Selecting Stats - A New Perspective

[Malken]

You can still get 'beefy' stats. Let's say you roll 15, 14, 13, 17.

You pick HG as a race.

You say you want strength to be your highest roll.

Let's pretend that HG gets a +3 to their strength stat.

The game will assign 17 to strength, and then add the bonus to it. So you end of with the equivalent in words to 20 strength.

Of course, I'm just speaking out of thin air. But that's how I'd do it.

[spawnloser]

Your chances of getting any particular stats (an by this I mean what values you're getting) are NO different than before.  You just choose which stat goes where.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And that's the key, and why I am so in favor of this change to Chargen. You choose where the highest stat goes. And if you want that high stat in the races strong stat, then so be it, but you'll suffer elsewhere.

I can't wait for this.

[desert_spider_eater]

Yes, never again will you write a description for that burly human with a tree trunk neck and chainsaws for arms who ends up with below average strength.  

[Medena]

Your chances of getting any particular stats (an by this I mean what values you're getting) are NO different than before.  You just choose which stat goes where.

From what I understand, no more beefy stat chances.

Gimme some o' dat mind altering substance you bin smokin'.

[mansa]

So, modifiers get added -after- the stats are picked?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, never again will you write a description for that burly human with a tree trunk neck and chainsaws for arms who ends up with below average strength.  

Smartass.

Still, it will be a lot less likely.

[Marauder Moe]

Yes, never again will you write a description for that burly human with a tree trunk neck and chainsaws for arms who ends up with below average strength.  

Unless below average is your highest stat roll...

[Morgenes]

Unless below average is your highest stat roll...

You will still be able to reroll once, and you can still improve attributes through submission of roleplay logs.

Things will only be better after this, not worse.

[spawnloser]

Your chances of getting any particular stats (an by this I mean what values you're getting) are NO different than before.  You just choose which stat goes where.

From what I understand, no more beefy stat chances.

Gimme some o' dat mind altering substance you bin smokin'.

(blink)

(blink blink)

wtf?  Are you saying that these statements don't agree?

[flurry]

So, modifiers get added -after- the stats are picked?

I imagine that must be how it will work.  It would make no sense to apply the modifiers first.

[Aldiel]

This is a derail, but what do we think the chances of roling an Absolutely Incredibly are.  I'm hoping they are around 1/30, or something like that.  Frankely, I think average stats aren't so average.  I find that somewhere between average and good is kind of average.

[Cale_Knight]

This is a derail, but what do we think the chances of roling an Absolutely Incredibly are.  I'm hoping they are around 1/30, or something like that.  Frankely, I think average stats aren't so average.

It's impossible to say because we're missing two vital pieces of information.

1) What the numerical range of stats are.
2) Whether rolls are completely random or weighted.

[Vesperas]

I dunno, guys, this sort of freaks me out.  I'm trying to read through the thread, cutting through the crap, but this is all still a little over my head.

My very first thought to reading this:

Code Select Expand


Morgenes wrote:
Stat ordering will be going in soon.


was something like this:

Code Select Expand


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


And I'm sure Yokunama can confirm that.


I know just as well as anyone just how much you can have "the perfect concept" totally screwed over by two shitty rolls in a row.  Oooh, how I know.  I've been working myself into this "Stats don't matter" mentality ever since starting to play, but every so often, something comes up and I am reminded all over again about how they DO work into gameplay, no matter how much I want to pretend they don't.

But what I'm afraid of seeing are the cliche stat roles.. you know, magickers/merchants with wisdom as a primary, and warriors picking strength or agility.

While I'm all up for making everything in the game as customizable as possible, I still like there being an element of randomness and realism to the world.  I honestly doubt there are that many people who purposely will pick low stats for PCs they intend to play for a very long time.  I still prefer the wish-up-and-ask-nicely method and just sitting back and reminding yourself its about roleplay and not stat-rolls, but I know a lot of people are pushing for less work on the imms.

Maybe someone can put my fears at ease with less mumbo-jumbo.  Obviously, I expect that racial mins/maxes will always be observed -- that's not what I'm worried about.  If we really are going to allow a great deal more control over what stats get rolled in what order, maybe we can add in some balances -- actual negatives for having a high score in a particular stat.  (People who are particularly beefy IRL are often easily exhausted because of a blood-flow problem to muscles, for example).  Of course, that would mean MORE work.. heh.

Er, I guess to summarize:

I'm really afraid of this idea.  I don't want to see (or be allowed to fall into) warriors-are-strong and mages-are-wise roles.




[/code]

[desert_spider_eater]

Frankely, I think average stats aren't so average.  I find that somewhere between average and good is kind of average.

As I've noticed with all RPGs, the characters we play somehow deviate from the norm, at least enough to make the story interesting to tell.  I would guess that the stat values are actually relative to what is considered the average in this campaign's society.  So "average" may not be so average amongst the playerbase, but rather, in that society, yes.

Just my thought, don't flame me or anything.

[Larrath]

That might be an idea.
To preserve the randomness, perhaps giving priority to a stat would give that stat a slight penalty, so picking Random stats would give overall higher stats.

Do you want to try for the AI, or would you settle for an EG/Exceptional?

[desert_spider_eater]

But what I'm afraid of seeing are the cliche stat roles.. you know, magickers/merchants with wisdom as a primary, and warriors picking strength or agility.

I fail to see how this would be cliche, rather than simply make sense.  Allowing stats to be chosen gives you more flexibility in shaping your concept before you submit a background.

While I'm all up for making everything in the game as customizable as possible, I still like there being an element of randomness and realism to the world.

In the "real world," a merchant with below average wisdom and extremely good strength will invariably end up working construction.   :wink:

[Vesperas]

But what I'm afraid of seeing are the cliche stat roles.. you know, magickers/merchants with wisdom as a primary, and warriors picking strength or agility.

I fail to see how this would be cliche, rather than simply make sense.  Allowing stats to be chosen gives you more flexibility in shaping your concept before you submit a background.

It makes sense, from a tactical point of view, but thats what makes it cliche.  You're going to find that a large number of applied warrior characters are going to have a focus on strength.  Afterwards, you are probably going to see some sort of effects of this shift in-game -- it will become EXPECTED that warriors are beefy, unless they are wiry, in which case, people are going to automatically assume to see them have higher agility (and if they don't, one can assume their other stats have a good probability of sucking).  

In the "real world," a merchant with below average wisdom and extremely good strength will invariably end up working construction.   :wink:

You say that like 'below average' means retardation. Hehe, to my knowledge, 'below average' is perfectly capable of working on par or exceeding 'absolutely incredible' folks.    ESPECIALLY in academia.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I used to be against ordered stats, but the idea is starting to grow on me. It's frustrating making that scrawny, piss-stain of a character and ending up with exceptional strength and AI endurance. There have also been times when I've said to myself, "Gee, I really want to play a strong warrior-type, so I can expirement with using big weapons, like halberds and such." But I don't want to bother with a special app, so I just roll up a warrior and hope for the best. And, almost invariably, the poor feck will end up with below average strength.
So, yeah, I'm looking forward to making my next character with this change in place.

[Yokunama]

While I'm all up for making everything in the game as customizable as possible, I still like there being an element of randomness and realism to the world.

In the "real world," a merchant with below average wisdom and extremely good strength will invariably end up working construction.   :wink:

Thats not true, desert_spider_eater.

It just means that the merchant will not be as smart as other merchants. Maybe the merchant cant do their taxes as well as the others. Like in the real world, some people tend to do things they are not fit for - They just have to work harder and put in a little more effort than those who are.

[desert_spider_eater]

It makes sense, from a tactical point of view, but thats what makes it cliche.  You're going to find that a large number of applied warrior characters are going to have a focus on strength.  Afterwards, you are probably going to see some sort of effects of this shift in-game -- it will become EXPECTED that warriors are beefy, unless they are wiry, in which case, people are going to automatically assume to see them have higher agility (and if they don't, one can assume their other stats have a good probability of sucking).

I can see what you're saying, but I still want to think it's random, simply because the statistics are still rolled randomly.

EDIT:  Stat ordering would give a lot of freedom to the people who want to do a concept that is not so cliche, on the other hand, too.  That was my thoughts when this was going to be put in.  Rather than waiting for the right character to get the right roll.

[Yokunama]

I used to be against ordered stats, but the idea is starting to grow on me. It's frustrating making that scrawny, piss-stain of a character and ending up with exceptional strength and AI endurance. There have also been times when I've said to myself, "Gee, I really want to play a strong warrior-type, so I can expirement with using big weapons, like halberds and such." But I don't want to bother with a special app, so I just roll up a warrior and hope for the best. And, almost invariably, the poor feck will end up with below average strength.

nLike in the real world, you do not eed to be a beefy brute to have good strength.

I can understand where you are comming from, when you make those characters whom -need- certain characteristics and end up with a complete mess.

[desert_spider_eater]

As an example, let's say you want to make that tactical genius who is fascinated by the lore and art of war.  Though by no means you have to be, let's say you pick a warrior guild.  Now, you get your rolls, and you get blah blah strength, endurance and agility, but you end up with poor wisdom.  But you wanted to be Rommel, not Patton.  Great.  Do you ditch this concept, and play your run-of-the-mill sword swinger?  Do you waste a stab at playing this concept on someone who could never be even close to good at it?

Stat ordering makes this quandry irrelevant.  That's what I like about it.  The freedom to play well what you wanted to play.

[Yokunama]

Do you waste a stab at playing this concept on someone who could never be even close to good at it?

I usually roll with the punches.

With a lot of hard work and effort, your character will more than likely become 'a lot' better than "exceptional joe". IMO, skills come before stats, unless there is something I'm aiming for before the concept.

[Vesperas]

Yeah.. but...

What is wisdom except a measurement of your coded learning curve?  You can still play the calculating general without wisdom -- its not really a requirement.  You're tactician just had to work a little harder to become what he's become.