Something to Think about During the War

[Sanvean]

This came in over the request tool:

This is a pretty broad, light complaint which is more of a suggestion than anything.


Having played an Allanak () with my last character and then a Tuluki (), I've noticed with both characters that the non-magicker population seems to be completely ignorant and even encouraged by gemmed magickers' magick-casting, magick-threatening and general magickal presense. I know quite a bit about Zalanthas and on thing is that commoner characters, of both city-states fear magickers, gemmed or ungemmed, especially when they're using their magicks so freely and so excessively. Now, maybe every single person in the Allanaki camp has been dulled by the magicks surrounding them, maybe they just got used to it. But I doubt my two last statements.


So, I'd suggest that perhaps, somehow, the non-magicker characters could somehow be advised or encouraged to have just a bit more fear of all the magick that's going on, since that is the realistic standard that would, in my opinion, be occuring with the Allanaki army. I don't know how this would be done but I'm sure you guys would know.

This seems like a reasonable thing to bear in mind when playing.  Remember that magick is a strange and scary thing and RP accordingly.

[moab]

Be the change you want to see.

You want people to fear magick?  Make them fear magick.

I dunno.  Maybe that sounds a bit harsh, but you can bet if I'm hanging out with two of my best buddies and you fry them both, I'm going to be sh*ting my pants.

Use the "look i'm a nice mage" "no i'm not!!!" type to really mix it up.  If mages were _scarier_ we would fear them.

Templars are scary, imo, not because they can kill us in a blink - but because of their potential and their corruption.  We, players, expect templars to be sneaky and corrupt.  We can't trust them and we can hardly do anything about it - that _is_ scary.

Mages need to be the same way to truly get at the scary.

[Intrepid]

Yeah, I had that dilemna myself playing in the militia.  The templars at the time were rather magicker-happy and were regularly inviting those freaks with our mundane pcs.  As a result, my pc, while definitely disturbed by the proceedings, was more afraid of pissing off the templar who invited said magicker.  As a result that pc developed an "eyes forward, clamp jaw" response to it all.

I realize that magickers are tools.  I also realize that militia are tools in the same analogy.  I would rather not take the chance of being a tool who kills another tool and finds out, too late, that I was the less useful of the set.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Realistically, would a person who has spent over 200 hundred days around magick still be terrified of seeing things like, for instance, grass spring up around a magicker when she walks, or, uh, a bald man with fiery hair (these are examples ... noone is doing that who plays with me, but the things that are happening are simular)?

After a while, given that these soldiers can be and might be fed and watered by magickers or perhaps have had their lives saved or their strength returned in battle, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that somebody becomes acceptant of the fact that they are serving with magickers?

You assume that the average commoner of standard intellect, superstitious or not, who has been pressed into such a situation, would become innured to some extent. Maybe they won't marry a magicker and run off and have glow-eyed children, but to still cower everytime they see a miracle seems ... pretty damned stupid.

They probably won't beg for enchantments and all that, but I just don't see them all still flocking to the other side of the camp when a water-bearing cactus pops up or a dead and fully skinned mekillot corpse suddenly appears.

[Boop]

Playing a character in the northern army, I'd like to comment this from my perspective.

It is hard to be afraid of magick. Faithful Templars exude, as they perhaps should, a complete calm towards any magick threat. Their example and orders were followed first by characters with "experience", well congratulated upon draw sword; kill magicker. It has quickly become the PC norm and by going against the grain one is suddenly playing a coward or one whose faith in the Faithful is not as strong as others, which isn't necessarily what one wants to do. Even after the encounter shivering hands and voice are uncommon.

In my mind, the natural response to magick from any mundane northerner would be to stand and stare at it. And the second time and ninety times after that you'd draw your sword and stare at it. I'd like new, powerful, defensive magick to promote this, because a handful of players can't do it alone. Just as with bruising in spars and fumbling in combat, un-ninja stuff is very rare when left to the playerbase and the one who types 'kill magicker' is the hero.

[Gimfalisette]

Playing a Tuluki as well, it's hard to stay so freaked out about magickers all the time when encounters are so frequent -and- there is so much other important stuff going on. My PC is handling three conversations at a time usually, and one of those might be about "so-and-so saw a magicker/abomination, where was it, who's taking care of it", but the other conversations are equally important. Often, at least for my PC, there's an IC casualness that is much more about "I've got too much crap to take care of right now to freak out about anything" than it indicates no fear of magickers. There's plenty of fear, but in a time of war, with the adrenaline going and so much work to do, there's just no time to -act- frightened. And in fact, that really seems totally IC to me.

And to counter the complaint, I've seen some PCs lately being really paranoid and freaked out or cautious about direct interaction with magickers and/or paranoia about magickers. (Four times in the last RL week, with four different characters.) Some of these have been near-hysteria situations.

[Dalmeth]

No offense, but magickers are getting too common to be mysterious anymore.  Even then, they act like super powered humans, not mysterious monsters.

Maybe if they had a ritual to invoke these storms that involved virgin sacfrice.  That it!  More virgin sacrifices!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Be the change you want to see.

You want people to fear magick?  Make them fear magick.

I dunno.  Maybe that sounds a bit harsh, but you can bet if I'm hanging out with two of my best buddies and you fry them both, I'm going to be sh*ting my pants.

Use the "look i'm a nice mage" "no i'm not!!!" type to really mix it up.  If mages were _scarier_ we would fear them.

Templars are scary, imo, not because they can kill us in a blink - but because of their potential and their corruption.  We, players, expect templars to be sneaky and corrupt.  We can't trust them and we can hardly do anything about it - that _is_ scary.

Mages need to be the same way to truly get at the scary.

But a commoner's fear is based on the lack of knowledge about magick, not on the magicker. A magicker isn't supposed to be playing 'scary' because they are magickers. They are just normal folks with ... well, with problems. They don't generally want people to run away from them.

So you can't say that all or even most magickers should be scary, because that's something they won't be doing. Commoner PCs are the ones who have to reinforce the fear of magick. There is a great player in the game who does a very good job of this, even though his character has to work around them and despite criticism from folks ranking higher than he. Maybe I should send him a kudos.

If I were an average Northerner, I would still be very disturbed, if not terrified. But if I were an average Southerner, I would be complacent, if not happy.

There's a saying in RW armies: War changes a man. Well, these PCs are at War, you have to allow deduction and reason to play its part in your character's life as much as you allow fear and superstition to play their parts.

[Cale_Knight]

When a man is put into a situation where magickers are saving his ass daily, he finds it difficult to remain terrified of them. That's really the bottom line.

[Hymwen]

I've always found it hard to be truly scared of magickers in all scenarios. In Allanak they're all over the place, in Tuluk very few people ever see them, and now with the war, people (at least on the Allanak side, I haven't seen the other) are forced to sit around watching groups of magickers literally spam-cast spells, throwing oasises and enchantments and glowing balls left and right. I was only at the war for a few hours, and I got to see several magickers doing what seemed to be simply practicing their spells in wide open, in front of an army. From what I've heard this goes on at all times, loads of magickers casting to their hearts' desire when the army needs water, food, healing, enchantments, or if they feel like they should practice their spells. A rare few have done what I thought made more sense: going a bit away from the camp to do it instead of sitting around next to the army who is going to defend your city, casting spells which should terrify the pants off of them.

If I was a common soldier, I'd find it hard to be scared of magick, both from an IC and OOC point of view. The vast majority of the magick you see is when someone creates water for you, makes you stronger, saves your life, makes you stop bleeding, creates light when it's dark. Why should you as a rule be terrified of all magick? Especially when you see magick being cast nearly constantly within earshot, seeing magickal currents and mysterious mists flowing through the camp every time you turn your head. Should you live in constant terror? Would the Highlord want his entire army shaking in their boots at all times? Unease, suspicion, prejudice and distrust - fine. Utter terror when almost all the magick you see is so obviously to your benefit? I don't get it.

There is a great player in the game who does a very good job of this, even though his character has to work around them and despite criticism from folks ranking higher than he. Maybe I should send him a kudos.

Do it, send them a kudos. It's one of the best things you can do when you see someone doing something good and outside of the norm. If you want people to do something, and only see a few doing it, the best way to make more people do it is to compliment and reward the ones who do it right.

edit:

When a man is put into a situation where magickers are saving his ass daily, he finds it difficult to remain terrified of them. That's really the bottom line.

Yep.. Cale put into two lines what it took me a page to say

[Saphreal]

I would like to agree with San on this one.  I would like to see more people showing fear toward magick, especially on the Tulukis side of the war.  With all the gemmers in camp on the Allanaki side, VNPCS, NPCS and PCS, I will understand if some of you have grown more callused to magick.  Actually, I think that would be a lot of fun to RP out, and I give you props for it.  But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

[Ghost]

No offense, but magickers are getting too common to be mysterious anymore.  Even then, they act like super powered humans, not mysterious monsters.

Let us worry about the magicker population and you worry about your RPing.

EDIT:  I am freaking out.. I did not write the above comment!  Saphreal is eating my brainz!

[Saphreal]

I hear a lot of complaining on this thread, lol.  This is part of the documentation.  One of the most fun things about RP on Armageddon is trying to role-play within the restriction of the documentation.  I want to see less people bitching and more people getting creative.  

[Cuusardo]

I would think that there are some people on both sides that think "Am I more afraid of possibly being hurt by these magickers, or am I more afraid of definitely being killed by my templars or the militia for being a coward?"

[Cale_Knight]

But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

Innately? No, it's not innate. There's no portion of the commoner genome that says "fear magickers."

It's a societal trait - the result of social pressures and tradition. And that sort of thing can be broken under the right circumstances. I really do think a prolonged engagement like this can be those circumstances, depending on the particular commoner involved.

[Saphreal]

I would think that there are some people on both sides that think "Am I more afraid of possibly being hurt by these magickers, or am I more afraid of definitely being killed by my templars or the militia for being a coward?"

Certainly, what we would like to see is not people running for the hills at the sight of a magicker, but perhaps throwing out a complicated think depicting his struggle with his fears.

[Saphreal]

But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

Innately? No, it's not innate. There's no portion of the commoner genome that says "fear magickers."

It's a societal trait - the result of social pressures and tradition. And that sort of thing can be broken under the right circumstances. I really do think a prolonged engagement like this can be those circumstances, depending on the particular commoner involved.

Yes, and you have likely seen this.  What we are saying is that for many of the players there was not enough struggle to get there.  When the camps were first erected, and the magickers and the commoners came together, there wasn't the stuggle that one might expect.  We are not singling anyone out, just saying as a whole this is something important to keep in mind.

[Saphreal]

I feel like I have given my 2 'sids worth on this, so I will not comment on this further.

[Gimfalisette]

I would like to agree with San on this one.  I would like to see more people showing fear toward magick, especially on the Tulukis side of the war.  With all the gemmers in camp on the Allanaki side, VNPCS, NPCS and PCS, I will understand if some of you have grown more callused to magick.  Actually, I think that would be a lot of fun to RP out, and I give you props for it.  But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

Why should my Tuluki character be quaking in her boots at the mere thought of magick when every time I log in, I have to deal with it in some sense? There's a -war- on, half the people my character knew have died, there is important work to be done, there's just no time to be freaking out constantly about magick.

To make a fairly lame analogy, I drive in my car to work every day. I know that accidents can be very dangerous. There is always a worry in the back of my head as to what some other crazy driver will do to me. But I'm not freaking out about it, even though I fear it.

Freaking out is not the only way to express fear, is my point. It would be very un-IC for my character to faint or to run away screaming at the thought of magick or an encounter with a magicker. She has other methods of dealing with her fear.

It also would seem really weird and wrong to me if most soldiers on the Tuluki side were freaking out visibly about magick. For one thing, they -know- their lives are in danger in some way or another; magickers are just one of the methods by which they could die. For another thing, soldiers at war get hardened to stuff, and they live in an ethos where it's more "tough" to not express fear.

Again, just because a character isn't crying, screaming, and wetting their pants, it doesn't mean they are not afraid.

[elvenchipmunk]

When I think of people fighting magickers in war, I think of that one scene in The Return of the King when Minas Tirith's gate is brought down by that gigantic battering ram shaped like a dog.

Basically, Gandalf says "Whatever comes through those gates, you will stand your ground."

Then the trolls come through, and the soldiers hesitate, then charge the trolls.

I think that's the way it should be. Your character is uncertain about what sort of things the magickers can do, so they will hesitate, but will follow their fellow soldiers into combat anyways.

Another one from LOTR is in the first one at the very beginning when Sauron comes out and starts fucking everyone up.

Those aren't the best of analogies, but the soldiers' reactions to these two things could be similar to what Zalanthan soldiers' (Tulukis specifically, I suppose) should be to magicker attacks.

[Good Gortok]

My PC showed fear, and because he is a rather simple and stupid guy, he showed fear in the form of excess anger and scornful behavior towards magickers. He was ICly told not to do that, and to treat them like he would treat anyone else in the camp. The end.

[Anonymous]

I also can only speak from the perpective of the Tuluki camp and say there is  or are some PCs with adequte fear...faced one on one with magickers..you'll see some emoted and RPed fear.

However when that fears presents its self on your PC, you'll have these beautiful and powerful templars telling them ...Do not be afraid, have faith in us, we will protect you, they are no match for us etc etc, the imms also know they have other ways of convining your PC...

this isn't wrong, in fact its perfectly IC...but it keeps happening over and over...magick attack after magick.. So eventually the question all the people at the camp will ask themselves is our fear greater then our faith and love in His radiance and His Faithful. The fact that they are still there means Faith>fear

On top of this soldiers have family and friends back at home which they care about...almost all are there out of 'cult' love for their city...being labeled a coward and/or a traitor is more of a serious thing in Tuluk i think.

Therefore after X amount of exposer to magickers+ Y amount of retoric and harassment for being afraid +Z amount of fear turning into anger...well even i find myself having a hard time showing any level of fear after a while....it just gets old.

[Sarah]

Realistically, I agree that when there are so many magickers casting all around you on a regular basis, mainly to help you (food, water, protection), that you would become habituated. I mean, if we were so scared ALL the time during the war, we'd all keel over from heart attacks from the stress of it all. People adapt. That's nature.

I think that commoners should be wary of magickers still, only in that the average commoner would, upon reflection, find themselves overwhelmed, and it would still seem, at least in a way, unnatural.

We're people. We're always at least a little freaked out by the things we don't completely understand. Some of us are a little more cool and collected than others, so are a little more mellow, some will never get used to it (eg my grandmother and computers). We don't necessarily lose our heads over it, but we can still be kind of nervous (eg me and computers).

EDIT: (speaking from a 'Nakker's perspective)

[Ghost]

Okay, to take it more seriously:

I actually like the way people are treating the magickers.  I have had a few encounters recently, where people definitely turned their back to the magickers, and showed an obvious "you are not liked around here" signs.  In some cases, magickers even left the area seeing the hostility.  And that, I think, is quite a good way of RPing the distrust, hate, and even fear.

I do not think the fear of magick is too out of place at the moment.  Though, I have not been to HRPT, I do not know how people are holding it in there.

To make my point in my earlier post:  It is not wholly on the mundane part.  Sometimes it is on the magickers' side too.  Some magickers are acting like they are the nobility.  Some are acting like they are the tektolness.  
Well on the mundane characters, some people are acting like "You can do that?  Wow!  What else?  Really?  Magick me up so I can kill scrabs!!".  
It is on the both sides.  But all in all, I don't see much problem in the RPing the reaction to magick.

P.S:  Disclaimer:  Derailment.
Recently in this thread there were alot of people finding the number of magickers in the game too much to actually roleplay the magicker fear/hatred/distrust appropriately.  I kind of agree with them.  To make a comparison:  In Star Wars IV, V and VI, there were few jedi and they were not throwing around the Force around, and those episodes rock as hell.  Jedi stays mysterious and powerful.  Now take Episode I, II and III.  It is like, everybody and his dog is jedi or at least can use force somehow somewhere.  And jedi is not mysterious anymore they are just getting to be "an action accessory" which you enjoy watching while having some popcorn and soda.

P.P.S:  It was you, was not it, Saphreal?

[Rhyden]

Yeah, I had that dilemna myself playing in the militia.  The templars at the time were rather magicker-happy and were regularly inviting those freaks with our mundane pcs.  As a result, my pc, while definitely disturbed by the proceedings, was more afraid of pissing off the templar who invited said magicker.  As a result that pc developed an "eyes forward, clamp jaw" response to it all.

Since I guess you're talking about the Allanaki Templarate on this one, I wouldn't see much wrong with this. That's essentially what the gemmed mages are there for. As tools for the Templarate to use at their disposal. If the Templars are mixing up mages with ordinary militia, that's their problem if the militia starts getting afraid and demoralized, I don't think it should mean the militia would be getting more 'used to' these magickers.

Realistically, would a person who has spent over 200 hundred days around magick still be terrified of seeing things like, for instance, grass spring up around a magicker when she walks, or, uh, a bald man with fiery hair (these are examples ... noone is doing that who plays with me, but the things that are happening are simular)?

I think that after a -long- time, mundane characters may get a little more used to magickers spells, especially if said magickers are making the mundane character's food. But still, I'd think most mundane characters would still be a little hesistant to eating some magicker-food over some real stuff. I can't see mundane characters getting used to magickers using more lethal spells than meal-making though. The biggest issue, I think, isn't mundane characters getting used to magick, it's mundane characters supporting, encouraging, liking and laughing at the spells magickers use.

When a man is put into a situation where magickers are saving his ass daily, he finds it difficult to remain terrified of them. That's really the bottom line.

That's true, but when magickers are saving the asses of mundane people, there might be some sort of problem going on. As a mundane character with magickers saving me every day, I'd probably be thinking to myself some questions such as: "Why are these magickers apparently so powerful that they're saving me and others every single day?" and "Why aren't the Templarate and the mundane militia saving us instead of the magickers?" or "Are these magickers more powerful than us then?" because these questions, still, will make the mundane chraracter terrified of magickers, even if they are saving his ass every day.

Sure, your mundane characters may be getting used to magicks, but I think it would take a much longer time than this war's duration so far. And even then, I still think a mundane character who's been helped, saved and fought with magickers for fifty years would still have a little bit of fear and hate for magickers anyways.

-R