Selecting Stats - A New Perspective

[Armaddict]

*snicker* And you honestly believe that this won't happen? I doubt that bub.

I notice a lot of rocket scientists are smart, a lot of boxers strong, a lot of wrestlers agile, a lot of runners very fit, too.

Just because there's a 'cookie-cutter' form of a guild that most will go into doesn't mean that it's inaccurate or bad.

[Malken]

Ahh, the good ol' smell of, "I'm probably better than you because I play hardcore" Armageddon threads.

[Anonymous]

I am going to derail completely so I apologize.

Why do our discussions break down into "Your afraid of change/You want to twink easier" arguments?

I sometimes feel it is completely friggen useless to post on here because no one reads your post and writes
a reply. They just read the topic post make a reply and nothing else. For f'n sakes people why not use the
General Discussion Board for general discussion? If you don't like the idea state reasons why that maybe
someone else hasn't thought of but, don't bitch about things being easier or how others just won't change.
Both of the previous examples of people don't read the boards to discuss anything anyways so quite making them
your target audience. Instead think of people like me that are willing to listen and make a decision based
on ideas and facts stated (as I stated on a previous post I am sure the complainers didn't read: I wasn't
on board for this idea but I didn't shoot it down either. I listened to ideas and also posted a question to the staff
and things were explained out.) Now lets either
A.) Discuss this (which I feel there is no more need to do since
the staff have stated the facts on it) or
B.) Someone just lock this thread since many of the posts aren't on
subject discussing the pros and cons at all.

p.s. Before anyone yells about I shouldn't moderate the board or the imms will take care of it own. Please
notice I am not telling anyone what to do, just stating what I notice and hopefully bringing it into view
to a few others so in the future. Discussions can be discussions, if you have no intention of listening or arguing
the about topic (not about the posters) then your really just wasting the readers' time.

[spawnloser]

Just because you're scared that everyone will be picking stats in the same way again and again doesn't mean that it will happen.

*snicker* And you honestly believe that this won't happen? I doubt that bub.

I don't.  I know quite a few people that play this game and have discussed concepts before.  I know people that have both a concept for a smart but not strong warrior and a dumb but strong warrior, or agile warrior, or tough warrior...etc.

Me, I know what different stats give to you, and I can assure you that I will almost NEVER play the 'strong warrior' concept.  What this, basically, allows is for you to play someone that you'll know the strengths of beforehand and thus tailor your background to that, giving further depth to the character, instead of having to append once you get the stats or simply just be vague.

I want stat ordering for what it will allow you to do for the character, not with the character.

Editted to add: From what we've been told, yes, you will be able to choose whether to order or not.

[Wolfram]

Just because you're scared that everyone will be picking stats in the same way again and again doesn't mean that it will happen.

*snicker* And you honestly believe that this won't happen? I doubt that bub.

I don't.  I know quite a few people that play this game and have discussed concepts before.  I know people that have both a concept for a smart but not strong warrior and a dumb but strong warrior, or agile warrior, or tough warrior...etc.

Me, I know what different stats give to you, and I can assure you that I will almost NEVER play the 'strong warrior' concept.  What this, basically, allows is for you to play someone that you'll know the strengths of beforehand and thus tailor your background to that, giving further depth to the character, instead of having to append once you get the stats or simply just be vague.

I want stat ordering for what it will allow you to do for the character, not with the character.

Editted to add: From what we've been told, yes, you will be able to choose whether to order or not.

QFT.  Also, if I was shooting for coded advantages by stat ordering, I would have a different order for each guild.  That order would also be affected by what profession or lifestyle I wished for my character.

[Majikal]

All I know is I'm not to thrilled about the stat ordering.. every mage and mage wannabe is gonna be ordering there stats wis first, thieftypes with agi first, warriors could go any way as well as rangers.. but it takes away alot of the looks can be deceiving and changes the chance of ending up with a mage or pickpocket being gimpy. I'd rather see just an option for a second reroll rather than ordering of stats.

random stats is one of the things I liked most about character creation.

[Dalmeth]

All I know is I'm not to thrilled about the stat ordering.. every mage and mage wannabe is gonna be ordering there stats wis first, thieftypes with agi first, warriors could go any way as well as rangers.. but it takes away alot of the looks can be deceiving and changes the chance of ending up with a mage or pickpocket being gimpy. I'd rather see just an option for a second reroll rather than ordering of stats.

random stats is one of the things I liked most about character creation.

'

Uhh, personally, I would be willing to experiment with different sorts of stat arrangements.  Every stat is important.  Though I will say that it really sucks to have the stat your job depends on to be your lowest.

[Delirium]

If you like random stats, you will have the option to choose random stats.

Personally, I rarely care how my stats fall, but there are times when it would be nice to select preferences in alignment with a character concept (and yes, I'm aware that you can make an entire character without selecting stats, but there is the rare smart weakling or buff stupid-head, etc, that stat ordering would be convenient for).  My most compelling example would be, perhaps, a concept I had for a chronically sick vivaduan who relied on their magicks to keep them alive - being able to put endurance last on the scale would be great for that one.

[desert_spider_eater]

random stats is one of the things I liked most about character creation.

Still gonna be in.    :lol:

[desert_spider_eater]

If you like random stats, you will have the option to choose random stats.

Personally, I rarely care how my stats fall, but there are times when it would be nice to select preferences in alignment with a character concept (and yes, I'm aware that you can make an entire character without selecting stats, but there is the rare smart weakling or buff stupid-head, etc, that stat ordering would be convenient for).  My most compelling example would be, perhaps, a concept I had for a chronically sick vivaduan who relied on their magicks to keep them alive - being able to put endurance last on the scale would be great for that one.

I like this perspective, a lot.  Picking what you're worst at.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

If choosing random stats is your preference, why not also have random weight and height? Random age? You could make a little boy character, and be pleasantly surprised with him being 62 years old and taller than most of his race, when your description has him as a short and chubby kid.

The idea that random stats benefits the process of character design just doesn't make sense to me. You tailor a character concept with such detail, only to praise randomness at the same time. Making detailed chars is great, but having randomly generated aspects is also part of that detailed process, right? How does that make sense? Let's look at the character creation process.

You spend time thinking of a background for your character. What kind of person is he or she? What do they do in life? What are their goals? Where do they come from, and do they have a family? Most of us are familiar with the system.

You spend time thinking of a physical description for your character.  This is highly influenced by your character's background. If they are an ex-gladiator slave, you can imagine there may be some scars or muscle or injuries, but if there isn't.. why? The character doesn't have to be some "cookie-cutter" gladiator, but you need to think of the details on why they don't appear like the normal gladiator. They need details, details, details.

You spend time thinking of the polishing touches for your character where the code is concerned. How tall will they be? How heavy? And how old a character fits the character background that was made? What class/guild will the character be? Sub skills? Do you special app for particular skills that fall outside the normal classes/guilds if this is a special character role?

Everything is done to tailor the character, except determining stats. What kind of stats is my character most likely to have based on their life history and physical description? Um.. actually.. nah. On second thought, I don't want to do this last part of my character design. DICE ROLL PLEASE!!!!!

Why? Why so much detail, and then this throw away aspect of stats when everything else has been tailored? I've read arguments that:

My main argument against stat ordering is that it's not neccesarily realistic.  I don't believe that everyone should have natural affinity (stats) for their chosen profession (guild).  I think people who have great stats that support their guild should be somewhat rare.  I've elaborated on this further in the past.

First problem with that argument is that it isn't the character choosing their statistics. Character creation has nothing to do with what the character feels would be best.

Second problem with that argument, is that whatever reasons could be applied to why choosing stat priority isn't realistic, can also be applied to why choosing your height and weight isn't realistic. So unless someone with this argument wants to argue that height and weight should ideally be randomly determined, this argument doesn't hold any weight.. or height.

The code, to my knowledge, already reflects this upon creation of the character. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems that the warriors I usually pick and age/height/weight factors in to their strength. And with assassins, I seem to notice a trend of my pc's having low strength and high agility. Again, perhaps I am wrong, though I do strongly believe the code reflects this. Because of this reason, I really don't see the need to order stats.

The fact that you realize you "could be wrong" here is a reflection of how inconsistent stats tend to be, regardless of guild/class choice. If you made 10 assassins characters in a row, what do you think the chances of 5 of them having agility as their highest stat would be? Would you be willing to bet money on it?

And anyway, the problem with this argument is that if you want to make an assassin who's strongest stat isn't agility, or a warrior who's strongest stat isn't strength, what do you do? Even assuming the code already picked stat priorities based on your guild (which it doesn't), why should character guild reflect what your stat priorities _have_ to be? Also, this argument clashes with anyone who adores the philosophy of random stats, because it suggests that stats have never been randomly ordered. That isn't relevant to my argument, but I thought I'd point that out.

every mage and mage wannabe is gonna be ordering there stats wis first, thieftypes with agi first, warriors could go any way as well as rangers.. but it takes away alot of the looks can be deceiving and changes the chance of ending up with a mage or pickpocket being gimpy.

Could you give an example on how stat ordering would remove the "looks can be deceiving" aspect of character, and how this would present itself in an in-game situation? My interpretation of the argument right now is:

"When you ran into another PC, and he tried to do something with the code and failed, it was cool to know he might have failed the attempt because of a low stat. Even if you couldn't be sure that was why he failed, there was a certain "looks can be deceiving" aspect of knowing that maybe he failed because his stats were low. Now, with stat ordering, if someone succeeds at something in the code, you can attribute their success to their stats. Assuming of course, the action that was done is actually related to the stat that the player chose as a stat priority for their character. This is why stat ordering ruins the "looks can be deceiving" aspect of characters."

If this is the argument, and I've accurately captured your definition of "looks can be deceiving" where stat ordering is concerned, then you're right. It ruins your aspect of "looks can be deceiving", and you'd be the first person that actually has convinced me that stat ordering will negatively affect how you previously were playing the game. But while the notion of muscular men being codedly muscular may be a bit boring, and not quite as cool as OOCly knowing their description may reflect absolutely nothing where their stats are concerned, I have a feeling that there will still be plenty of surprises to look forward to.

[Hymwen]

What he/she said.

[LauraMars]

Stuff.

Quoted for truth.

[Jakahri]

The code, to my knowledge, already reflects this upon creation of the character. Perhaps I am wrong[....]

The fact that you realize you "could be wrong" here is a reflection of how inconsistent stats tend to be, regardless of guild/class choice. If you made 10 assassins characters in a row, what do you think the chances of 5 of them having agility as their highest stat would be?

Very high.

Would you be willing to bet money on it?

This bears no true relevance to the discussion at hand. I was attempting to be humble and courteous in my post, rather than come off as a pompous bigot who "knows" he is right.

To humor you though, my answer is "yes":  I'd bet money on my hypothesis.

And anyway, the problem with this argument is that if you want to make an assassin who's strongest stat isn't agility, or a warrior who's strongest stat isn't strength, what do you do?

Wish up and ask for staff to lower your incredible roll if it bothers you that much. Otherwise, just roleplay around it. I did this exact thing very recently with a somewhat crippled and aging man who had to use his staff for support on many occassions, even though code-wise he had incredible agility and strength.

Also, this argument clashes with anyone who adores the philosophy of random stats, because it suggests that stats have never been randomly ordered. That isn't relevant to my argument, but I thought I'd point that out.

I didn't know I was arguing that point. Alrighty then.

Could you give an example on how stat ordering would remove the "looks can be deceiving" aspect of character, and how this would present itself in an in-game situation?

Absolutely. My previous character serves as an excellent example of how looks can be deceiving. I initially created a concept of a man who was aging and half-crippled due to sustaining countless wounds in battle over his years of service. I, however, rolled AI strength and amazing agility as well. Everyone I ran into most likely viewed my character privately as a weak and pathetic individual. However, I think I clearly removed all doubts of the pc's potential when I layed absolute waste to anything that stood before me. This would not have happened if stat ordering were in place and was utilized for my character. I can't imagine the look on people's faces when they saw a hunched over and aging man obliterate his foes within seconds.

My conclusion: Stat ordering will essentially eliminate this "looks can be deceiving" attitude because we all know through common sense that everyone who now has "muscular" in their description likely chose strength as a high end roll for their concept. There will be no more uniqueness. There will be no more secrets. Everyone will now know that nearly every (and I say every because I do not feel like making an erroneous statement and declaring that 100% of the pbase will follow this route) player will pick wisdom as their main attribute for mages, agility for assassins, strength for warriors, strength/endurance for d.elves, and so on.

The thrill of rolling an invisible die and crossing your fingers that you finally roll that amazing stat is now taken away because you can increase your chances of rolling that stat by simply ordering stats. Meh, I say.

[Hymwen]

I can't imagine the look on people's faces when they saw a hunched over and aging man obliterate his foes within seconds.

Is that realistic?



Edited to add some more:

Edit: Edited to remove the "some more" and make it a reply instead

[LauraMars]

I can't imagine the look on people's faces when they saw a hunched over and aging man obliterate his foes within seconds.

Is that realistic?

That is not realistic.

[Jakahri]

I can't imagine the look on people's faces when they saw a hunched over and aging man obliterate his foes within seconds.

Is that realistic?

Why wouldn't it be? The man was incredibly skilled in all forms of weapons. You don't have to be big and burly to be strong.

Besides, I still played the character as rather weak and crippled. Only when in times of dire need did he call upon his reserves and other sources to truly unleash hell (or Drov, mind you).

People who want their Byn warrior to be physically strong (and where is the problem in that?) can have that. People who want their agile d-elf thief (again, how is there anything wrong? It's only fitting) can have it their way. I simply cannot see why anyone finds it wrong that you can now choose to have stats that fit your description, and is it so unrealistic that warriors become strong, merchants are smart and thieves have quick fingers?

The "cheese" factor of this new implementation is my main gripe, as I have stated before. Cookie-cutter characters are simply not fun. I'm sorry not everyone shares my view on this matter. *le sigh*

That is not realistic.

Yes, it was, for various reasons. Check your pm please. I will not divulge any further on this board, and I'm done for sure this time (I swear. No, REALLY, I swear double this time).

Thanks,

Jakahri

[Hymwen]

Should there really be the option of being that deceiving? Sure, you can be a somewhat lean guy who knows how to make use of his muscles, or the surprisingly quick fat lady, but should a crippled old geezer have the strength of a mul on aggros, and should a crone with no arms and half a leg have the agility of a d-elf? With stat ordering, you'll still have the option for the "looks can be deceiving" approach, only you can choose it if you want to instead of thinking of a concept, rolling lopsided stats, and being forced to either ignore it or play in a way that you wanted when creating your character. How can it possibly be a good thing to have to avert from what you originally wanted?

I personally cannot see the problem in stat ordering. People who want their Byn warrior to be physically strong (and where is the problem in that?) can have that. People who want their agile d-elf thief (again, how is there anything wrong? It's only fitting) can have it their way. I simply cannot see why anyone finds it wrong that you can now choose to have stats that fit your description, and is it so unrealistic that warriors become strong, merchants are smart and thieves have quick fingers?

In my opinion, if your character is crippled and can hardly walk, and the description does not match the attribute somewhat, you simply shouldn't be that strong. It can happen by accident because of dice rolls, but if you plan to play a crippled man and roll an AI strength, IMO you should either wish up to have it lowered, or if your character is not likely to ever have it affect them (I.E never fights) you should just ignore it and play as if you were weak. I haven't seen your description so I don't know if your PC was described as weak, or simply a strong man who was crippled beacuse of old injuries, but if you're that strong, you will have large muscles, you don't magically gain the strength of three men just because you were a warrior before you became crippled. If you have twig-like arms and a spine made of jelly, you won't lift a wagon.

[LauraMars]

This is an unrealistic game.

(which is part of its appeal)

[Anonymous]

I keep seeing the "cookie cutter character" phrase being tossed around.
Are all bynners warriors? Some of the best merchants in the Game aren't
even merchants. I have played a sneak assassin that wasn't an assassin
also a dangerous "ranger" that was a pickpocket. So people haven't
started using guilds for "cookie cutter characters" I doubt they will use stats
and so the hell what if they do? Damn it I asked a buff guy to carry a chest for me
once and he couldn't lift it. My little girl on the other hand could, now the stats
rolling is still random so that could happen. It won't happen all the time
though. And in a world as harsh as armageddon I would expect anyone that
plans to be a warrior or fighter to spend every waking moment training
their body. In a world where you could lose your hand or head for taking
some bread, I would expect some thief to be developing his speed almost
his entire life. Again though I see everyone worrying about this ability
being twinked out. We are in an RPI mud and as I have stated before
I was hesitant but, this idea is getting better I think. I would just like a
person's preferences saved with the character so any imms that look
over them can see if the frail old man actually did str agi end wis.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Arguing for the random system because everyone is forced to OOCly surprise people with stats that don't reflect their char concept, is a valid argument. I don't agree that it helps contribute positively to the game world, but it will be something that will change after stat ordering is implemented, so  anyone who does enjoy the universal OOC surprise element will be forced to say goodbye to it, even though you can still choose random stats. Therefore, the argument is sound for anyone who is upset about the change.

Just out of curiosity, for those players who support the above argument, would you agree that:

a) muscular men being specifically coded as muscular is bad
b) muscular men being randomly coded as muscular is good
c) aging cripples being randomly coded as muscular is good
d) aging cripples being specifically coded as muscular is good

If the aging cripple is specifically coded as muscular by choice, that is still a "surprise" element to other players, right? So the surprise element of stats that don't match a character concept is retained, which is the entire basis of the argument that stat ordering eliminates the "looks can be deceiving" factor.

Ultimately, the argument would appear to conclude that:

a) muscular men being coded specifically as muscular is bad
b) aging cripples being coded as muscular is always good

If anyone wants to propose a _logical_ reason in a logical post why my logic here is faulty with the proposed argument, please do.

[joyofdiscord]

I would just like a person's preferences saved with the character so any imms that look over them can see if the frail old man actually did str agi end wis.

I don't see any problem with that.  I honestly don't suspect -any- stat ordering choice will be sufficient to make the char out-of-line with its other attributes.  In the case of the frail old man, his low weight will hinder his strength, and his age will nerf both strength and agility.   (Note: this is why I, personally, never thought that stat ordering was really necessary in the first place: age and weight yield -very- predictable results.  I have always gotten roughly the stats I expected when I apped my character.)  Ordering stats as mentioned above would be -perfectly- appropriate to portray a character who was very fit in his heyday but has declined since then.  Since age is already taken (heavily) into account in determining stats, I would regard the stat ordering to be basically timeless, reflecting the individual's innate potential.

[desert_spider_eater]

In the case of the frail old man, his low weight will hinder his strength, and his age will nerf both strength and agility.   (Note: this is why I, personally, never thought that stat ordering was really necessary in the first place: age and weight yield -very- predictable results.  I have always gotten roughly the stats I expected when I apped my character.)  Ordering stats as mentioned above would be -perfectly- appropriate to portray a character who was very fit in his heyday but has declined since then.  Since age is already taken (heavily) into account in determining stats, I would regard the stat ordering to be basically timeless, reflecting the individual's innate potential.

Being that AI is basically the roof, how does an aged cripple end up with AI strength in the first place?  Any takers?

[X-D]

Like Joyofdiscord.

I have ALWAYS gotten the stats I wanted with the correct choice of age/weight/height.

If you want agile, make em young, strong, young adult, that normaly gives end as well, wise mature to old, well rounded, middle of the age range.

Which is why way back when, many threads ago on the subject. I posted that stat ordering was already in.

Otherwise, I agree with Jakhari.

My conclusion: Stat ordering will essentially eliminate this "looks can be deceiving" attitude because we all know through common sense that everyone who now has "muscular" in their description likely chose strength as a high end roll for their concept. There will be no more uniqueness. There will be no more secrets. Everyone will now know that nearly every (and I say every because I do not feel like making an erroneous statement and declaring that 100% of the pbase will follow this route) player will pick wisdom as their main attribute for mages, agility for assassins, strength for warriors, strength/endurance for d.elves, and so on.

The thrill of rolling an invisible die and crossing your fingers that you finally roll that amazing stat is now taken away because you can increase your chances of rolling that stat by simply ordering stats. Meh, I say.

And to stat ordering, Blah I say.
Simply will feel less like Arm..sigh.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

X-D and JoyofDiscord, I suspect you have both been lucky, bucause I assure you ... not all of us have experienced the same.