Cavilish

[Marauder Moe]

The current implementation of who speaks Cavilish doesn't make sense to me.  As per the docs:

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the "Merchant's Tongue," since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

(emphasis mine)

And yet... every crafter/trader Amos, Malik, and Joram speaks it fluently from the day they learned to tan a hide, not to mention all the elves and dwarves who are also good at crafting things.  On top of that, it's the most precise guild-sniffing tool available.  I've seen a lot of merchant house interviews where the first question is "Do you speak Cavilish?"

I think, either one of two things needs to happen:

1) Cavilish is removed from the guild_merchant skill list and given only to Merchant House family members.

OR

2) Note in the docs that Cavilish has become more common among independant merchants AND add a subguild "trader" with value, barter, and Cavilish.

[Delirium]

I completely agree.

Either implimentation would be fine by me, but I would like to see one of them.

[Cale_Knight]

Yeah, it's especially silly since at least two of the three merchant houses treat Cavilish as a kind of secret code language, and don't like their employees teaching it to non-house members.

[Larrath]

Agreed.  Cavilish is entirely too common and people are far too willing to flaunt knowing it in public.  I see Cavilish as Tatlum to a lesser degree, and people who aren't meant to know it would be making themselves a target to be killed by a Merchant House if they showed it off.

It would be nice to see the language removed from future Merchants, or to have to specifically request the language while applying for the character and providing a reason why they would know it.

I can't really see it happening, sadly.

[Vanth]

This is not an official staff stance, but just my personal opinion:

There is a difference between exclusively and almost exclusively.  The vast majority of cavilish speakers are either born into a merchant house or end up working for one.  Yes, merchant houses are a bit snobby and prefer to hire cavilish speakers, because that is the tongue they are most comfortable with.  Yes, this ends up feeling like guild-sniffing.

I would be fine with seeing some changes to the way things are done now, such as lowering the starting cavilish fluency of non-merchant-family merchants, or adding it to a subguild. But on the other hand, it doesn't feel particularly 'broken' to me as it is.

[Cale_Knight]

peakers are either born into a merchant house or end up working for one.  Yes, merchant houses are a bit snobby and prefer to hire cavilish speakers, because that is the tongue they are most comfortable with.

That's really not how it's RPed, though. Go look at the Kuraci docs where they relate to Cavilish.

[flurry]

I think, either one of two things needs to happen:

1) Cavilish is removed from the guild_merchant skill list and given only to Merchant House family members.

I would be really disappointed to see this happen.  From my perspective, cavilish is one of the more important, and realistic, perks of guild_merchant.

I detest guild sniffing too, but that's not a good reason to remove a skill.  Especially in this case, when the sniffing can only succeed with the consent of the sniffee.  You can keep knowledge of cavilish absolutely secret if you choose to, easily.

Cavilish is the language of commerce, and I don't think it's intended to be exclusive to the Great Merchant Houses.  I interpret that quote more broadly to include minor merchant families too.

OR

2) Note in the docs that Cavilish has become more common among independant merchants AND add a subguild "trader" with value, barter, and Cavilish.

Yes to the first part, and an emphatic no to the second part, IMHO.  It should be reserved for genuine merchants, not for people who dabble in trade.

[Marauder Moe]

I personally would prefer the second option.  With the Way, secret languages don't really add that much to the game.

It should be reserved for genuine merchants, not for people who dabble in trade.

Cavilish is not a trade language.  It's the language of nomadic descendants who admittedly have a cultural affinity for mercantile arts.  Most speakers would have learned it from their families at an early age, or at the very least some of them would.  Thus, it should be linked with background (subguilds) as well as profession.

[Pantoufle]

Giving Cavilish to subguilds would only make the guild, itself, worthless.  "Guild sniffing" as you call it is the fault of the sniffer in question and not he who possesses Cavilish, Bendune, or any other guild/subguild related skill.  For that matter a mercenary recruiter might ask a potential worker if he can "bash people to the ground".  Any affirmative answer implies the person is guild_warrior.  Additionally, I could ask someone in an interview if he knows how to "camp" out in the wilderness and I'll know with 100% accuracy what his guild is (unless he's lying).

It may make little sense for a dwarf or elf who has chosen guild_merchant to start with Cavilish, so it's really up to these players to add in their background how they learned an otherwise human tongue.

[flurry]

Cavilish is not a trade language.  It's the language of nomadic descendants who admittedly have a cultural affinity for mercantile arts.  Most speakers would have learned it from their families at an early age, or at the very least some of them would.  Thus, it should be linked with background (subguilds) as well as profession.

Hmm -- maybe "the language of commerce" is too strong, but it was developed among traders.   It's not used only for trade, nor is it the exclusive trade tongue, but it is most definitely used for trade, to my understanding.  Especially significant trade.

I don't like the idea of giving it to a subguild, because I really think it belongs to PCs that are really heavily mercantile in nature.   If it's a really significant part of your background, but you want to be a warrior, I'd rather see that as a special ap.

[Marauder Moe]

According to the documentation, it belongs to people who's families descended from the Dune Traders.  It's very specific about it.

[Anonymous]

I see it as a trade language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  Why do people use it?  The language itself is a little archaicI see it as a "trader culture" language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  I tend to justify my merchants knowing the language because they come from a merchant family that worked in the bazaar.  Part of working in the bazaar involves hearing and being taught Cavilish.  If your folks ran a stand in the Allanaki bazaar and you grew up helping them run it, I think that is justification enough to say that you know Cavilish.

As for the reasons to know the language:

First, it is a semi-secret language.  If you can rattle on in Cavilish, you can have a conversation that relatively secret out in the open.  Sure, others around you might know what you are saying, but chances are your average passerby won't have any clue what you are babbling about.  This is very useful in a market.  If you need to haggle with another merchant, scold an employee, or simply deny your customers the information of what you are asking your boss about, you have a way to do it.  Cavilish is a way to hide the inner workers of a market from the users of a market.  Hiding information about the workings of your business from your customer is ALWAYS a good policy.

Imagine the utility of having a semi-secret language when selling to others.  Imagine you are growing up as a child helping your parents work a booth in the bazaar.  If a customer comes asking about the price of a certain good you have, you can look over to mom and ask her in Cavilish what price they want to sell at, and inform her that the item has a chip in it that the customer has not yet seen the chip.  Mom can then respond that you can sell it for 15 'sid, even though it is only worth 10 'sid with the dent in it.  You can then look up at the customer, smile, and tell him that you talked your mom down from 20 'sid to 17 'sid.

If a supplier for your little stand in the bazaar comes over restock you and you have customers standing there, you don't need to air out the prices you are paying publicly.  By conversing in Cavilish, you can haggle with your supplier without the customers hearing the price you are paying.  By denying them this information, they can not use it to force you down to lower prices.

Second, Cavilish is a status symbol.  If you know Cavilish, it means that someone either taught it to you, or you spent enough time in a market to pick it up on your own.  Either way, it shows a certain level of dedication to the mercantile arts.

[FightClub]

I see it as a trade language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  Why do people use it?  The language itself is a little archaicI see it as a "trader culture" language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  I tend to justify my merchants knowing the language because they come from a merchant family that worked in the bazaar.  Part of working in the bazaar involves hearing and being taught Cavilish.  If your folks ran a stand in the Allanaki bazaar and you grew up helping them run it, I think that is justification enough to say that you know Cavilish.

As for the reasons to know the language:

First, it is a semi-secret language.  If you can rattle on in Cavilish, you can have a conversation that relatively secret out in the open.  Sure, others around you might know what you are saying, but chances are your average passerby won't have any clue what you are babbling about.  This is very useful in a market.  If you need to haggle with another merchant, scold an employee, or simply deny your customers the information of what you are asking your boss about, you have a way to do it.  Cavilish is a way to hide the inner workers of a market from the users of a market.  Hiding information about the workings of your business from your customer is ALWAYS a good policy.

Imagine the utility of having a semi-secret language when selling to others.  Imagine you are growing up as a child helping your parents work a booth in the bazaar.  If a customer comes asking about the price of a certain good you have, you can look over to mom and ask her in Cavilish what price they want to sell at, and inform her that the item has a chip in it that the customer has not yet seen the chip.  Mom can then respond that you can sell it for 15 'sid, even though it is only worth 10 'sid with the dent in it.  You can then look up at the customer, smile, and tell him that you talked your mom down from 20 'sid to 17 'sid.

If a supplier for your little stand in the bazaar comes over restock you and you have customers standing there, you don't need to air out the prices you are paying publicly.  By conversing in Cavilish, you can haggle with your supplier without the customers hearing the price you are paying.  By denying them this information, they can not use it to force you down to lower prices.

Second, Cavilish is a status symbol.  If you know Cavilish, it means that someone either taught it to you, or you spent enough time in a market to pick it up on your own.  Either way, it shows a certain level of dedication to the mercantile arts.

Or you could use the way.

[John]

There is a difference between exclusively and almost exclusively.

But at the moment it's downright common. Perhaps move it to become a "subguild only" language (such as bendune).

The vast majority of cavilish speakers are either born into a merchant house or end up working for one.

But at the moment this simply isn't the case. If I want to make someone who has the possibility to become a master <item> crafter, I have to choose the Merchant guild. Which means unless I get Imm assistance, I'm going to be able to speak Cavilish.

But on the other hand, it doesn't feel particularly 'broken' to me as it is.

I personally disagree and I always ask to have Cavilish removed from my chars (if they get it). It would be like if all Rangers got Bendune (which actually makes more sense then Cavilish with Merchant), the language would become pretty common.

Cavilish is the language of commerce, and I don't think it's intended to be exclusive to the Great Merchant Houses.  I interpret that quote more broadly to include minor merchant families too.

I disagree with that, and if the staff agree with you, the docs definitely need to be changed.

Giving Cavilish to subguilds would only make the guild, itself, worthless.

Wha? Having a language that every crafter and noble's aide speaks is the only worthwhile thing about the Merchant guild? Have you ever played an extremely long-lived and skilled merchant?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I agree that Calvish should become an exclusive laungage to Merchant House reps, like Tatlum is for Templars. Unlike Tatlum, however, it would not be illegal to learn or speak Calvish, just unusual.

Another option might be to branch Calvish off of some other langauge skill, and only for Merchants.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, the complaint that giving a subguild cavilish would make merchant useless, I think, Is crap. Merchants are the one thing that can craft atleast half the craftable items. There is no other guild/subguild that can do that.

[LoD]

To help determine the status of Cavilish, it would seem that we should review the entire documentation rather than snippets.

Part of the so-called 'nomadic' group of languages, this tongue was evidently descended directly from Bendune. It shares most of the same characteristics, such as vowel usage, but possesses a sentence-structuring approach more similar to that of Sirihish or Tatlum.

As will be described later, the language obviously began as spoken Bendune and later changed to adopt the structure of city influences as the nomadic tribes settled into either city-state for the purpose of trade.

The legendary dune traders of ages past, once traveling merchants of nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the vicinity of one thousand years after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech.

And so the legendary dune traders come to rest in what are now Allanak and Tuluk.  They were forced to deal with their customers in their own language to facilitate trade, yet they still spoke their native language at home.  I imagine this is common for quite a few families that have parents who were not born in the United States (i.e. I had a Taiwanese friend growing up that only spoke Taiwanese in the home).

With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made more and more use of Sirihish language structures. As time wore on, their native Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own language.

Influenced by the surrounding culture and language of the cities, these now sedintary traders begin to assimilate Sirihish into their own tongue and create a completely new dialect.  This new dialect eventually changed enough to be considered its own tongue, spoken by a people descended from nomadic traders.  And that is where the language stayed.  It is human nature to prefer your own people, move in your own circles, associate with your own kind.  While this isn't Earth, I imagine it was still the practice for descendants of these dune traders to marry/couple within their own circles.  The language slowly became associated with Merchants because while it is truly a trait of the culture (not the profession), large families would likely follow a particular business/trade, passing their knowledge from generation to generation.  And their business was merchanting.

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the Merchants' Tongue, since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

From this passage I make the link (and perhaps assumption) that Cavilish is now spoken almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses because those families are descendants of the legendary dune traders.  Their use of the language is cultural rather than professional.  Their family business just happens to be merchanting, and so it has become associated with trade.  If they were a fighting family, then perhaps Cavilish would have become the "Warrior's Tongue".

While one can argue that Cavilish should be allowd as a sub guild selection, I wouldn't like to see it.  I'd rather see someone special app if they believe their non-merchant would have had reasonable access to this language.  Those who select the merchant class have chosen (or been forced to choose) a trading profession that likely includes being taught this language as a result of the surrounding culture.

And that is why I prefer the merchant class to retain the language skill, because it reflects not only a necessary evil of surviving in mercantile politics, but also a strong part of their culture.  These descendants of dune traders, now operating massive monopolies, would be selective with whom they do business.  Speaking THEIR language would be in the interest of any "real" merchant who has been trained in something more than learning a few paltry trade skills to supplement their true profession.

One should think of Cavilish as the Merchant's Tongue not because it is the province of merchants, but because of the cultural impact the descendant's of the dune traders have had on the profession.  And in a time when there are no "Leatherworking for Dummies" books or online documentation, where do you think people learn their crafts?  These trading and crafting families have likely gathered and protected the secrets of their trade for years.  Trade professions require very specific knowledge.  Even now there are still people that apprentice to craftsman for years in order to quickly master what took generations of people to learn, hone and perfect.

Those people who select the merchant class should consider just where their capacity for crafting such a wide variety of items has come from, and from whom they learned.  Chances are the people who taught them were likely directly or closely related to these descendants with whom Cavilish has remained the 'tool of the tongue' for their family business.

-LoD

[Tamarin]

What I find funny is that it's supposed to be a secretive, elusive language among the merchant families, but as soon as two of them get together, they always have a long gab out in a public area where everyone can hear them.  Enough so that people are going to start picking it up.

Perhaps thou shalst...uh...protects...uh...thine tongue sooth...uh...

:oops:

[LoD]

What I find funny is that it's supposed to be a secretive, elusive language among the merchant families, but as soon as two of them get together, they always have a long gab out in a public area where everyone can hear them.  Enough so that people are going to start picking it up.

Perhaps thou shalst...uh...protects...uh...thine tongue sooth...uh...

:oops:

Well, I don't see the language so much secretive as cultural.

I believe they choose not to speak it widely because it's reserved for the company of fellow merchants rather than secret partners.  And it wouldn't just be the language, it would be a combination of things.  

For example, let's say that horticulturists spoke Horta.  Two of them are in a tavern speaking Horta with each other, not because they want to be secret, but because that's the culture between them and it ALSO serves to protect their conversation somewhat from those who don't have any business in their discussion.

Now a 'rinthi has been listening to them for months and can finally piece together some of the words.  Then he starts trying to join the conversation.  It would probably become quickly apparent that this person did not learn Horta as a result of their culture or profession, but as a result of listening to them because they wouldn't have the other knowledge necessary to carry on the conversation.  One question about which plant can be found far to the west, perfers shade, and has a minty smell and they'll see this person is a fraud.

The language is considered secretive to those that are not part of the cutlure, and likely commonplace to the people who are.  Some folks interpret having this language as being granted a "power" or "ability" that should not be shared, so as to make them feel special or unique, but I really don't think that's the case.  The fact that most non-merchants wouldn't be able to understand their business conversations is more likely a beneficial byproduct than an engineered tool.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

It's a language used almost exclusively by members of the merchant houses, right?  Where in that document does it say 'THE GREAT MERCHANT HOUSES' ?  Honestly, there are more merchant families out there that simply don't operate on the scale that the GMH's do.

You want to have your merchants not know cavilish because they're only crafters that don't deal with other people that speak cavilish a lot?  Fine, have it removed from your character.  Everyone else can make the same determination for themselves.

I think it is fine to give merchant guild characters cavilish because not EVERY noble and noble's aide has the that as a guild.  You're exaggerating, John.

[Bebop]

I like the idea of snuffing it from non-family Merchant House completely.  IF a merchant ends up working for a merchant House then the Agent or family member Merchant can choose to teach their employees.   If they are loyal enough they might stay long enough to become fluent in this exclusive language.  And d-elf merchants definitely shouldn't  have it.

[Matrim]

Also, from help_guild_merchant:

Usually descendants of the old Dune Traders, merchants quickly learn the ways of the desert, the most profitable trade routes, and possess a handy charm for making friends of even the most bitter templar.

I don't think the language should be removed from the merchant guild at all, and should definately not be added to a subclass.

[Marauder Moe]

I counter by arguing that the guild_merchant helpfile needs to be revised.  The Dune Traders were human, no?  Then how come non-humans can choose merchant as a guild and get Cavilish?

[Matrim]

I counter by arguing that the guild_merchant helpfile needs to be revised.  The Dune Traders were human, no?  Then how come non-humans can choose merchant as a guild and get Cavilish?

Yes, I think it would be a safe bet to say the Dune Traders were human, but the doc does say "usually decendants".  I don't have any facts to base this on, but I would think that most guild Merchants probably are human, whether virtually or not, and that most common "merchants" are not of the actual merchant guild.  There have also been some pretty good reasons in this thread as to why some non Dune Trader decendants might have access to the language, and while the family members of the Great Merchant Houses probably are direct decendants of the Dune Traders, I think they would probably be a minority of all the decendants.  

Anyways, I don't really care either way, if the imms feel the docs need updating i'm sure they'll do it.

[Intrepid]

I counter by arguing that the guild_merchant helpfile needs to be revised.  The Dune Traders were human, no?  Then how come non-humans can choose merchant as a guild and get Cavilish?

There's nothing saying that all dune traders had to be human unless an imm is willing
to clarify this.  A dune trader is, by definition, a simple merchant who traverses the
wastes and distributes much needed supplies across the desert.  Nothing in that
definition implies race unless we customize the definition to our purposes.  I'm not
saying yea or nay to the idea of limiting Cavilish, I'm just addressing this one point
in the conversation.