Cavilish

[Marauder Moe]

I disagree that the documentation says it's a trade language, and as you said, it's not a trade language as people have been playing it.  It does seem that at least some of the staff interpret it to be one, though.  If they wish to acknowledge that neither the game nor documentation is consistant with that interpretation and they change things, fine.  Though even then I'd question why Zalanthas needs a trade language besides Sirihish.

I don't have to agree with a decision to respect it, though.  I wouldn't go around in character and scold people for conducting trades in Cavilish or anything like that.

Really, it doesn't matter since the game is ending.  It's not worth it now to make a Cavilish subguild like I suggested earlier in this thread.  I don't really care that much, I mostly wanted to steer the Cavilish subject off of my Arm Reborn languages thread.

[spawnloser]

I'd say the documentation is not explicit enough. It suggests that Cavilish is a trade language, but it also definitely doesn't say that Cavilish is not a trade one.

Why does Zalanthas need a trade language?

First, as Tlaloc said in the post flurry linked to, it's a clique thing. Sure, anyone _could_ go trade, but they're not going to get the respect from 'real merchants' if they can't speak in Cavilish. It's like being a biologist that doesn't know the latin names for any species.

Second, it crosses the language barriers that do exist. Elven merchants that don't speak Sirihish can still do trade in Cavilish with people that don't speak Allundean. In the current version of Arm, it's too easy for everyone to learn Sirihish, so everyone knows it and thus it has become, for PCs, the language to do trade with when there are any other language barriers.

[Impska]

Knowing cavilish earns you respect in the "merchant" clique and legitimizes you as a 'real' merchant. People who don't know cavilish aren't taken as seriously by other merchants. Since you don't know cavilish, one assumes you don't have a family history of merchanting and thus probably don't know all the tricks of the trade and are more easily taken advantage of.

Furthermore, cavilish as a language is used by non-sirihish speaking tribes and races to do business across language barriers. Making the effort to pass down the language within a small group of specialists in, say, the Blackwing elf tribe, allows them to conduct trade in a sophisticated manner without forcing them to speak a 'human' or 'city' tongue.

A merchant who knows cavilish not only proves him/herself legitimate to other merchants of his or her own race, but also to those of other races.

If a merchant house refuses to teach or speak spoken cavilish to non-merchants, it's just another way for them to be elitist. They aren't delusional in some way - they understand other people may learn and speak cavilish, they are just better than those people. If merchant house documentation states that speaking cavilish will earn you death, then it's outdated and somewhat ridiculous.

Merchant houses have written Cavilish almost exclusively (even nobles need to provide justification for having it added to their skill list). Very few non-family merchants have learned it. Being a literate merchant outside of a main House (with the exception of being noble) is probably justification for getting the old knife in the back.

So for those who think merchant houses need a super seekrit language: you're in luck. They have one. They can write little notes to eachother. Once upon a time, written Cavilish was basically supposed to be a numerical language, for record keeping, but in latter days staff have encouraged their family members to keep journals and write letters to eachother.  And why not? It's more interesting that way and it offers up a way to pass down some fantasic player-written in-character history.

As for spoken cavilish - it doesn't need to be exclusive. It hasn't been for the past ten years, and now the game is closing - so who cares? People have been sniffing out the merchant class all this time and it somehow hasn't affected the integrity of the roleplay here.

[Coat of Arms]

Didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take on it:

I've never found Cavilish to be a real part of merchanting. An employer in a merchant house might ask you if you speak it when they interview you, but it never seemed to be a deciding factor to me. I certainly never got rejected from a job because I couldn't speak the language. That's probably because the playerbase does not properly reflect how coveted these Kadius/Salarr/Kurac jobs are and they end up taking anyone who wants to join.

I never see merchants use Cavilish as an important part of their job. 90% of the customers don't speak it and they don't have that many fellow merchants to bicker with. I had a merchant character who never used the language a single time because there was never a situation that called for it. Humans speak to eachother in Sirihish, and if there's ever something you don't want everybody at the bar to hear, you use the much more convenient Way.

Then, whenever I do see someone use Cavilish, it's treated as a full-fledged language that developed the same way Sirihish and Allundean and whatnot. If this is a merchant's tongue, invented and used only by merchants and for merchanting purposes, would it even have the vocabulary required for global conversation of all topics? Could you discuss a game of izdari, plot an assassination, write a flowery poem or chit-chat about the weather in a language whose sole purpose is to discuss things related to trade?

[enigma]

That's probably because the playerbase does not properly reflect how coveted these Kadius/Salarr/Kurac jobs are and they end up taking anyone who wants to join.

The first part of this statement is true, the second part is not.

Then, whenever I do see someone use Cavilish, it's treated as a full-fledged language that developed the same way Sirihish and Allundean and whatnot. If this is a merchant's tongue, invented and used only by merchants and for merchanting purposes, would it even have the vocabulary required for global conversation of all topics? Could you discuss a game of izdari, plot an assassination, write a flowery poem or chit-chat about the weather in a language whose sole purpose is to discuss things related to trade?

Cavilish has been around for so long, why wouldn't it have developed past trade vocabulary only?  Every language expands as it gets older.  Just look at the English language.

[LoD]

Didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take on it:

You should read the thread.  Much has been discussed on the subject with particular attention to the origins and shaping of the Cavilish language.  It isn't a garbled half-tongue like mercenary short-hand, it's a blend of Bendune and Sirihish that developed amidst the dune traders' families.

As I mentioned in one of these earlier posts:

I don't see the language so much secretive as cultural.

I believe they choose not to speak it widely because it's reserved for the company of fellow merchants rather than secret partners. And it wouldn't just be the language, it would be a combination of things.

For example, let's say that horticulturists spoke Horta. Two of them are in a tavern speaking Horta with each other, not because they want to be secret, but because that's the culture between them.  It just happens to ALSO protect their conversation somewhat from those who don't have any business listening.

Now let's say a 'rinthi has been listening to them for months and can finally piece together some of the words. One day he starts trying to join the conversation. It would probably become quickly apparent that this person did not learn Horta as a result of their culture or profession, but as a result of listening to them because they wouldn't have the other knowledge necessary to carry on the conversation. One question about which plant can be found far to the west, perfers shade, and has a minty smell and they'll see this person is a fraud.

The language is considered secretive to those that are not part of the cutlure, and likely commonplace to the people who are.  Some folks interpret having this language as being granted a "power" or "ability" that should not be shared, so as to make them feel special or unique, but I really don't think that's the case. The fact that most non-merchants wouldn't be able to understand their business conversations is more likely a beneficial byproduct than an engineered tool.

-LoD