I hate magickers, official thread.

[Doppelganger]

If they needed mundane clans and mundane friends for anything worthwhile, it could be their weakness, but they don't need them by design.

As for the Faithful coming, I am all thrilled, but at least rogue magickers do not need to worry about southern Templars who randomly trample more characters then your average Faithful sees in his lifetime.

[Dan]

Not to mention you cannot cast with anything in your hands, so if you are bashed before you finish the spell that might save you, well, you are pretty much dead against any soldier worth his salt.

Magickers don't really have too many virtual weaknesses, they are there and very real.

Someone already stated that magickers dont go looking for fights until they are powerful, well, most of them do not. The ones that do probably never let loose a spell before they die. The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker. So basically if your character is going around pissing off people that can kill you that easily, well then mayby your character just plain deserves to die.

[LoD]

Not to mention you cannot cast with anything in your hands...

No?  I wouldn't be so sure.

The point Doppleganger was making is that all of the karma classes are governed by a system of checks and balances.  Half-giants are strong, but notoriously stupid, kind, and curious.  Muls are strong and smart, but 99% of them are born into captivity and are easily recognizeable at a distance for what they are.  Desert elves are hardy and agile, but they are limited by a strict cultural code of conduct and a sense of tribal belonging.

Magickers are supposed to be policed by the environment.  Sorcerers are supposed to be immediately hated/hunted by everyone that notices them, but what should be the most prominent threats are usually represented by virtual entities (i.e. tribes, sorcerer-kings, other highly magickal beings) or NPC's.  Elementalists are supposed to be hated/hunted, but several players know how to avoid detection by their fellow players; renting aparments, casting sporadically, and being patient as their magicker reaches a level of proficiency which allows them to interact with the playerbase at a stage capable of handling themselves.

The "checks and balances" for magickers are largely virtual when you actually consider what forces in the world are keeping them in check.  Players -might- happen upon them if they are careless or sloppy, but they were given more "teeth" now, and several magickers are capable of holding their own long enough to flee.  Magickers that are but a few playing days old have the potential to branch spells that are capable of not only holding their own, but swiftly overcoming mundane threats.

No other class/guild in the game has the ability to take a sufficient supply of food/water, retreat to a remote portion of the gameworld, and become as powerful as either an elementalist or sorcerer.  In fact, most would consider it "cheesy" or "twinkish" if the other classes did the exact same thing.  That's what's unfortunate about the system in my mind.

Things I would like to see change with magickers:

1. Initial defensive abilities increased.
2. Initial and early offensive abilities decreased.
3. Provided more outlets for non-violent social interaction with mundanes.
4. Rate of learning decreased.
5. Total number of magick/psionic PC's in game slightly decreased.
6. Magickal combat, in general, slowed down.

Who knows what will be the outcome in the new game, but those things would probably help to make magick a more rare and mysterious part of the gameworld again, both because of the slow skill progression, and the shift in culture where mundane encounters with magickers are no longer mandated as fearful, violent, and often lethal affairs.

-LoD

[Doppelganger]

if you are bashed before you finish the spell that might save you, well, you are pretty much dead
.
.
.
The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker

There isn't any contradiction here, not at all.

[Larrath]

if you are bashed before you finish the spell that might save you, well, you are pretty much dead
.
.
.
The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker

There isn't any contradiction here, not at all.

It's not a contradiction at all.

First of all, magickers are much more vulnerable than most people realize - even the powerful ones.  The thing is that while magickers will take the time and effort to plan and prepare for their encounters, most people attacking them will just run in and kill.  This is why they're blasted away - and even then not always.
If a mundane character prepares properly before they go out to hunt a magicker, they stand a *very* good chance of winning provided they do just a slight bit of research; checking what that magicker's particular strengths and weaknesses are, for instance.

Secondly, going prepared against a magicker usually also means not going on your own.  One mundane against a magicker is a battle that will end very quickly, one way or the other.  Two mundanes against one magicker is a battle that almost always ends with the magicker dying.

Plan and research.  If you use a bit of strategy, it's far from impossible to kill even the most powerful magickers.  If the magicker you're going up against is capable of landing crushing blows, use ranged weapons.  If they have a powerful defense, find a way around it.  If they're stealthy, out-maneuver them and find their hiding place.


A 5+ karma character with over 25 days played isn't supposed to be killed with one bash and four good hits, sorry.  You're just going to have to work harder, just like the magickers themselves do in order to keep alive.  Magickers that don't know how to be careful tend to die very quickly.



And finally, to add to the list of 'virtual' problems magickers have to deal with:
1 - generally being unable to live in a safe city.
2 - other magickers.
3 - finding a safe shelter, especially early on.
4 - getting food and water.
5 - getting lost in sandstorms.
6 - a few specific NPCs.
7 - gemmed elementalists.
8 - twinky guild-sniffers.
9 - extreme lack of interaction; try that one for three RL months.

You'd be surprised just how difficult it is to "make a magicker and sit in a cave until you're super-powerful".  Twinks will be twinks and some people don't mind idling in a cave with a bot (or whatever) to practice their spells, but generally speaking it's not nearly as easy as people think.

I'd imagine that at least two thirds of all magickers die before they can attain any sort of power or significance.  That's a lot.

[Twilight]

Perhaps we have different values for power and significance, because I would say 90%.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Yeah... I really have to question who these uber-three-day-old-magickers are. I've played a lot of magickers, most of them living to five days or more, and I've never been 'uber'. Heck, most weren't even able to defend themselves, and died as soon as they met another aggressive PC.
So where are all these super-strong, super 'young' magickers? 'Cause I've never met one. And I've certainly never been one.
I smell a straw man.

[Tisiphone]

I can absolutely guarantee that, even assuming 12 hour a day spam-casting, there is at least one type of 10 day magicker out there who couldn't win a fight with a pick-pocket.

[Doppelganger]

I didn't say magickers are invincible, Larrath. There are always chances and possibilities, but my original point was that those chances against average magicker are much lower then chances against average half-giant. All these difficulties you describe exist, but I honestly believe that advantages they gain over mundanes cover those difficulties with overkill. And that is the reason why magickers are so popular now and why there are so many complaints about them. And that is why magick documentation seems to be written for VNPCs alone and that is why I'd like staff to adapt the rest of the world to changed magicker PCs, instead of discussing unicode characters.

I remember a year ago Cenghiz said that his magickers were forced to kill about 30 attacking warriors and never died themselves. I didn't count for him, but I see how it is possible. Smart ganging you describe is possible too, but I doubt that someone can honestly say that his warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.
Seriously, PvP looks like very odd example of magicker's weakness.

As for the list of problems, those are not exclusive for any class in particular, they are results of the way of life chosen for the character. It depends on what we compare, rinthi magickers to mundane rats, gemmers to tavern-idlers, magick raiders to mundane raiders. Within these groups of interests problems will be roughly the same, but magickers are able to deal with them more effectively.

[manonfire]

I doubt that someone can honestly say that his warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.

I'll say it.

Warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.

Want to know how? It's just one word.

Subdue.

/thread

[Synthesis]

I wouldn't bet my PC's life on his ability to subdue a magicker, if I were you.  That kind of clueless assertion is what gets a lot of newbies killed, thinking that they can get the upper hand.

[manonfire]

If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X magicker, then you're already betting your character's life.

Beyond getting the jump on a magicker, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of thing to have in your arsenal.

[jhunter]

There are always chances and possibilities, but my original point was that those chances against average magicker are much lower then chances against average half-giant.

Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.

[jhunter]

Yeah... I really have to question who these uber-three-day-old-magickers are. I've played a lot of magickers, most of them living to five days or more, and I've never been 'uber'. Heck, most weren't even able to defend themselves, and died as soon as they met another aggressive PC.
So where are all these super-strong, super 'young' magickers? 'Cause I've never met one. And I've certainly never been one.
I smell a straw man.

*touches his finger to his nose*

[Tisiphone]

If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X magicker, then you're already betting your character's life.

Beyond getting the jump on a magicker, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of thing to have in your arsenal.

If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X PC, then you're already betting your character's life.

Beyond getting the jump on a PC, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of a thing to have in your arsenal.

[Doppelganger]

Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.

Let's cut it down to simple "yes" or "no" question. Is mundane Half-Giant more appealing for powerseeker then human Krathi or Rukkian?

I will trust your word, and if the answer is "yes", I will never say a word on magickers again. Not a big sacrifice on my part, since everything is said already, so go ahead and shut me up.

[Agent_137]

dan, i killed this thread for FOUR days before you brought it back.
way to fucking go.

[Nile]

We need a raider group at the start of arm 2. To wipe out all the newbie magickers....Nod self.

[Dan]

Well, it already seems dead again since people have begun comparing magickers to half-giants and are organizing magicker-hunting raider grounds.

I wash my hands of it now.

[jhunter]

Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.

Let's cut it down to simple "yes" or "no" question. Is mundane Half-Giant more appealing for powerseeker then human Krathi or Rukkian?

I will trust your word, and if the answer is "yes", I will never say a word on magickers again. Not a big sacrifice on my part, since everything is said already, so go ahead and shut me up.

If I were a powerseeker, yes. If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification, to go out and kill someone who had just killed my pc (a stretch into OOC twinkyland) you'd better believe I'd go app a hg warrior, choose str as my primary stat and bust a subdue/kill on their ass.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that I would do such a thing nor am I condoning doing such a thing.

[Doppelganger]

If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification

What is this "if" condition about? If you start your reply with "bullshit", I'd expect you to be brave and firm when stating your own opinion. Unless, of course, the "bullshit" word was a quick preview to what you are going to say next.

What about long term gratification, or is ability to pursue long term goals reserved for stellar roleplayers alone? I've asked you about powerseekers, but I didn't expect you to enlighten me about mindset of imbecilles who are mentally too weak to keep their characters alive and thus are concerned about first few days balance.

As much as I surprised with your outlook on what power is, I have to trust your opinion as promised. Though I still believe that you should have started your last post with something like

If I were an idiot, yes.

[Tisiphone]

mmm, I lovr it when the forums start substituting flames for well-thought, rational replies. Remind me to get the marshmallows.

[Oasis]

I know of a magicker who branched their first two spells at 11 hours, and two again at 19 hours played. That was through active training, but not full spam-casting. Sizeable power in less than 5 days is very possible if you decide to make it your goal.

I also happen to know that the magicker in question, during their first 12 hours in the wilderness, met no less than 5 or 6 different magickers, two of whom attacked unprovoked and without a word. It could be a fluke, but judging by the reports of many players, it's not far from what is to be expected lately.

As for the half-giant versus magicker, the only thing the giant has is immense offense, something that most magickers also gain. The giant doesn't learn how to completely disappear at the flick of a hand, how to create food and water, defend themselves almost completely from many types of damage, and all those other nice things that magickers can do depending on their element. And if the giant wants to train his skills, it happens through the risk of death with every challenging fight he enters, and at a progress many times slower than any magicker. He also has the tedious chore of roleplaying a retard.

Then there's the illusion of magickers being in the hands of responsible players. I wish it was so, but I know of cases where magicker special applications were approved to players who had been here for as little as six months. One particular player whose name shall not be mentioned had a 3 karma application approved despite the fact that I had submitted complaints about the player's blatant twinking and horrible roleplay more than once, and I doubt I'm the only one who did. Some of the worst roleplay I have ever seen during my time on this mud was from an Elkrosian. Don't assume that the player of a restricted role is responsible or mature.

[jhunter]

mmm, I lovr it when the forums start substituting flames for well-thought, rational replies. Remind me to get the marshmallows.

Seriously.

[jhunter]

If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification

What is this "if" condition about? If you start your reply with "bullshit", I'd expect you to be brave and firm when stating your own opinion. Unless, of course, the "bullshit" word was a quick preview to what you are going to say next.

What about long term gratification, or is ability to pursue long term goals reserved for stellar roleplayers alone? I've asked you about powerseekers, but I didn't expect you to enlighten me about mindset of imbecilles who are mentally too weak to keep their characters alive and thus are concerned about first few days balance.

As much as I surprised with your outlook on what power is, I have to trust your opinion as promised. Though I still believe that you should have started your last post with something like

If I were an idiot, yes.

Is there any point to this post other than to argue for the sake of arguing and trying to be insulting?