skills should ever advance since we don't really know if we're failing or not.  For this reason, I never understood why stealth types were prevented from knowing when their skills work.  It seems pretty obvious to me.  If I slip behind a thicket of shrubs in the real world, I think I'm going to at least have SOME idea how much cover I have.  Okay, yeah.  Sure, sure. Maybe I won't be 100% certain I am completely camouflaged, but for all the reasons stated above, I'd say that a code where you are 100% sure when the skill works or not is more realistic than the current code (where 100% of the time you don't have the foggiest idea if it's working).

I'm very interested to hear the rationale behind how exactly we're not supposed to know if we're hidden successfully or not and how (if at all) this is meant to be realistic.

[Agent_137]

I agree with Rindan, though I'd be happy to have the improved coded socked away for arma 2.