Selecting Stats - A New Perspective

[desert_spider_eater]

Yeah.. but...

What is wisdom except a measurement of your coded learning curve?  You can still play the calculating general without wisdom -- its not really a requirement.  You're tactician just had to work a little harder to become what he's become.

So basically, you're saying you don't like stat ordering because of the people who will use it solely for a coded advantage.

[Vesperas]

No.

I'm saying that I'm praying I don't see this shift in the mentality revolving around "What is a <insert class here>?" where the 'primary' stat choice becomes so popular for that said class, that it becomes expected to have that stat ICly -- a parallel to this (although not the best example in the world, since the effects are different) is how people OOCly know that merchants have Cavilish, and except in the instance where someone learned this langauge manually or special apped, Cavilish == Merchant.

By my previous post, I was trying to point out that not getting your primary stat in that instance would not have destroyed the concept.

[Delirium]

a parallel to this is how people OOCly know that merchants have Cavilish, and except in the instance where someone learned this langauge manually or special apped, Cavilish == Merchant.

Which is why it truly bothers me that Cavilish isn't in a subguild.

[Vesperas]

Personally, I'd much rather just see the guild and subguild pages rewritten to present them as skillsets rather than pre-set roles than all this trouble with changing how stats are done, but then that would open up a whole new can of worms for people trying to figure out branching.

[flurry]

I'm saying that I'm praying I don't see this shift in the mentality revolving around "What is a <insert class here>?" where the 'primary' stat choice becomes so popular for that said class, that it becomes expected to have that stat ICly -- a parallel to this (although not the best example in the world, since the effects are different) is how people OOCly know that merchants have Cavilish, and except in the instance where someone learned this langauge manually or special apped, Cavilish == Merchant.

I may be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're worried about guild-sniffing based on what a PC's dominant stat seems to be?  If so, I don't think that's something to worry about.  For starters, trying to gauge someone else's stats seems to be a difficult endeavor (except maybe a particular stat or two in limited situations).  Also, I think people playing the same guild are going to make different choices.   Also, one person could pick strength first, and still have a lower strength than someone who picked strength last.   Bottom line: I think this would be a difficult and unreliable way for someone to guild-sniff.

[flurry]

a parallel to this is how people OOCly know that merchants have Cavilish, and except in the instance where someone learned this langauge manually or special apped, Cavilish == Merchant.

Which is why it truly bothers me that Cavilish isn't in a subguild.

I'd rather keep it as is.  There are other skills and abilities unique to other mundane guilds, and I think it would be bad if they were available in subguilds as well.  And those can't be learned, like Cavilish.

[Xygax]

Let's not hijack this thread to rehash the Cavilish debate for the fourty-seven thousandth time.

-- X

[desert_spider_eater]

I dig what you're saying, Vesperas, and I agree that it has -potential- to affect the game the way you say, but I'm idealistic, and want to think this stat change would open up the possibility for people to try something different than the norm for some, or something very simple and mundane.  When you break it down, for me it ends up being about enjoying the ability to choose.

- Marduk

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm saying that I'm praying I don't see this shift in the mentality revolving around "What is a <insert class here>?" where the 'primary' stat choice becomes so popular for that said class, that it becomes expected to have that stat ICly -- a parallel to this (although not the best example in the world, since the effects are different) is how people OOCly know that merchants have Cavilish, and except in the instance where someone learned this langauge manually or special apped, Cavilish == Merchant.

Speaking very personally, I have a large number of character concepts written up. In them, I have a lot of warriors. Of my warriors, 5 have strength as the primary stat, 3 have agility as the primary stat, 4 have endurance, and 2 have wisdom.

I think it's safe to say that they'll be little railroading of stats. You'll continue to see plenty of characters with varied good stats, except now, you'll be much more confident of that hulking character's ability to lift the couch, or the wiry fellow to be slick with slipping away from things unharmed.

[jstorrie]

The majority of my character concepts are not tied to stats because I have trained myself to write them that way, in order to adapt to the current system.

My characters in the future will likely be the same way, which means that in most cases, I will only be using certain setups:
one for dwarf, elf, mul, half-elf and human warriors, rangers, and assassins.
one for burglars and pickpockets of all races.
one for merchants of all non-half-giant races.
one for half-giant merchants.
one for magickers.

Figuring out which orders to apply where is an exercise I will leave to the reader, but it's exceptionally obvious in my mind which stat is the most important overall, and how the remaining three ought to be ordered in specific cases. Will I ignore my powergaming instincts and not order my stats and all? No, probably not.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Everyone likes to think that that's bad. I don't.

I'm not so weak as to succumb to temptation, however. I'll stick with the concept, and I'm sure plenty of other folks will as well, who appreciate the added creation power the new system will allow.

[Jakahri]

I personally enjoy the thrill of rolling random stats and wondering if I'll finally get that buff set.

Stat ordering, in my opinion, just seems to take away from the overall experience of a harsh mud. It's not about the stats, it's about the roleplay. If you want a buff warrior, then roleplay it out and train - you don't have to have insane strength to be destructive.

One of the most powerful warriors I've ever seen in the game (over 100 days played and even stronger than a certain Byn Sarge so many of you seem to remember) reportedly had only average strength, yet he could tank anyone in the game.

Seriously guys: Stats do not matter. Only the experience and roleplay does.

P.S. I suppose if stats will help to better augment your play and perpetuate an improvement in the overall quality of the mud by everyone having the ability to micromanage their characters, then it's a good thing. I doubt, however, that this will be the case.

[Malken]

If you want random stats still, then I'm sure that if you don't choose any stat ordering it'll still be random, no?

Both sides can be happy with it.

Now if you're worried about what other players will do or won't do, instead of worrying about your own character, I think that's an admin job and I'm sure they'll fix it if it causes any problems.

[Cenghiz]

Normally I don't do this, even view this as a waste of GDB space but...

Now if you're worried about what other players will do or won't do, instead of worrying about your own character, I think that's an admin job and I'm sure they'll fix it if it causes any problems.

[Coat of Arms]

Stats are not all-important to me, but it annoys me when I roll a warrior who is at "manageable" with just his armor, weapon and a full waterskin. It annoys me when I make a pick-pocket with the agility of a paralyzed salt worm. It would annoy me to make a magicker with 84 mana. I'd be able to play these characters, and it wouldn't be impossible to get anywhere, but I enjoy my characters more when my concept's main stat is decent. I can't imagine why a person born with poor strength would choose to become a warrior in the first place, for example.

Edit: deleted some stuff that wasn't really on topic.

[Armaddict]

This could already be answered, but I'm just curious:

Rerolls will still be in effect, and affected by the stat ordering, yes?

[Morgenes]

yes

[X-D]

I will be happy as long as I am not required to order my stats.

[Anonymous]

I personally enjoy the thrill of rolling random stats and wondering if I'll finally get that buff set.

Stat ordering, in my opinion, just seems to take away from the overall experience of a harsh mud. It's not about the stats, it's about the roleplay. If you want a buff warrior, then roleplay it out and train - you don't have to have insane strength to be destructive.

One of the most powerful warriors I've ever seen in the game (over 100 days played and even stronger than a certain Byn Sarge so many of you seem to remember) reportedly had only average strength, yet he could tank anyone in the game.

Seriously guys: Stats do not matter. Only the experience and roleplay does.

P.S. I suppose if stats will help to better augment your play and perpetuate an improvement in the overall quality of the mud by everyone having the ability to micromanage their characters, then it's a good thing. I doubt, however, that this will be the case.

Remember that the system we are talking about means you can still get all below average rolls, as well
as all AI rolls. It won't change the randomness of the rolls just allow you some freedom with your character.
Plus if I wanted a wiry looking thief then I should be allowed to say
I want his agility to be the focus of his life up to that point. Also the rest of
the stats can be unimportant so I leave them alone and just see what happens.

I will admit I was hesitant to jump on board with this idea, but I consider myself open and
willing to read the ideas posted and facts stated by the staff. Currently my opinion is that this is a great idea
that will not allow twinks some magick hold on the world or ruin rp in any way. If anything, when you see
some uber buff guy then damn it you know he can carry your chest from the bazaar to your apartment.


p.s. maybe a person's preferences could be saved with the character so that "if"
some person is just being unrealistic (i.e. making a scrawny lithe desc and making
str and end the main stats) They could be commented to since
the whole point of stat control in a RPI is to better rp and make it more realistic.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

What's the deal with all the people who dislike, or are unsure about the stat ordering feature? It's as if that mentality is this unshakeable religious faith that the way things _were_ in the old testament of Armageddon is some kind of representation of what is right in the universe of roleplay. How can ANYBODY who puts work and detail into making a character, tailoring their life history, their personality, and their physical traits in more detail than ANY video game ever does, say that having ANOTHER TOOL to tailor your character is something they find no use for, or is something that takes away from the roleplay experience?

I just can't see how making the hulking, muscular gladiator with below average strength benefits the roleplay experience. If I wanted to make a crippled or injured gladiator, I can make strength a lower priority with the stat ordering system to go with his background and desc. If I wanted to make an unintelligent brute gladiator who is all muscle and no brains, I can put strength as high priority with the stat ordering system. For someone to tell me that these two examples of the stat ordering system being used are twinkish or affect my RP experience in some negative way, I'm be left confused as to what the argument is. What is the argument for how those two examples are either a) twinkish in char design or b) negatively affecting someone's roleplay experience?

The reason we're here playing Armageddon is because of the code. If we wanted an RP experience without code, we'd be in a MUSH writing up our dramatic beginnings and ends, without the fear of being magically summoned and paralyzed on some character's whim, with no opportunity to roleplay or participate in the scene. Code is what dictates a lot of what is possible or impossible for a character to accomplish in this game. I know that sentence is blasphemy to some, but anyone who wants to argue otherwise is denying the fact that Armageddon is still a lot of dice rolls with HnS fundamentals beneath the story pages. Allowing players to tailor every coded aspect of their char in some way, from race, to class, to age, to height and weight, all of which have a coded impact in the game, seems to suggest that players have been given the freedom to decide how their character fits in the code. So where was stat ordering? Someone's first instinct might be that.. wow, if Armageddon didn't have stat ordering for over thirteen years, it must be because stat ordering is BAD. Over a decade of no stat ordering must mean that a higher power has recognized the badness of stat ordering. How can you cheer and praise a missing feature for that long, and then have someone like Morgenes drop down from the sky and say, "stat ordering will only make things better"? Pretty jarring, huh? Well, those ancient years apparently are over. Some of you were worshipping something that limited character tailoring, and didn't even know why you were worshipping it, and I expect the whole "old habits die hard" saying applies to a lot of the uncertainty that exists around the proposal of stat ordering.

We'll be okay, I think. When the first characters step out of their pods, it might be a little scary at first. Muscular men that are codedly muscular, nimble elves that are codedly nimble.. it'll take a bit of getting used to the idea, but as a community I'm sure we'll get through the initial confusion, and eventually everything will seem as normal as it was before.

[desert_spider_eater]

An endearing post that was codedly endearing.  I agree.

- Marduk

[Marauder Moe]

What's the deal with all the people who dislike, or are unsure about the stat ordering feature? It's as if that mentality is this unshakeable religious faith that the way things _were_ in the old testament of Armageddon is some kind of representation of what is right in the universe of roleplay.

Whats the deal with all the people who assume that disagreeing with a proposed change is always motivated by some irrational attachment to the status quo?  For every change that people have problems with there are several more that are welcomed wholeheartedly.  Mind your perceptions, please.

My main argument against stat ordering is that it's not neccesarily realistic.  I don't believe that everyone should have natural affinity (stats) for their chosen profession (guild).  I think people who have great stats that support their guild should be somewhat rare.  I've elaborated on this further in the past.

[Hymwen]

My main argument against stat ordering is that it's not neccesarily realistic. I don't believe that everyone should have natural affinity (stats) for their chosen profession (guild). I think people who have great stats that support their guild should be somewhat rare. I've elaborated on this further in the past.

I tend to see it the other way around. Your character is not born with a guild, but they're born with at least the foundation for their stats. Someone born with the genes for poor strength and very good wisdom is simply more likely to become an aide, jeweller, clerk etc., whereas someone who is massively muscled and has the intellect of a kank is destined to be Byn material or street thug. Those were examples, but that's my opinion.

[spawnloser]

Not only do people tend towards the profession that suits them, so that explains why their stats 'fit' their profession, but some are suited to their profession in different ways.  A smart thief rather than an agile one.  I know I've played that character before.  How about the smart and agile knife-fighting warrior?  Yeah, done that too.

Just because you're scared that everyone will be picking stats in the same way again and again doesn't mean that it will happen.  We can also rest assured that many of us won't, thinking about the character rather than the numbers, just what fits better.

[Jakahri]

Not only do people tend towards the profession that suits them, so that explains why their stats 'fit' their profession, but some are suited to their profession in different ways.

The code, to my knowledge, already reflects this upon creation of the character. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems that the warriors I usually pick and age/height/weight factors in to their strength. And with assassins, I seem to notice a trend of my pc's having low strength and high agility. Again, perhaps I am wrong, though I do strongly believe the code reflects this. Because of this reason, I really don't see the need to order stats.

Just because you're scared that everyone will be picking stats in the same way again and again doesn't mean that it will happen.

*snicker* And you honestly believe that this won't happen? I doubt that bub.

I'm out of this discussion. As long as I'm given the choice on whether to order stats or not, everything is gravy. That's all.