Something to Think about During the War

[LoD]

How do you stop a class of people so far above and beyond the norm from becoming heroes to the groups they serve?

By ruling with an iron fist and controlling information.  The public knows what templars want them to know.  They revere whom templars wants them to revere.  The Sorcerer-King and his templars have had a good many decades of practice in telling his people just what and whom they should worship.

Magickers are a troublesome lot with advantages and obvious disadvantages.  While they are controlled, and even used, I doubt the templarate would want to give any of them the idea that they're not constantly one step away from being murdered with a single thought if they don't immediately obey.  Hero status may swell a magicker's head, make them forget their place, grow bold and come to believe they were more to the City than a carefully crafted tool.

As someone mentioned, I believe magickers that perform well would be rewarded quietly and secretly, while the City would find a less controversial and more easily manipulated subject to hold up for the masses to congratulate.

-LoD

[Angela Christine]

If you said that the average person doesn't understand the difference between a Preserver and a Defiler I'd agree 100%.  A sorcerer is a sorcerer, and just because he isn't raping the land right now doesn't mean he won't do it later.

Even in Tuluk people should be far more concerned about a Defiler than an elementalist.  Elementalists are blamed for destroying part of the city.  Defilers are blamed for Killing the World.  A krathi can set your garden on fire, but you can re-plant the next day.  A Defiler can drain all the life from the land so that nothing will ever grow there again.

They both cast spells, but only Sorcerers gather, and gathering is what destroys life.

Skill Gather  (Magick)  


This skill allows your character to collect magickal energy from nearby lifeforce. All magick and all life are inextricably linked, and thus whenever anyone wishes to accumulate sufficient 'mana' for spellcasting, one must drain the necessary energy from a lifeforce.

There are two schools of gathering: one which brutally takes life from the local flora, and another which attempts to collect energy from oneself. The activity of gathering will inflict physical harm to the participant, the extent of the damage is based on your character's skill proficiency and relationship to the land.

Defiling, as the first method is called, will typically cause a premature aging effect on the sorcerer. In addition, as is well known, recuperation occurs at a greater rate where more life exists, and so defiling causes an indirect harm both to the defiler and all other nearby lifeforms. Lastly, the accumulation of magick by defiling creates a thin film of ash near the sorcerer, thus marking his/her presence.

Once a sorcerer has begun defiling in earnest (i.e. an unfavorable relationship to the land), it will become more and more painful to preserve. In order to return to the path of the preserver (as sorcerers who do not take the Land's energy are known) the defiler must find arable land and water it continuously until his/her relationship with the land is restored to at least "neutral" status.

The rulers of most centers of civilization make no distinction between preservers and defilers, and sorcerers of any sort are strictly outlawed. Gathering may alert the templars to a sorcerer's presence.


Syntax:


gather <amount> <source>

Examples:


(Preserving)
> gather 15 self

(Defiling)
> gather 20 land
See also:


guild_sorcerer, magick_basics, stat

Don't roll them all together, they are very different.  Making them the same makes Sorcerers less scary, and deprives elementalists of a useful place in society.


The law also has a stronger interest in keeping Sorcerers down.  A sorcerer has the possibility of evolving into a Sorcerer-King, with the ability to share power with his own Templars and eventually to become a threat to the other Sorcerer-God-Kings.  The Templarate of both cities should be much more concerned with Sorcery than Elemental magick.



Angela Christine

[Gimfalisette]

My train of thought here from LoD's guns/armament analogy is:

Guns...gang members...drug dealers...rappers...idolized by the masses...

Yeah, there's no way that anything so dangerous and antisocial could ever come to be seen as heroic, or to be lauded as celebrities. Especially in a well-adjusted place like Allanak.

Not even the same at ALL. Those are all people. They have no weird abilities. Furthermore, our societies are completely and utterly different. We love individuals with interesting mindsets and abilities. Zalanthans don't. At the root, Zalanthans are extremely jealous of a magicker's ability. Sometimes conciously, often subconciously. That is the root of the hatred as well as fear of those powers. It isn't like someone is in a gang. It is like someone is an alien who has the abiltiy to melt your mind. And you cannot compare the two cultures - they are apples and oranges.

Cegar, respectfully, I think you completely missed my point.

-- It is human nature to respect, fear, and desire power. (This is not an attribute of any one culture, it is an attribute of all.)
-- It is human nature to want to align oneself to power in order to receive the benefits thereof.
-- It is also human nature to rationalize the reality of how power is taken and held in order to further one's own goals.
-- Magick is obviously very powerful. It's even more clearly powerful now to mundane characters who are seeing it in operation during the war.
-- Just because a type of power is seen as antisocial or destructive does not mean that it won't be adulated by some part of a culture, even though it may be reviled by another part. Gang-banging rappers are one example. TV shows/movies about the Mafia is another example. There are examples all around us. Adulation follows -power-.

All of this together makes it highly possible for a cult of mundane magick-lovers to arise, unless they are squished by the templarate as LoD suggests would have to be done.

And actually, I can compare cultures all I want. I have a degree in Anthropology

[LoD]

Even in Tuluk people should be far more concerned about a Defiler than an elementalist.  Elementalists are blamed for destroying part of the city.  Defilers are blamed for Killing the World.

Yes, but how can you explain to a Tuluki that lost his family, career, and home to elemental magick that they should be more concerned with sorcerers?  I agree that "people in the know" would be more concerned with them, but not your average joe commoner, especially in the northlands.

Don't roll them all together, they are very different.  Making them the same makes Sorcerers less scary, and deprives elementalists of a useful place in society.

The law also has a stronger interest in keeping Sorcerers down.  A sorcerer has the possibility of evolving into a Sorcerer-King, with the ability to share power with his own Templars and eventually to become a threat to the other Sorcerer-God-Kings.  The Templarate of both cities should be much more concerned with Sorcery than Elemental magick.

You have to look at who is "rolling them together".  Northern?  Southern?  Elven tribes?  Southern commoners?  Southern templars?

I agree 100% that each Sorcerer-King and his Templars would be much more concerned about sorcerers than with elementalists, more because they represent a threat to their power than an interest in global safety.  Beyond these people who are schooled, trained, and exposed to the differences in magicks, I don't think most people would recognize the distinction.

Southern folk may understand that a "Sorcerer" was worse than an "Elementalist" if discussing the subject in a tavern, but if they were confronted by the two forces somewhere in the world -- I don't think they would really be in a position to understand the difference:

If a group of hunters were riding in the desert sands when something like this happened:

Someone shouts, in sirihish:
   "You have invaded my lands, and will die for your transgressions!"

Magickal currents swirl about someone.

Someone utters an incantation.
The tall, lanky man disappears into a cloud of pink smoke.

Would your character:

A) Run screaming "Sorcerer, Sorcerer!"
B) Run screaming "Elementalist!  Elementalist!"
C) Run screaming "Magicker, Magicker!"

If you answered C (and must choose one from the list), then my guess is your character wouldn't recognize the difference.  Tales of how a magicker gathers their energy vs. an elementalist are probably not the common topic of most common men and women.  Templars, elementalists, sorcerers, sure.  But probably not the common person.

-LoD

[Cegar]

That doesn't make current world cultures similar to Zalanthan culture.

The populace of Allanak already has power over the magickers, and it wouldn't make sense for them to relinquish that power in order to follow them. Sure, a few might (it has happened in the past) but the majority would be more comfortable with them at a lower social level. Allanak commoners already have a power over magickers.

Magickers just aren't the same as drug dealers or rappers. They aren't even on the same level. They're like the mutants from X-Men.

Yeah, that isn't the point, but your comparison doesn't really make any sense. Yes, people like to follow power, but they're already in power over the magickers. Why would they want to give them any more power?

[Armaddict]

-- Just because a type of power is seen as antisocial or destructive does not mean that it won't be adulated by some part of a culture, even though it may be reviled by another part. Gang-banging rappers are one example. TV shows/movies about the Mafia is another example. There are examples all around us. Adulation follows -power-.

If a mafia don approached you asking for you to head up part of his new crime-ring, would you accept?

If a gang-banging rapper asked you to be his bodyguard and carry a nine, would you accept?

There's also a difference between curiousity and intrigue and adoption.  The former is what leads to those shows.

In Zalanthas, I see allying oneself with magickers for power to be -viable-, but not common practice, either.  If only for the reason...-you- aren't getting the power.  You're leeching off of it, and that source of 'your' power can still smash you under a thumb if you try to get more.

[Armaddict]

They both cast spells, but only Sorcerers gather, and gathering is what destroys life.

Uhm.  Can people tell when someone else gathers from the land, if they don't make ash?  Have most commoners seen that gathering is different than most  gemmed elementalists?

I really do think they -would- be put in the same boat by the majority of people, simply because exposure to -real- sorcerers is so low that hardly anyone knows anything about it aside from ash on the ground = them.  Really...I think it's templars who would dictate that -this- magicker outside the gates needs -this- much more attention in eradication over that rogue elementalist he's been hunting down up until now.

I kind of swing back and forth on that.  Either way...I think there's a distinct relation between elementalist magick and sorcerer magick, which -is- the ability to cast spells.  Both are bad.

[jcarter]

The problem with the firearm analogy is that guns only have one purpose: to kill. Nobody has a gun that can heal someone completely from the brink of death and might be the only remaining hope to keep Grandma alive, or the power to make mounts while stranded in the middle of the desert. Magickers have a wide array of powers, and I'm sure that commoners are at least aware that they can do some things that aren't always malicious.

[Armaddict]

If a clear-cut satan worshipper offered to have an archdemon heal your wounds, would you accept?

*snickers* I realize I'm being totally flimsy.  But magick is magick.  Do the ends justify the means, or not?

Edited to add:  The guns analogy is being taken too literally.  Someone else has something you don't care for, don't understand, or don't trust, and you have qualms against things carrying that thing.  Not necessarily overt, but at least discomfort.

[SpyGuy]

The whole praising magickers because they have power is false on a few levels.  For one (I'm no anthropologist) I would figure people see rich criminals/rappers as role models because they represent a form of power (money) that is attainable.  They're cool because they have all the money/women/cars that other people want to have.  Allanaki's, on the other hand, are trained to see magick powers as a curse, demonic possession or worse and so won't want them.

Secondly, the gemmed are traditionally in lower social power than commoners.  The -real- powers to commoners are the nobility and the templarate.  And it's their job to continually reinforce the idea that the gemmed are subhuman tools.  Doesn't mean they shouldn't reward gemmed for good service but those rewards should be private.  Granted from a PC angle since magickers can be incredibly useful then the templarate may call on them more than mundane PCs hence creating an illusion of them being valuable servants.  The trick I suppose (I've never played a templar so I'm just talking out of my ass) is to somehow balance using them as servants while perpetuating the stereotype that they're still subhuman and that normal people are better.

[Yokunama]

Armaddict wrote:
Mages are not heroes no matter what they do in a war. If they call down a giant column of flame with fiery blue lightning bolts that destroys -every- enemy in range, the hero is the templar who brought them and controlled them until they did this. The mage was a tool, that's it, just like the sword in a bynner's hand. No credit goes to mages...inflate their ego, and there's going to be problems.


I disagree with this comment.
Let us keep in mind, the armies and its soldiers are tools to the templars as well. If the unit of doom brings several victories to the forces of Allanak, more than likely both the templar and the unit will get the credit for the victiory. Also, the sorcerer kings will recieve some sort of credit. When it all comes down to it, everyone is a -tool- to the sorcerer kings and his templars.

I disagree with your disagreement

The problem arises with the consequences of glorifying mages.  If mages come back and are treated as heroes, you have at least a significant portion of the populace who is not happy with it.  Templars may have absolute power over commoners, but making them very unhappy and dissatisfied makes their job more complicated, and may end up having less time to pursue their own goals because of those disgruntled commoners.

It goes to public relations, as I was talking about earlier.  You don't make someone the people hate, fear, distrust, or do not understand into a hero.

The templars are not there to make sure everyone has a smile on their face.

This is a game after all. :wink: Anything can happen.

[Gimfalisette]

Just to reiterate, the whole thing I'm saying here is based on the question of "how might the Red Desert War change Allanaki social structures, in regards to the perspective of the regular Amos on magickers?" Also note that I'm not saying this will happen, just that it's a good fit with human psychology.

1. Amos enlists in the militia and goes off to war. Amos has always feared and hated magickers, and he knew nothing about them.

2. Amos gets to the Allanaki camp and all of a sudden he is surrounded by magickers. This is scary for him.

3. In the camp, Amos sees several things happen due to the power of the magickers.
         -- The magickers feed and water him.
         -- The magickers blow the enemy up.
         -- The magickers heal him after the battle.

4. Amos starts to think, "You know, not all of them are jerks. They're blowing the other guys up, not me. And they are really powerful, wow!"

5. Amos meets an especially powerful and charismatic magicker who takes Amos under his/her wing as a minion.

6. Amos takes the minion job because he believes that by being close to this power, he will become more powerful himself in various ways. (Maybe money, maybe the ability to strongarm people, whatever.)

7. Amos is right, having friends who can kick other people's asses is pretty cool. Plus the free food / water / healing / whatever for life is nifty.

It's just like commoners who buddy up to nobles, or to merchant house family members. They're often doing it because being near power makes you more powerful. And it doesn't always matter whether that power is stigmatized as antisocial/destructive, because it's power.

On Earth, people with power, no matter how awful and murderous and feared they are, always end up with plenty of minions who are willing to go to the dark side in order to get the power trickle-down. Yes, it might be partly the fantasy of "that could be me!" But I don't think that's mostly what it is. It's that being close to power makes you more powerful.

Hitler had plenty of friends when he was powerful. Stalin too, Mao too. The people around these leaders knew that they could be the next target, they knew about the evil that surrounded them, but they still hung out, because it made them more powerful to do so. It's in human nature to sell one's soul in order to meet one's desires.

Again, I'm not saying this is what will happen, I'm just saying that when Amos gets his eyes opened about magick, it could happen.

[Armaddict]

You forgot all the psychology that happens when he comes back and tries to tell the people who -weren't- there.

[Larrath]

3. In the camp, Amos sees several things happen due to the power of the magickers.
         -- The magickers feed and water him.
         -- The magickers blow the enemy up.
         -- The magickers heal him after the battle.

-- The magickers eat his soul, make his babies mutants, make him unlucky and give him awkward rashes in funny places.

4. Amos starts to think, "You know, not all of them are jerks. They're blowing the other guys up, not me. And they are really powerful, wow!"

All the more reason to fear them.  And if Amos voices his thoughts, a templar might arrange for a mage to harass him just to teach him a lesson.

5. Amos meets an especially powerful and charismatic magicker who takes Amos under his/her wing as a minion.

A gemmer?  One or both of them probably die within two weeks.  If not a gemmer, Amos eventually learns what a dumb move he made by agreeing.

6. Amos takes the minion job because he believes that by being close to this power, he will become more powerful himself in various ways. (Maybe money, maybe the ability to strongarm people, whatever.)

Amos is in serious trouble.

7. Amos is right, having friends who can kick other people's asses is pretty cool. Plus the free food / water / healing / whatever for life is nifty.

Who says Amos is right?

Remember this - it doesn't seem that the Templarate wants people to like magickers or be comfortable about them.  They're most likely making active efforts to put the fear into people.

[jcarter]

I think we can all pretty much see that the results are going to be unpredictable and there's basically a rational reason for each side.

[bloodfromstone]

I think someone getting buddied up with a magicker for power (out of fear, necessity, etc) would be really interesting. It shouldn't happen all the time, but powerful magickers, such as sorcerers or particularly nasty free magickers, hording a couple of minions could be really fun. I'm sure it's happened before. No, not everyone would dream of being a magicker's pet. I would say equating them to modern day gangstas and rappers isn't a great example, but I think the possibility should certainly be there.

[Saphreal]

Wow, it looks like this thread has really progressed since I last visited it.  BTW, I just want to give everyone props.  I have been watching you, and have seen some awesome RP dealing with magick lately.

[Yokunama]

I think we can all pretty much see that the results are going to be unpredictable and there's basically a rational reason for each side.

This all lies within the hands of us players. :wink:

[amish overlord]

Wow, it looks like this thread has really progressed since I last visited it.  BTW, I just want to give everyone props.  I have been watching you, and have seen some awesome RP dealing with magick lately.

OMG did you see me last night I am so embarassed caught me with my pants down!

Amish Overlord