Opinions on clans?

[Jherlen]

Reading the GDB, I've noticed a lot of people expressing a negative opinion about clans/organisations in the game. I get curious about this, because most of the fun and engaging roleplay I've been involved in has either been because of a clan, or with PCs in my character's clan or met through that clan. Speaking in general terms, I think a lot of the more notable events and accomplishments in the game have come because of clans or been tied to clans in some way.

I certainly see the fun and appeal in playing independent characters too, but I wonder what it is about clans that makes some people seem to actively dislike and avoid them. I also wonder what could be done to change this, or if any changes need to be made at all.

Possible topics of discussion could include clan schedules, restrictions, and rules; frequency of RPTs and clan plots; PC leadership issues, etc.

I really do NOT want this to derail into why House X is better than House Y, or how we should close certain types of clans and replace them with other clans. I'm hoping we can limit discussion to what could be done to the clans that exist in the game right now to make them appeal to a broader section of the playerbase.

The poll just exists to see if my perception was even right.

[Maybe42or54]

I dislike clans because that means my Pcs live forever and ever and ever and ever. When this happens, it starts to feel more like life and a job.

I like Dangerous. Clans don't provide Dangerous to me.

[Agent_137]

when clans have an active pbase, they are unbeatable. When they have a low pbase, they can really suck. When clans have a low Leadership to Underling ratio, or an inactive leadership, they can really suck. Conversely, when there is active leadership (either through a single person glued to the keyboard or a few people sharing responsibilities) it's great.

I view independence as more middle of the road. Rarely sucky, rarely fantastic, and most often shorter-lived.

For the record, I picked the first option in the poll.

I don't think anything is wrong with the type of clans, or the way they're setup ICly. I think some slimming down of the more inactive clans would be healthy, though the which and the how of that are brutal questions. I also think a quick but real fix would be for all clan immortals to realize there is a minimium leader:underling ratio. there should be no busy clans with only one sergeant. I've seen this problem twice in my career, in two out of three clans I've played. Once as a lone sergeant in the Byn, and again as being under a lone sergeant in Kurac. It's horrible on the leadership's player, and he spends all his time putting out fires and he doesn't ever have time to interact with his troops, plan regular events, recruit properly, or do much of anything except what has to be done right at that moment. It's a quick route to leadership burnout, and a quick route to underling boredom with drilling all the time.

This can be fixed NOW. Please do so. Promote sergeants regardless of their IC worth, if you have to. Even a bad sergeant can be fun!

*disclaimer: I've never had a non-military type clanned character, so I have no experience in the non-gritty-combat clan structure.

[Desertman]

I tend to stay away from clans unless there is a good chance due to lack of players that I will be promoted to a leadership position very quickly.

There is only one problem I have with clans and that is alot of times the leaders arent OOC'ly responsible. Alot of people in leadership roles attain thier status simply because they stay alive a long time. And often this is because they arent very active so they dont have that many chances to die. When Sergeant Bob dies and they need someone else to take over the reins, they look and say..."Oh, Trooper NeverOnline has been here the longest, we will promote him"...This isnt the case all of the time, but I have seen it happen -ALOT-. Then you end up with a Sergeant, who is never online, this is a big problem because the active leader PC's determine in a very large way for most clans how much fun the rest of the clan members have. If you have a Sergeant who is never online, you have alot of clan members who spend alot of time bored out of thier fucking skulls.

The solution, take some OOC responsibility for the fact that being in a leadership role is going to affect those people under you. If you cant play that much these days due to RL issues, dont punish your would be underlings indirectly for it, pass up that promotion for the good of the clan. Dont take promotions if you know you arent going to be able to give those people who will be depending on you %100. If you take a promotion just because you think it would be cool to be a "Sergeant", and not because you want to increase the fun for the people under you, you arent taking this position for the right reasons in my opinion. You have an OOC responsibility to increase the enjoyment of the game for those people under you, if you cant handle that, step aside because someone under you will. Even if its not your fault that you are having to work double shifts at the office for the next three months and really want that promotion to Sergeant, think about those people who will be playing under you and step aside for someone who will truly benefit the clan, dont be selfish, dont take promotions that you dont have the OOC time to fulfill to the positions maximum potential.

Thats just my view on it, anyone in a leadership role who has taken the promotion and knows they wont be able to supply thier underlings with the type of gaming experience they deserve, which the leader has now become responsible for supplying them with if they think so or not, should be drug out behind the chemical shed and shot.


In summary: Dont be a fucking selfish dick and take a promotion or continue playing a leadership role if you wont or no longer have the time OOC to increase the enjoyment of the people who are going to be playing under you. Its your responsibility as a leader in a clan to make the game fun for those people under you, if you cant handle it, get the fuck out or dont step up, you arent doing anything but ruining alot of potential fun for alot of people who might otherwise have some truly enjoyable experiences.

Flaming Disclaimer: I know this isnt the situation with -ALL- leadership roles, some leadership roles you can handle without ever being online because noone would even miss you, Senior Agents, House Family Members, these are two I can think of. I have seen these two roles played by people who were NEVER around, and noone seemed to miss them at all. The above post is simply in relation to those leadership roles where the above post applies, which there are many of.

[jhunter]

This is one of my biggest dislikes of the city-based clans. Like Desertman said, there have been several times that I ran into a leader (what turns out to be the once in a blue moon that they're logged in) and they hire my pc. Then, I never see them again and it's nothing but the same crap day-in and day-out until I either make a change ICly that usually results in the death of my pc, or I have the pc stored. I've usually found out after joining that the leader who hired me almost never plays.

[Bebop]

One thing I like about clans is the imm interaction of the clan IMMs.  From my experience clan imms take good care of the clannies and are mindful of updates and the PC's needs and goals.  However, with indy characters most of the time I have not gotten any responses on my character updates with them.  (Though honestly I don't send them very much when I'm playing an indy character.)

That is another thing with clanned characters they -do- tend to live longer because there isn't enough danger.  But I think partially that is because you tend to travel in groups with clans, which -is- a little more realistic.  Another thing I love about clans is the interaction when there are enough active devoted players.  It can be alot of fun.  (WHEN there are regular players.) But it is also fun when there is a little danger involved and regulartly scheduled RPTs that is important.  You leaders are important.

Which brings me to agree with DesertMan.  I have encountered this a few times, partially even now.  Leadership roles are very important, they decide pay and RP opportunities for their underlings.  It is very, very frustrating to be under someone that was promoted because they just outlived everyone else, even if they are highly unexperienced.  I'm not even talking about experienced in the game, but just unexperienced, they do foolish things or their characters are very weak, petty, unable to lead.  I still think you can even have a character that is not good at combat or can be beaten by their underlings that is a good leader, but still some PCs I see getting leadership roles or respect merely get it for the OOC knowledge that they have managed to keep their PC around long enough.  I think people should remember that just because you may know a PC is new, that doesn't mean the PC was born yesterday.  They have had experiences, hardships and knowledge leading up to the point of their creation.

Basically I think with leaders there needs to be an OOC and IC amount of balance to make the clan enjoyable.  And be realistic, if you are not enjoying the role store.  Don't continue to play out of some obligation or whatever, let someone else take over that is going to enjoy that role.  Leadership positions are tough, but don't spoil the fun for those under you by not participating.  Likewise, leaders of the leaders, it is nice to take risks and give some people a chance sometimes, but please don't promote people that are obviously incompetent IC or have other OOC limitiations just for the fact "their PC has been around a long time." That is so twinkish to me and I can think of a few PCs off of the top of my head that this applies to in my mind, and have ruined some fun things for me.  I personally don't think it's interesting RP to have a Sergeant that would never in a million years be promoted, get promoted because they've "been around."  It's just unrealistic and I've seen this happen so many times and it really makes the clan for the time they are alive.  :?

I can also think of some great leaders, but I think keeping these things in mind would help clans run more smoothly.

Also keep your IMMs updated so they are aware of certain situations.  Be realistic don't tell them so and so has not been around for a month because you are flustered when you saw them on two weeks ago.  Be accurate pay attention and get the facts.  If you are not getting paid or there are OOC problems effecting things IC I think you should let the clan IMMs know.  Even if you are not a leader, and you're not sure if it's directly effecting you let the clan imms know, might help someone else out.

But I do enjoy playing indies because I don't rely on the clan to have fun.  If I am bored I can go hunt, if I want PC interaction I can go to a bar.  Etc, etc.  I decide my own rules, which seems to open up more potential to my character.  I kind of feel like some people think that if you aren't playing clanned you aren't in it for the RP.  That simply isn't true, not for everyone.  Sometimes it just gets boring when you are playing someone in a clan and the IMMs say make sure you are RPing sparring even if no one is around because that's what hardcore players do.  No offense, but that is terribly boring when you do it ever IG game day and you only have time from dusk-before dawn to have fun with other players.  Sometimes based on your playing time you end up solo RPing MORE in a clan.  I think the rule should go like this:  if you don't see anyone in your Unit, do what you can and then go about your business.   It's way to hardcore to expect people to solo RP for hours on end when they really want to just play and have fun.  And that's what the game is about fun.  So while I think a few solo RPing for the day can be good, I don't think you should be  forced to spend so much time on it.  Like a full IG day, many days in a row.  And then being forced to emote alone really can be mind numbing, so sometimes when this happens I try to quit the clan which sucks because sometimes that makes you end up being killed.  Honestly, people love a good killin'

I have found myself drawing towards clans these days for different reasons.  I feel like they give me a little more focus, a little bit more of a goal.  So that's nice.

[jmordetsky]

I will play in 3 of the city based clans.  Two of them I will play if I am recruited, one I will play in if a particular character belongs there but the last one gets pretty lonely if no one is around.

D-elves I will always play as one of the coded tribes.

[Cale_Knight]

I love clans, but the most important aspect of the game for me is lots of player interaction.

[Cuusardo]

I have had good and bad experiences in clans, but in general I like clans because they usually lead to a lot of fun roleplay.

One of my favorite thing about clans is the occasional interaction with IMM run NPCs, the big muckety mucks in the clans.  Whether pissed off at my PC, or happy with my PC, it always leads to something interesting.

[Delirium]

No danger in clans...?  That's crazy talk!

I used to avoid clans, but now I love them.  And my clanned characters ran into more dangerous, spooky, and downright crazy shit than all of my independant characters put together - and my independants, especially a certain mage, saw quite a lot.

I think people just like being able to do their own thing, wherever, whenever, and when you join a clan, you sacrifice a little of that.  What you get in return, however, is a support network and vast potential to do big things and make a real impact on the gameworld, as well as immediate opportunities for interaction and definite goals.

So, you choose - the easy way to get your adrenaline fix and die young: independant.

The (usually) slower way to get involved in Big Stuff (tm) and probably still die young, but have a far bigger chance at accomplishing things: clanned.

There are always exceptions, my longest lived spent quite a while indie before they went clanned.  I actually recommend that route to those who don't app directly into a clan - go independant for a while to get a feel on your character and some played-out history, then let them naturally fall in with whoever has consistantly been active and around, and makes most IC sense for your character.  Never just hire on with a clan leader that you've only spoken with once.


- Delirium's garbled before-coffee thoughts

[LoD]

I have normally found that the success of a clan, the fun its participants are having, and the level of involvement in the rest of the world rests squarely on the shoulders of the PC leader.

If you notice that a clan is booming, constantly in the spotlight, and recruiting by the wagonfulls, chances are they are a direct result of the energy and direction being provided by the PC leader, and the Imm staff helping to support them.  This is likely why Desertman believes it is a leader's responsibility to provide fun and entertainment for the rest of the clan.  There is a relationship, but I don't agree that it is every anyone's responsibility to create fun for other people.

:arrow: Good leaders create fun for themselves and their underlings.
:arrow: Great leaders enjoy it.

It takes a specific kind of person to really grab a clan by the horns and turn it into a rampaging beast of good times and productivity.  They must be patient, diligent, problem solving, cunning, forgiving, understanding, harsh, disciplined, focused, organized, demanding, and communicative all at the same time.  It's a lot of hats to wear, and for many it feels very much like a RL job and they want nothing to do with it.

With great power comes great responsibility.  This addage applies not only to RL power and situations, but also those held within the game.  There is a relationship between successful leadership and personal sacrifice, and for many, the rewards do not outweigh the disadvantages.  For those few that can continue to glean some amount of enjoyment and pride from the job they fill as a PC leader, then it's a win-win-win situation for follower, leader and Imm.

-LoD

[Halaster]

If you notice that a clan is booming, constantly in the spotlight, and recruiting by the wagonfulls, chances are they are a direct result of the energy and direction being provided by the PC leader, and the Imm staff helping to support them.  

I definitely agree with LoD here.  Twice now I've been the staff in charge of a clan while he was the PC leader, and both times it worked very well - as long as we were both active and doing things.

[MorganChaos]

Well...

Last time I tried to join a clan, the character eventually died because he couldn't find who to hire him.

Last time I was in a clan, the character was killed because of how he was perceived (which was almost completely wrong).

Last successful character I had was indy.

First time I was in a clan after a long break, I was fired for something I really shouldn't have been fired for. I was lucky to have a mate who'd died so I could sell off their shit and live off that.

Soo...

My experience with clans has been nosogood. I haven't given up yet...but I probably will if something doesn't go right soon.

[Intrepid]

I very rarely make throwaway pcs, so when I make a pc and affix him/her to a clan,
I'm rather glad to have that longevity.

That said, I've been murdered unfairly in a clan by my own clanmates.  It was brutal
and I loved it, even if the ic circumstances were questionable.

[Aldiel]

I basically always play in clans.  Once and a while, I'll make an indi, but even they seem to fall into a clan at some point.

[Anonymous]

I like clans a lot.  Restrictive clan rules are another thing altogether.

[Lizzie]

I'm still on my first character, she's in a clan. The only frustration I have with being in a clan so far is that the PC leader is active, somewhere else. And at the moment I'm the only active PC in the location. I don't blame anyone, it's just the circumstances. I'm optimistic things will pick up just fine soon enough. In the meantime I have a few things to keep me busy and people to RP with outside the clan so it's not too bad. The clan IMM is very nice, and helpful. I'm sorry I can't contribute more yet to this discussion but reading it gives me lots of things to think about for the next few characters.

[Agent_137]

Seems a lot of people don't enjoy clans when they don't have an active PC leader. This makes perfect sense. So does this adage: Don't join a clan unless you often see their leader (or wish to become a leader.)

[mansa]

I try and avoid joining a clan unless my character's friends are apart of that clan.  Then it's really fun because we are all a happ family.

[grog]

Sometimes my character insists on joining a clan, when I really don't want to.

[SpyGuy]

I used to play a lot of independent characters, I'm beginning to get bored with them.  Indys tend to learn a lot more about the code and surface of the game world.  Clanned characters tend to get much more involved in RPTs and get deeper into the game world.  I've done the surface learning, now I want to get really deep into specific aspects.

Plus constant interaction is awesome.

[Aldiel]

I used to play a lot of independent characters, I'm beginning to get bored with them.  Indys tend to learn a lot more about the code and surface of the game world.  Clanned characters tend to get much more involved in RPTs and get deeper into the game world.  I've done the surface learning, now I want to get really deep into specific aspects.

Plus constant interaction is awesome.

This is so true, IMO

[Anonymous]

In my eyes, clans have benefits and detriments, just as playing alone does.

On one hand, clans have more rules than playing by yourself.  When you play by yourself, the only rule is often "survive".  When playing in a clan, you have more political considerations, not to mention IC "schedules" that may define your role playing opportunities more specifically than you like.

On the other hand, clans have more opportunity to affect larger events than solo characters do in many situations, unless the solo character in question has mastered the game in a significant way.

Non-house clans (for example tribal clans) tend to offer a more unique playing experience than you might find alone.  But, their pitfall is that each player has a different interpretation of what being part of that clan should mean.  Inconsistency in playing style or in character actions can cause a lot of IC strife and a bit of OOC angst in some cases.

The Imm thing is something I don't entirely agree with, though.  I have had plenty of imm interaction when I played interesting solo characters, and I've been in clans where the imms were never to be seen or heard from.  It varies.  I think this is more a statement of the imm than something which would validate or invalidate playing in a clan.

[Forty Winks]

I'm a fan of tribal families, for the reason -because- of the strife caused by character's IG due to their interpretations and personalities. In one of the formal merchant or noble Houses, order is so expected you don't really find strife amongst your own clan members. Of course, there are also consequences from tribal strife, but it's more easier to be brought out. In terms of IG strife caused due to OOC misinterpretation of the docs...that's a different matter.

Edited to add: This is from the perspective of more of the general roles in the Houses. I'm quite sure there's plenty of strife amongst those higher up.  :wink:

[InsertCleverNameHere]

In my time playing Arm, I can say I've had about 5 characters, (6 if you include the current, but I'm only including past right now), which have felt to me to be "real" characters. They lived long enough to have interaction and depth that made them real, not a 3 day "Oops, who knew guards instakilled!" kind of thing.

Of these 5, 4 were clanned (One was even clanned twice, joined, rebelled/deserted, and hooked up in a diff clan!). The indie lived the longest of them all. 3 of my clannies died to other PC, 1 to a big bad ugly bahamet.

And of my clanned characters, I found I enjoyed the one who was involved in a more structured organization. Admittedly, having a day to day schedule could be a bit tedious. I thought so, and likewise did my character, and would skip out on the schedule when it suited and do whatever the mood of the day was. There were IC concequences, which was actually pretty fun. Where as in a non-structured organization, where you're more often than not left to fend for yourself, it's almost like being indie, because there's no set time when you -know- you'll be able to meet with your other clan members, who are also milling about doing their own thing, their own tasks.

I admit it. I am a bad solo RPer. I have trouble finding the fun in nothing, and turning it into something, unless I have someone else, or some purpose, to play off of. So having a set "something" to do, was really great. It also gave my character more clearly defined goals than with my non-structured clanned PC's.

And I echo everyone else who's said that most of what makes a good clan, is good leadership. For the PC leaders, you want to see your leaders, know they're alive, interact and do just what the title implies.. Lead you! And for the IMM clan leaders, again. You want to know they're actually involved, even if it's just that they're monitoring the life of the clan and can be bothered to step in if need be. Not the sort who set up their own little "simworld" game full of PC, walk away for a month, then come back to see if everybody is dead yet!  :wink: