Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[Intrepid]

Servants are not the same as nobles.  It's actually well in the spirit of Allanak that there are very few independents in the city, as every commoner is "owned" by someone or they're a criminal.  Allanak is the city of organizations.

[Quirk]

Servants are not the same as nobles.  It's actually well in the spirit of Allanak that there are very few independents in the city, as every commoner is "owned" by someone or they're a criminal.  Allanak is the city of organizations.

Uh? Where are you getting this from?

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

You'll note that relatively few PCs would fall into the "House Servant" category; most are in the Guard or Aide positions, significantly higher on the social scale. You will also note that commoners are not the same as either House Servants or Slaves of the Templarate.

This is completely at odds with the docs, and the in game nature of the city.

[Delirium]

I have one contention with Amoeba's post.. the more I know about magickers the more I DO fear them.

Heh.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

<quote>Magickers are unnatural, unpredictable and thoroughly untrustworthy</quote>

No, I don't agree with this blanket statement.

They are perceived as being this way, but it doesn't mean they are this way. They are in fact natural (since they appear in nature), and their personalities are as varied as "mundanes" are.

[Quirk]

No, I don't agree with this blanket statement.

They are perceived as being this way, but it doesn't mean they are this way. They are in fact natural (since they appear in nature), and their personalities are as varied as "mundanes" are.

Sorry, I'd rather hoped from the context (the reaction of commoners to magickers) that it would be abundantly apparent that this was "commoner perception". However, I'm willing to explicitly state it as such if it makes you happy.

[Anonymous]

I think there are too many magickers in-game but i feel its a problem that should be handled ICly...


icly i think there is a feeling that there have been alot of magicker sighting and attacks however what do you think the IC consequences are going to be?. Magickers are like serial killers on the lose to most...one is bad...more then one you got a problem...Fear will eventually turn into anger.

Its has already been said that there are now enormous IC incentives for people to now go <kill magicker> as opposed to fleeing. Once the fad is over or the magickers learn more discresion or they simple get hunted and kill off...i am sure things return normal. If not expect the game to react accordingly ICly. Its also something to think about before making any boohoo they are killing us on sight threads.

[LoD]

If any of the playerbase could be accused of having common sense, we wouldn't need the imms to run the game...so trust them to make policy, not any of the people posting here.

Every single one of the Imms was once a player.  Good ideas, on topic discussion, and debate that can affect game policy are not the sole province of the Immortal.  They have chosen a position granted the responsibility to discuss, implement, and enforce such policy.  Discrediting the opinions of those who do not share the label is naive.

Many discussions that have begun upon these boards have resulted in direct or indirect policy changes, code changes, additions, and features.  What other forum is there for open debate between players and staff on the direction of the game, its features, or policies?  No.  This is exactly a place in which policy can be made, or changed.  Where ideas can be discussed, accepted, or rejected.  Where attention can be focused on aspects of the game that may merit discussion.

There is an inconsistency between what the documentation claims, and what has been practiced with regards to the rarity and mystery of magick.  The Imm Staff have made plain they want magickers to be a powerful and fearful force in the gameworld, but some players have begun to feel overwhelmed by a common (or least not uncommon) magickal presence that wasn't represented so strongly in years past.  My post was designed as a viewpoint of how IC events may have caused these feelings to arise, an analysis on why that may be good/bad for the game, and a request for feedback and suggestions on how it may be addressed in the next few years.

Power must be tempered with frequency, otherwise balance will be lost.  What player will walk the sands a lesser being when the clear choice becomes, "Play a magicker or become their prey."  I've always felt the heavy handed use of magick in the game robs us of several layers of RP due to the disparity in power.  When Sorcerer 'X' gathers Army "Y" and marches against Civilization "Z" for the 10th time, why must we feel as if there is little to be done for the mundane folk of the world?  (I feel the new HRPT and SimWar effort is a godsend and vastly superior model to previous large scale events.)

If I see a bear in the woods, I might feel thrilled, scared, excited, nervous, and a great many emotions because such a thing is rare and powerful.  Something I've usually only heard of in stories.  When I see five such bears, on a semi-regular basis, they cease to wondrous and mighty creatures, and start to become dangerous and troublesome adversaries.  My "fear" of the bear will be lost through proximity and frequency of interaction.  I will respect what it can do, but I will find ways to trap it, kill it, or chase it off.

This is what the Cataclysm did.  It turned one bear in the wild into ten.  Instead of being a frightening, wondrous, rare, and powerful experience, it has become a troublesome and, for some, commonplace encounter.

Like I said, I don't want to stop people from playing magickers.  Play them, but I'd like to see some kind of social RP made available for the northern magicker to provide both the magicker players and the mundane players a choice for a non-violent lifestyle.  Predator/prey is too limited and narrow niche in which to place so fearsome a beast as the elementalist.

-LoD

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Sorry, I'd rather hoped from the context (the reaction of commoners to magickers) that it would be abundantly apparent that this was "commoner perception". However, I'm willing to explicitly state it as such if it makes you happy.

Yes, I was aware that was probably what you meant. Only three extra words were required to make that a certainty.

Never bite my head off. It's certain to give you indigestion.  :lol:

[SpyGuy]

I don't want to step into this debate much so...yes at times there are lots of magickers.  As others have said it's a cycle.  As for what should be done about it...

1)  I have a feeling hunters are finding magickers in specific spots in the wild, not so much wandering the roads.  Why not begin to develop IC superstitions about that place, organize large hunting parties if you're a mage hater or otherwise just react to it IC other than "Oh boy, sure are a lot of magickers out today."

2)  More people should give gemmed mages a try.  Having played a long lived gemmer I'd have to say that sometimes the population does get a bit big and you see plenty of them in the Barrel.  At other times the population is almost dead, especially in any mages above 2 karma.  Some more vets need to give it another try  :wink:  [derail] As for people seeing way too many gemmers in one place...well there really only is one place for the gemmed to socialize in Allanak.  The Traders is idiotic to hang out in and the Gaj just about as idiotic because you're more likely to get in a fight than to be able to drink ale in peace [/derail]

3)  Lastly I wouldn't mind seeing a cap on people playing mages over and over and over again.  Maybe a timer of one to three months before said player can play a mage after his last one dies.  I'm strongly opposed to any rehashing of the karma system or queue system outside of special app and I do feel people who play nothing but magicker PCs with maybe a break from time to time are the root of this perceived problem.  There is a lot to love about mage classes and I understand why people like them so much but people should try to exercise responsibility in limiting themselves to play a variety of mundane roles.  If it becomes clear people can't and staff sees it as detrimental to the game then perhaps it must be enforced as well.

[marko]

I don't agree that magickers is just a phase or a cycle.

I believe that it is simply a situation that is propegated by the fact that as time goes on more and more people get the karma to play a magicker.  Naturally, at some point, these people will play their magicker option to explore the role.

After the first magicker many people begin exploring the rest of their magick karma roles.  Others will alternate between magick role and non-magick role.  

There is nothing wrong with this - this is how the karma system is set up.  

The way to counter balance this is to either make changes to the karma system or to recruit more and more people.  We have a situation where, as of my last checking of the poll, 75% of the players who reads the GDB are capable of playing magickers.  This percentage has remained steady.

What does this really mean?  This means that the pool of available players to play magickers is constantly increasing, in terms of percentage, and therefore we will continue to see more and more magickers in the game as an overall percentage assuming we continue to grow at our current rate.  

As the game matures and more and more people get karma they will, naturally, play the karma options now available to them.  The majority of karma options are magick based roles.  

Therefore, as time goes on, we will see more and more magickers in the game.  Again, this is how karma has been set up and one of the consequences of a maturing player base.  

So, let's get out there and recruit more people to keep the ratio of magickers to non-magickers down.  Otherwise another can of worms might need to be opened - changes to the karma system due to the fact that Armageddon is a maturing RPI.

[Intrepid]

Every single one of the Imms was once a player.  Good ideas, on topic discussion, and debate that can affect game policy are not the sole province of the Immortal.  They have chosen a position granted the responsibility to discuss, implement, and enforce such policy.  Discrediting the opinions of those who do not share the label is naive.

I didn't discredit the opinions, I discredited the notion that your and anyone else's attempts to place blanket policy on the portrayal of magickers is lacking in common sense.  It's naive to think that your way fits everyone.  You're just trying to play junior imm.  Again, I might add.

Many discussions that have begun upon these boards have resulted in direct or indirect policy changes, code changes, additions, and features.  What other forum is there for open debate between players and staff on the direction of the game, its features, or policies?  No.  This is exactly a place in which policy can be made, or changed.  Where ideas can be discussed, accepted, or rejected.  Where attention can be focused on aspects of the game that may merit discussion.

See, this is the problem with your all or nothing viewpoint, LoD--you start making broad claims about the gdb.  I never said discussion was inappropriate, I said that we can't be counted on as a whole to make policy due to a collective lack of common sense.  Look how you just took the ribbon and ran with it.  Do you think you're showing common sense right now by assigning the very blanket statements I'm telling you lacks that common sense?  No rule is totalitarian.  Every law must take into account extenuating circumstances or they lose their initial meaning.  The problem with making an all or nothing rule on magickers is the exact same as my saying there is a lack of common sense on the gdb and you misinterpreting that to mean that all discussion is bad.  Despite your erroneous and possibly suspect claims, there are responsible players out there who are not playing obvious magickers up north and purposely ruining your playtime, so the idea of your implementation of a blanket rule to curtail everyone is absurd.

There is an inconsistency between what the documentation claims, and what has been practiced with regards to the rarity and mystery of magick.  The Imm Staff have made plain they want magickers to be a powerful and fearful force in the gameworld, but some players have begun to feel overwhelmed by a common (or least not uncommon) magickal presence that wasn't represented so strongly in years past.  My post was designed as a viewpoint of how IC events may have caused these feelings to arise, an analysis on why that may be good/bad for the game, and a request for feedback and suggestions on how it may be addressed in the next few years.

There always has been.  At one point, people were being too friendly with magickers.  Now, in Allanak especially, the very idea of magickers--despite having grown up in a city with a quarter of magickers and tales of fire-wielding templars and sorceror kings that can turn into dragons--we have these aspirant homcidal maniacs in each and every citizen pc in Nak.  I mean, really--some of the same people complaining about Tuluk being soft are acting the same Tulukis do about magick.  If you're in Nak, they're pariahs but they're Tek's pariahs.  If you in Tuluk, they're hated and hunted.  If you're in Red Storm, it's don't ask, don't tell.  Your initial post regarding is fine, it's the idea of dictating conclusions that you and several others have been straining to accrue for months now that bothers me.  I always put a lot of work into creating a character, whether it be a half-giant soldier or a half-elf ranger or an elven magicker, and as a result, my characters, all of them, survive for a long time.  When playing a magickers, I put thought into their methodology, and most of my pcs of that type have been rogue magickers because I find the concept of keeping it secret satisfying.  And that's just it--I do keep it secret.  Why should I be punished in your blanket solution just because a few people can't handle the role?  This is where common sense is denied in favor of an overarching rule proposed by someone who thinks it looks good in print.  The truth of the matter is that the imms are seeing a very different game than most of us are, and seeing a bigger picture.  This is why I believe players are in less of a position to make proper judgements on behalf of the rest of the playerbase.

Power must be tempered with frequency, otherwise balance will be lost.  What player will walk the sands a lesser being when the clear choice becomes, "Play a magicker or become their prey."  I've always felt the heavy handed use of magick in the game robs us of several layers of RP due to the disparity in power.  When Sorcerer 'X' gathers Army "Y" and marches against Civilization "Z" for the 10th time, why must we feel as if there is little to be done for the mundane folk of the world?  (I feel the new HRPT and SimWar effort is a godsend and vastly superior model to previous large scale events.)

There are no small parts.  Only small roleplayers.  If you feel dwarfed by a magicker when you didn't before, I'm glad.  The code is catching up with the fear you should have roleplaying all along.  That said, I've never felt inadequate playing a ranger or a burglar.  In fact, I consider these classes to be extremely powerful, so I often look askance at anyone, especially in this case, feeling that magickers are somehow instakill machines.  Yes, they're powerful, but again, regardless of what the distribution level is, there will always be someone griping about the number of magickers.  Why not just make your own plot instead of waiting for the next sorceror?  If you're having a problem with widescale plots with magicker npcs or even the occasional pc, don't take it out on all magicker pcs as a whole.  Again, this is where the blanket rulings lack common sense.

If I see a bear in the woods, I might feel thrilled, scared, excited, nervous, and a great many emotions because such a thing is rare and powerful.  Something I've usually only heard of in stories.  When I see five such bears, on a semi-regular basis, they cease to wondrous and mighty creatures, and start to become dangerous and troublesome adversaries.  My "fear" of the bear will be lost through proximity and frequency of interaction.  I will respect what it can do, but I will find ways to trap it, kill it, or chase it off.

You know, I find this instance suspect.  It's conveniently the biggest proponents of wrangling in the legion of wilderness mages that have had these apocryphal encounters with them.  When?  Where?  Did you send concrete proof to the imms?  May I get your autograph?  If you went to a known magicker hideout and found them, that's asking for an instagak.  if you had a freak occurrence with known mages, that's all it is.  The imms keep telling you guys that they don't comprise as large a portion of the playerbase as you believe they do.  Freak occurrence does not equate to common example and should not set precedence for overall policy.

This is what the Cataclysm did.  It turned one bear in the wild into ten.  Instead of being a frightening, wondrous, rare, and powerful experience, it has become a troublesome and, for some, commonplace encounter.

Like I said, I don't want to stop people from playing magickers.  Play them, but I'd like to see some kind of social RP made available for the northern magicker to provide both the magicker players and the mundane players a choice for a non-violent lifestyle.  Predator/prey is too limited and narrow niche in which to place so fearsome a beast as the elementalist.

No, we have this on the hearsay of a couple of players' isolated encounters that have turned into alarmist hysteria about mages in play.  Now, if the imms have been running too many mage encounters for RPTs, that's not a reason to punish the magick-using pcs.  I like the idea of Tuluk being anti-magick, I just dislike the idea of Zalanthas being so facistly anti-magick that the playerbase can't even see straight, because many of us seem to go nuts at the first opportunity to kill something/someone.  You're only as much prey as you allow yourself to be, and there's more than one way to deal with a magicker than attacking them.

We as a playerbase need to start thinking outside the box, as we've started to cleave so hard to the rules of the setting that we've forgotten how to make up options for ourselves.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Addressing the OP:
I found your timeline of Northern history to be rather interesting, but I don't really agree that any of these developments are bad or detrimental.

:arrow: The Cataclysm teaches northerners that "magick is bad, mmkay?" Norrthern players begin hunting magickers, killing them on sight.

This was an IC event. It only seems reasonable that there would be IC repercussions.

:arrow: No longer able to enjoy relative peace while they gain enough proficiency to protect themselves from mundane threats, the elementalist guilds are reworked to be given more useful spells earlier and faster progression through the tree.

There're a few things at work here. Yes, magick and the spell trees have changed a lot in the past few years (not that I'm in a position to know, or anything. I haven't been able to play magickers until fairly recently). But this was to address a real problem- many spells, and in fact, entire guilds were broken, or not as scary as they should have been. A couple of years ago, I commonly heard bone-headed comments like, "we can take 'em, guys, he's just a Rukkian!" If people are afraid of magickers now, or feel they are "overpowered", then good. They should be.
Also, keep in mind that many of the new spells are useless. Halaster mentioned it on the boards once that a lot of the new stuff is just eye candy. So just because you see 'five new Krathi spells' on the update archive doesn't mean it'll be five different permutations of fireball. They might be spells that allow the caster to boil water, or telepathically pick his butt, or something similar. No big deal.

:arrow: Those players choosing to create northern magickers were now predators or prey, or both. They no longer had a peaceful role to assume within the northern city-state, but were forced instead of be "on the run" and acknowledge that an entire civilization would likely only ever consider them an abomination to be executed as soon as possible.

The fear and hatred of magickers is one of the very few things I actually like about New Tuluk. Please, please don't take this away. What would we be left with? High art and subtlety? Half-elves lounging in the Sanctuary? No. Fanatical hatred of magickers is crucial to the entire "atmosphere" of Tuluk.
I think, therefore, that any sort of "peaceful" magicker living openly and comfortably within the system would be not only unfeasible, but detrimental.

:arrow: Magickers are pushed out of Tuluk and forced to find locations in which they can survive and practice their craft. These places happen to be the very same places frequented by isolated desert elf and nomadic human tribes, forcing these players to interact with these new magickal threats that normally were not commonly found.

This is, in my mind, a good thing. Gives those isolated tribesmen something to do! Besides, this is a simple aspect of the gameworld.
Magickers are outcasts. Outcasts live alone in the desert. Therefore, the desert has its fair share of magickers. This is a major reason why the city-states exist. People put up with draconian templars and scheming nobles because those big walls keep them safe from the evil magickers, monsters and raiders roaming about.

:arrow: Now we have every magicker (not just sorcerers and magickers choosing to raid) running around the northern wilderness trying desperately (or not so desperately) to survive. There are few mundane organizations with which they can interact because most of them consider magickers highly dangerous and will kill them on sight.

Magickers should be trying desperately to survive. I don't see what the problem is here. You say you want to see less magickers, and the solution you propose is to give them some form of amnesty in the North? Huh? Magick, and the hatred thereof, is a big part of Armageddon, and I wouldn't want to see either reduced or eliminated.
Now, if your problem is with what current magickers are doing (raiding, throwing their weight around, becoming unrealistically strong), then that's a problem that can be easily addressed without re-writing Tuluki history.
First of all, players can simply choose to play non-violent magickers, and lead by example. All the magickers I've ever played, (three to date), have been non-violent, in fact. Never threatening anybody, never killing anybody, complying with demands, etc. This, of course, opens up more avenues for interaction... instead of taking your d-elf tribe out to kill that evil water-witch, maybe you could strike a deal with the devil, and secure a new water-source for your tribe?
And, of course, if you keep encountering magickers, and they're throwing their weight around like crazy, you can always report them. Just send a short little e-mail saying, "hey, this guy keeps threatening my tribe. He doesn't seem to understand that we're a hundred strong, and ICly quite able to quite his ass". You might have to send out one of these e-mails per magicker, but still, they should get the picture pretty quick.
And finally, if you're really desperate to get the magicker population down... special app a Nilazi. Hehehe.
Addressing other posters:
1. As already stated by some (including the staff in earlier topics), this is a fad. This is a trend. This too shall pass.
2. Have you ever considered that perhaps there is an IC reason why you are seeing more and more powerful magickers?
3. As already stated, there are more people with the karma to play magickers than there were previously. Also, some people (like me) prefer to play magickers, so we just need to let the babies have their bottles. And although no one actually means it, these topics sometimes stink of elitism for me. It's as if the newbs are finally getting access to magickers, and the oldbies are freaking out about it.
4. Some of us like to play magickers. If it were up to me, I'd play one every other character, if not every character. But I don't- I'm more than willing to make a few concessions out of courtesy for other players. I've been resisting the urge to store my current character and app a magicker for the past week or so, in fact.
But this is a game. And people play games to have fun. I have fun with magickers, and I know I'm not the only one. And, frankly, all this talk about "don't play magickers, it hurts the gameworld" make me want to leave the gameworld.
5. I feel that some of the current "magicker epidemic" is basically just hype. I have, personally, met maybe five or six "wild magickers" with my mundane characters... and that's counting four years of playing, not just the current influx. When I hear people say stuff like "you need to be a magicker to survive in the wild these days", I just have to laugh, because:
A) A newbie ranger is far better equipped to survive in the wild than a newbie magicker,
B) some magickers, even after 30+ days of playing, are still not particularly good at surviving in the wilds, and
C) it's just blatant exaggeration.
Chillax, everybody, wait this out, and enjoy the light show as all the Krathis eventually blow themselves up.

[TiberiusAlaric]

I saw magickers do the conga line from 'Nak to Tuluk. Nerf!!11111 :x

[Halaster]

Also, keep in mind that many of the new spells are useless. Halaster mentioned it on the boards once that a lot of the new stuff is just eye candy

I did?  Hunh.  When?  'cause that ain't necessarily true, we've put in a few nasties.

I do agree with LoD in that the current trend is a result of a long chain of IC events, on some level.  Mages in the north are forced into certain niches and roles (not unlike a gemmer?).  This is important to understand:  Tuluk made a choice, and Tuluk is living with the results of that choice.  I'm not saying we shouldn't have made that choice for the city, I think it's cool.  Things are unbalanced - and I like it that way.  It's never been meant to be balanced.

I don't disagree with LoD entirely, though I'm not as worried or perceive it to be as big of a problem.   The game changes, and I like that it changes, and has changed.

Having said that, I would also like to see 'other' things for mages in the wilds to do than what they have.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Halaster wrote:

FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit wrote:

Also, keep in mind that many of the new spells are useless. Halaster mentioned it on the boards once that a lot of the new stuff is just eye candy

I did? Hunh. When? 'cause that ain't necessarily true, we've put in a few nasties.

Well, that wasn't exactly what you said. You said at first you spent a lot of time on making the "nasties", making magickers nice and scary and everything... and now, with that more or less accomplished, you're working on making it "pretty", I believe your terminology was.
My point was that not ALL of the new spells are Fireballs and Lightning. A few are Magic Missiles and Prestidigitation.
I'll try and find the link, if you'd like.

[LoD]

Addressing the OP:
I found your timeline of Northern history to be rather interesting, but I don't really agree that any of these developments are bad or detrimental.

I don't believe they are inherently bad or detrimental either.  I was using the timeline as an explanation for why some players (who have been posting in other threads) may feel there are "too many magickers".  I don't personally feel there -are- too many, just that these events have removed them from an environment where they blended into a much larger society and dumped them squarely into BFE leaving a few surprised tribals saying, "WTF!?"

The problem is there's no limited source of magicker apps.  There's nothing stemming the flow of brand new magickers popping up as soon as the previous one got themselves killed.  And so mundane players sharing land with these "secret magick folk" are being forced to deal with them much more regularly than years past.  The magick they can wield is amazingly powerful, to the point where tribes might feel bullied by at least the frequency (if not the volume) of the magicker presence.

Magickers should be trying desperately to survive. I don't see what the problem is here. You say you want to see less magickers, and the solution you propose is to give them some form of amnesty in the North? Huh? Magick, and the hatred thereof, is a big part of Armageddon, and I wouldn't want to see either reduced or eliminated.

I didn't propose a solution.  I certainly didn't request magickers to receive amnesty.  What I asked for were suggestions on how we can give the rogue magicker in the northlands something to do other than "get buff, get bored, get bold."  I see them teetering on the same edge that halflings, gith, and mantis often walk; what RP potential do we have as a group if our niche role is generally "hated and hunted"?  We may have a few moments where someone decides to go against the generally accepted method of interaction (w;w;draw sword;scream;kill magicker), but the bulk of the interaction will probably be magickers defending themselves.

I'd like to see more opportunities for magickers to pursue aspects of a normal life were available as part of a community.  Having relationships, raising a family, tending to a home, pursuing a career, making friends, balancing fun with work.  I fear that rogue magickers have a tendency to play the "secretive mage" more because of a lack of options than a lack of creativity.

I'd just like to see more options.

-LoD

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Hmm. I can imagine a dwarven mage setting his focus to be the establishment of a sanctuum somewhere in the Northlands, and gather mages and mundane dwarves to his call. They could build a tower/fortress, perhaps on the spur of the Shield Wall with Kurac's blessing. The sanctuum would be self-sustaining, but open for trade. Nothing but a full-fledged siege would take it down.

This would help to put the mages back into the ant farm and give the dwarves a stronghold of their own at the same time.

[Intrepid]

I'd like to see more opportunities for magickers to pursue aspects of a normal life were available as part of a community.  Having relationships, raising a family, tending to a home, pursuing a career, making friends, balancing fun with work.  I fear that rogue magickers have a tendency to play the "secretive mage" more because of a lack of options than a lack of creativity.

Are you saying that some of the playerbase are being just a mage as their occupation and goals?  If so, I would have to agree with you, and this may be why you've seen mages with no discretion.

This kind of situation is an error, as all character concepts should revolve around some idea or angle from which they approach life.  Magick may simplify or complicate this approach.  It could even be some form of alter ego.  The help files regarding mage creation state that all mages are people first and mages second.

[LoD]

Are you saying that some of the playerbase are being just a mage as their occupation and goals?  If so, I would have to agree with you, and this may be why you've seen mages with no discretion.

Yes.  I'm further saying that the present arrangement (rogue magickers in the wild) breeds this type of behavior because of a lack of options.  There is no "magicker hideout" or "magicker haven" that they can choose to dwell within and socialize with their peers, build a home, have a job, etc...  Magickers had this option when Old Tuluk still permitted them within its walls.  The illusion of acceptance through tolerance was enough to give these people a much broader range of roles; employees of Houses, friends of street thugs, scouts of the City, misunderstood friends...

Without the city, or some community, allowing magickers a chance to pursue something without the fear of being "discovered", players are more apt to slip into a series of stereotypes and/or similar roles playing the raider, the invisible bully, the avenger, etc... Partially because they are given few other options, and partially because it's the easier of two roads to travel.  Why have parents when I can pretend they're dead.  Why worry about a family when I can be a "rogue magicker"?  Why have relationships when I'm always running around the desert?  Why lead a peaceful life when everyone's trying to kill me?

The "on the run" setup is conducive to repetitive character concepts that focus too much on common themes of vengeance, mischief, dominance, and violence.  I'd like to see more options provided for ungemmed mages besides playing "mage vs. everyone".

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe I'm being dense... but isn't the elementalist quarter of Allanak a haven where magickers can socialize and openly be magickers (relativly) without fear?  Why does the game require another such place?

[TiberiusAlaric]

Maybe I'm being dense... but isn't the elementalist quarter of Allanak a haven where magickers can socialize and openly be magickers (relativly) without fear?  Why does the game require another such place?

Because, apparently, those very Magickers are still extremely restricted in their interaction due to the all the laws placed upon them.

[Marauder Moe]

Laws?  They're restricted in their interactions with mundanes because most mundanes don't like them, as it should be.  There's no laws against gemmed socializing with other gemmed, though.

LoD seems to be saying, if I read it right, that rogue magickers live only to grow powerful and raid mundanes because they have no other options.  That's ridiculous, though.  They can choose to make a gemmed magicker, or they can choose to make a hidden magicker.  Each choice (wild, hidden, or gemmed) has its advantages and its disadvantages.  Desiring a magicker haven free of the influence of either city where magickers can frolic and do happy sparkly magick things all day long sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

[spawnloser]

I agree that many ungemmed are forced to be a magicker before being something else, like a tailor or a jeweler or what-have-you, as LoD is suggesting.  However, I think there is some IC justification for this as well.  Most people are taught that magickers are magickers.  It doesn't matter what they do, because first and foremost, they are a foul, dirty, curse-wielding maniac.

[Xygax]

Maybe I'm being dense... but isn't the elementalist quarter of Allanak a haven where magickers can socialize and openly be magickers (relativly) without fear?  Why does the game require another such place?

You are being dense, since the original post was almost entirely concerned with "hidden" elementalists inhabiting the northlands regions.

-- X

[Lazloth]

LoD seems to be saying, if I read it right, that rogue magickers live only to grow powerful and raid mundanes because they have no other options.

That's not what I read, at least in the initial posts.  I assumed this was another in the series on game changes (qv., tribal and merchant topics) - which carried more of a nostalgic "I remember when.." quality for me, rather than a "This is broken." feel.

That said, I dislike much of the sentiment in this thread.  The analogy to the smashed anthill seems to support that the OP is not implying that there are too many magickers (further buttressed by numbers posted by staff), but that they are "too visible."  I will likewise not concede that there are too many players playing magickers (I don't see the evidence) and further do not want to be restricted from what I can choose to create.  [Proposed limits to allowed number of classes are (imho) artificial and cannot account for different types of players (40hr/week vs the 4hr/week player, for example).]

Touching on the Cataclysm- to share a shortened real-world anecdote:  prior to 9/11, I lived a pretty swinging lifestyle.  For close to a decade, I worked for various consulting firms, and thanks to the booming bubble, my road-warrior career paid off with great perks.  Following the Event (and ignoring other factors like diminished corporate IT spending - work was there, just not as lucrative), travel evolved from a seamless routine to an onerous process - so much so, that it became the deciding factor in my coming off the road.  I, and people like me (surprisingly many), began to infiltrate the local corporate climate; employees who have been in their positions for five, eight, twelve years not only remain locked in their roles, but now report to a new breed of peers and management who entered with higher salaries, better titles.  I evolved domestically; I now have two kids and a life in suburbia.

The point?  Things happen that are beyond control and the rules change.

Things will adapt again.  Players do have an ability to shape the world, and I can think of a staff member pulled out of retirement whose project might make for a nice landing spot for northern magickers, rather than the same six or eight quitsafe locations that you seem to (surprise) find rogue casters remaining near.